Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
John Palmer
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby John Palmer » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:20 pm

Hi, Martin,

I agree this is a hard one to call, but having engaged in a similar line-drawing exercise I come to a slightly different conclusion. When drawing my lines I try to use the maximum point of contrast in the underlying picture in order to optimise their alignment. In this case my l/h line attempts to follow the outer edge of the stock rail where there is a sharp contrast between rail head and timbers/ballast:
KofL Tandem.jpg

My conclusion is that, whilst the r/h stock rail is quite well aligned in a straight, the l/h stock rail is waving about all over the place! There appears to me to be a quite perceptible reverse curve in this rail between the heel ends of the planing of the two adjacent switch tongues.

I fear this commentary may involve a fair degree of thread drift - sorry, Julian! - but perhaps it has value in illustrating how difficult it can be to capture some of the subtleties in prototype track geometry.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Martin Wynne
Posts: 1172
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:11 pm

Hi John,

Hmm. You are suggesting that heavy locos taking the right-hand road have displaced the stock rail wide-to-gauge on the left? That seems very possible.

It can be difficult to draw accurately along a rail edge in a photo, because of the top corner radius on the rail, and wear patterns on the top surface. Here instead I have drawn along the shadow:

kyle_tandem4.jpg

There is some evidence of a sideways displacement, but it's unlikely to extend as far as the second switch -- the rail doesn't have a chair on the soleplate of that switch.

Looking at the intersecting shadow lines, I still think a set is the most likely explanation for the line of the rails. It will be around 1:100, so it's never going to show up very well.

On the right-hand side I have drawn a chord across the switch. If that is intended to be a ruling curve it is very poorly aligned. It looks more like a deflection to me.

Without an accurate map we can never be sure, I will see how it looks in Templot. But first a boiled egg.

cheers,

Martin.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
40+ years developing Templot. Enjoy using Templot? Join Templot Club. Be a Templot supporter.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:46 pm

For what it's worth, having tried this several dozen times, I start with a very slight left hand curve from about half way between the water tank and the turntable. to the turnout that follows this tandem - so it's a single sided tandem. I think that when the turnouts are created from the LH curve, there are slight extra bends in the LH rail.

For me the issue is getting the triangle of rails around the centre crossing looking right. I found it difficult to get the 1st turnout crossing sufficiently far back from the 2nd that the wing rails of the first didn't elide into the check rail of the second. This photo shows pretty clearly they are quite separate. YET at the same time getting the 1st turnout to at least fairly closely follow the map outline; at the same time the problem was, where is the switch? - I thought I had it too far from the water tank. In this version that I thought was my last attempt I do have the wing and check rails joining up - though it made me wonder whether these rails would be as long as Templot makes them in this situation.

I didn't try doing it manually, though having successfully tackled the irregular single slip manually maybe I should have done.

I fear this commentary may involve a fair degree of thread drift


Not at all John - I'm most grateful to you and Martin for this forensic appraisal! Though TBH what I could do with from such forensic gurus is whether it's possible to say what angle the "extra" ash road turnout crossing might be!?

By the way, would the timbers remain perpendicular to the "main" LH line. If so I haven't seen yet how to do that.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Martin Wynne
Posts: 1172
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:13 pm

Hi Julian,

I've had a go at the tandem by reference to the colour photo. It worked out quite well:

Image

Image

BOX file:
kyle_tandem_45degs.box

I've rotated it 45 degrees from the OS map to match your posts.

It contains rather more partial templates than usual in order to match the main road, which appears to be a string of straights and curves, and includes a split-deflection switch. In the end I found a 50-50 symmetrical switch produced the closest match (1:64 rotation for a B switch, both switches are B). Having multiple partial templates made it possible to use standard V-crossing angles -- 5.5 , 7.5 , 7.5

I've done most of the timber shoving.

cheers,

Martin.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
40+ years developing Templot. Enjoy using Templot? Join Templot Club. Be a Templot supporter.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:05 pm

I'm greatly privileged to have half my layout designed by Mr Templot himself! :D

Very many thanks indeed Martin. I haven't opened the file yet not having access to my pc till tomorrow.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:16 am

Track plan re-designed to incorporate Martin's bespoke tandem. I've played with the dummy vehicle tool on Templot to make a Black 5 length vehicle (including tender). It "runs" on two bogies so the overhang will be less on curves. With a bit of luck there'll be just enough room for a loco to come up the shed road while another is in the ash road, the length of which depends where I put the coal platform. And there's room in front of the shed doors too.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1972
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Noel » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:41 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:the length of which depends where I put the coal platform


The coal platform is shown on the map - the black line on the other side of the track to the water tank. It runs from 1/3rd of the length of the tank almost to the turntable. Photographs suggest that the ash road is only long enough for two wagons, so say 40 ft plus the clearance necessary to ensure parked vehicles don't foul the shed exit road.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:19 pm

Yes Noel, I see now, and the photo at the top of this page shows the same thing if I'd only looked properly - thanks for pointing that out. It was this photo that had me thinking locos were emptied of their ash on this road - https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index ... t_id=83407
Well perhaps they did, but blocked that RH road from the tandem while they were doing so. Can't see much evidence of ash on most of the other photos that have appeared on this thread*. Perhaps there was a clean up in advance of the photographers arriving. Does anyone know, would ash from the Cummings Clan goods locos, and Black 5s, have been emptied vertically down into the pit (situated on the RH road by the shed door)?

* - actually, plenty of ash on the older photos from Jeremy

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1972
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Noel » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:21 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:It was this photo that had me thinking locos were emptied of their ash on this road - Well perhaps they did, but blocked that RH road from the tandem while they were doing so


I believe this photo pre-dates the construction of the ash road.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:17 am

I've had a go on Templot at sleepering (interleaving; interlacing?) the ash road turnout that was being discussed on the previous page. I wonder if people think the result is a credible representation of such a turnout, bearing in mind that I'm not trying to produce an exact model, just one that makes sense; and what Martin wrote recently on the Templot Club

In lightly used yards, depots and sidings, the usual rules about rail joints and sleeper spacings often don't apply. Almost anything goes. There is no need for standard rail lengths to be used, or for the joints to be opposite one another, or for the joints to be closely supported by the adjacent sleepers. The only fixed rule is that the chairs at a rail joint must be far enough apart to leave room for a fishplate. And even then short 2-bolt fishplates may be used instead of the normal 4-bolt.


Of course Kyle might not quite come into the category of "lightly used". The rough basis of this is the CR drawing. A different approach would be to use the LNER drawing as a basis whereby I think the sleepers would generally be closer together, and long timbers used for the crossing area. The date I'm making the layout represent is early BR - before signalling was renewed is my intention.

Interleaved ash road CR.PNG

CR Interleaved point drawing.PNG

LNER 1 in 8 interleaved.PNG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

BorderCounties
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby BorderCounties » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:20 pm

Julian

While you have obviously enjoyed yourself "shoving timbers" in Templot, a much more satisfying approach would be to print out your chosen template (e.g.B7) without any sleepers i.e. rails only option, and push your ply sleepers around on the template. It's very tactile, you can view it from all directions and, if you want to start again, easily moved back to a pile of sleepers and a bare template.

All of my turnouts are sleepered - the North British didn't like paying for long timbers! The only concession I make is to use a 12" x 9' sleeper under the crossing nose, otherwise 8'6" for "main" lines and 9' for sidings.

Then there was this:

[img]
IMG_1104.JPG
[/img]
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

bécasse
Posts: 374
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 am

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby bécasse » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:19 pm

BorderCounties wrote:All of my turnouts are sleepered - the North British didn't like paying for long timbers!


It wasn't so much the length that was important as the width of sleeper required to support 4-hole chairs necessarily mounted at an ever increasing angle as the two routes separated. Sleepers 14" (or even 12") wide are disproportionately expensive compared with the standard 9" width ones as they have to be cut from much bigger (and thus more scarce) trees. One answer to this problem was the use of 3-hole, or even 2-hole, chairs, the other answer was sleepered turnouts. 3-hole chairs turned out to be optimum answer, which is why eventually they were so widely adopted.

Lindsay G
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:16 am

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Lindsay G » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:34 pm

I recognise the top 2 drawings in Julian's post - they're 2 parts of a 3 part tracing I took from a CR drawing held in the National Archives in Edinburgh (RHP120106) headed "Double bladed catch point with crossing, 1:10 crossing 12ft blades". They're certainly getting around! Photographs weren't allowed at the time. What surprises me is the rakish angle of some sleepers in the drawing - if anything modellers will tend to make them look neater and perfectly spaced in case they look wrong. From another Caley track drawing I have for a crossover the sleepers are spaced much further apart (4' between some sleepers!) and a diamond crossing is standard sleepers throughout, no wider sleepers, no long timbers.

However, the NBR did not seem averse to the odd use of longer timbers and wider sleepers :

NBR -track1.jpg

A drawing of trackwork is one thing, how it was laid might be another. Whose going to be around to argue? If anything I'd say the sleepers look quite tight together 2/3rds to the right and five sleepers on the lower road should be more towards right angles to the track (angled more if need be to lie under the end of the check rail). Overall, don't worry about it, JFDI.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:15 pm

Thanks chaps. :)
Lindsay I wondered if it was OK to post that image which is on the Templot Club. Let me know if I should delete it.
Yes, I will soon JFDI (I had to look up the meaning of that!)
Borders Counties I find it much easier experimenting on Templot and it showed me the distance between sleepers. Rather fun is the randomising of sleeper ends that it can do for you. Below is a final version with the linked siding and connection to the tandem, sleepers arranged to fit.
Yes Becasse the question for me will be which of the Masokits chairs I should use at the crossing and the switch.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:13 pm

Well here is the sleepered turnout as I've made it. I've played fast and loose taking advantage of Martin's word that basically anything goes in yards. So in my scenario the crossing nose sleeper has been changed for a timber that links both roads together, and the switch sleepers have been renewed with timbers. Sleepers are 9ft while the timbers 8' 6". I was running out of some of the Masokits special chairs - check rails are fixed with normal running chairs, but they aren't terribly different. Three and a half weeks was the most recent cheque in the post to package through the door time from Masokits. Some of the chairs on the wing rails don't look quite right perhaps.

The loose heel switch is fixed with a phosphor bronze "fishplate" on one road, on the other the rail swivels in the jaws of a Brassmasters etched fishplate that's soldered to the closure rail. How this will last will remain to be seen.



Four turnouts made now, two to go plus a catch point. All the points have undercut blades, and I'm still "right chuffed" that they actually work, and that it's not necessary to have joggles for reliable running of propelled wagons, if the blades are made following Tony Wilkins' instructions on this Forum. This assumes vehicles have some form of suspension - this layout is not intended for vehicles without suspension.



A few photos, I'll be getting some plastic fishplates for the naked joins, a couple more cosmetic fishplates still to add.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:09 am

I wonder if I could ask any of you chaps on this Forum who gave me such a lot of help what you think of the latest state of play on this project. The issue being that I redesigned the single slip, thus needing to alter the geometry design of the surrounding tracks. The single slip is now made, but the surrounding areas highlighted in yellow below have caused me a lot of trouble.

So my question is whether these areas are put together properly in Templot, whether I have used the 'make simple link' and 'transition' functions correctly. (The timbering is all over the place as I'd got it perfect for a version that I then realised was no good! Templot does funny things with the altered sleepering when using those functions.)

Kyle 15 December 2021.PNG


Kyle 14 Dec improved catchpoint road.box


Also some photos that I've used for reference
Screenshot_20210926-150548_Chrome.jpg

Single slip view.PNG

The next one shows the engine shed road with a check rail, a feature I would like to include, though I intend to make the catchpoint as in the first diesel era photo.
httpswww.ambaile.org.ukdetailen276381EN27638-the-main-railway-line-entering-kyle.htm.png

Photo 6.PNG


While writing, I might as well put here my plan is to make the old HR signalling, which BR renewed within a couple of years of nationalisation. This photo shows the old signalling coincided with this catchpoint, though for how long I perhaps ought to investigate.

Screenshot_2020-05-24-19-54-52 (1).png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Jeremy Suter
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:56 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Jeremy Suter » Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:47 pm

Been sorting some more photos of Kyle shed
55216 Passing Kyle shed.
img20230406_16193873.jpg

55216 Taking coach past Kyle shed 11.7.56 E.R.Morten.
img20230406_16202712.jpg

17925 stands outside Kyle shed 18.6.37 H.C.Casserley.
img20230406_16210698.jpg

17930 Kyle shed yard C1932 G.Harrop.
img20230406_16215342.jpg

17955 and 14401 Kyle
img20230406_16225453.jpg

17954 Kyle shed 14.6.37 A.G.Ellis
img20230406_16233938.jpg

17953 Kyle shed 18.6.37 H.C.Casserley.
img20230406_16244752.jpg

img20230406_16254437.jpg

17951 Kyle shed yard C1937 C.Turner
img20230406_16262792.jpg

17951 Kyle shed H.C.Casserley
img20230406_16271512.jpg

44724 Passing Kyle shed 11.7.56 E.R.Morten
img20230406_16280250.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Tips and tricks in machine tool practice viewtopic.php?f=132&t=6350

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:49 am

Very many thanks Jeremy. Lots of interest there. The shunting of a single coach. The piles of ash are a welcome contradiction of what I'd seen written about the place always being immaculately clean. Lots of photos show that also to be the case - at the time they were taken! Shame the rake of four coaches weren't the other way round - I'd be interested to know what the rear two were. Unfortunately although I've made 8 locos I have none of these so that is the next priority loco stock-wise.

I took a photo of the tandem to compare with the one at the top of this page. Doesn't really work till I've got rid of everything white and managed to get more depth of field for focus. (Acknowledgements and thanks to Martin who designed it in Templot from the photo :))
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Julian Roberts on Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

gavin
Web Team
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:03 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby gavin » Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:03 am

Hi Julian

If you want a technique for better depth of field, assuming a suitable camera, see the following about 'Focus Stacking'. Works fine giving an excellent end result.

https://www.photoshopessentials.com/photo- editing/focus-stack-images-photoshop/

If you have the tech, and thus the images, but not any suitable software send me a suitable email and I am sure I can arrange it!

Gavin
Scalefour News Editor

User avatar
David B
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby David B » Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:30 am

There is a tendency to go in too close - I do it myself too often and then get cross. With modern cameras it is possible to back off, take a picture with a wider field and then crop. This can often overcome the apparent lack of depth of field.

Jeremy Suter
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:56 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Jeremy Suter » Fri Apr 07, 2023 4:07 pm

Hi Julian
Just a few more photos of Kyle shed. Sorry to say I cannot find any other loco except Black 5s and the 044t on shed at Kyle in BR days did any other class go there after the HR Locos were withdrawn I would have thought a Crab would be powerful enough to use the line.
44992 Kyle shed 11.9.53 B.Hilton
img20230407_16211144.jpg

45320 Kyle shed 5.9.52 N.Harrop
img20230407_16220003.jpg

D5114 Kyle shed 1963 K,Swain
img20230407_16225699.jpg

17951 and 17953 Kyle shed
img20230407_16235838.jpg

45320 Kyle shed 5.9.52 A.C.Gilbert
img20230407_16243564.jpg

454xx Kyle shed 28.7.59 W.A.Brown
img20230407_16251780.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Tips and tricks in machine tool practice viewtopic.php?f=132&t=6350

User avatar
Martin Wynne
Posts: 1172
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:34 am

Hi Julian,

I found this photo lurking in the Templot Club archives.

I have no idea what or where it is, but it's a great shot and reminded me of your Kyle project:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?m ... .2336/full

Image

cheers,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. Enjoy using Templot? Join Templot Club. Be a Templot supporter.

Jeremy Suter
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:56 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Jeremy Suter » Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:57 am

Martin Wynne wrote:Hi Julian,

I found this photo lurking in the Templot Club archives.

I have no idea what or where it is, but it's a great shot and reminded me of your Kyle project:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?m ... .2336/full

Image

cheers,

Martin.

HR Small ben 14405 Ben Rinnes Thurso shed 5.28
Tips and tricks in machine tool practice viewtopic.php?f=132&t=6350

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Apr 08, 2023 2:35 pm

Thanks so much Gavin David Martin, and Jeremy (again!). (Been busy at the York show, sorry for delayed response.) Re the tandem photo I took that with my phone - no point going more pukka till I've done some painting over the white track template I think but many thanks for the offer and advice.

Another great set of photos Jeremy. As far as I can gather just Black 5s normally ran the services, after overlapping with the Superheated Goods around my time period 1948-9. I've seen a few other classes in photos, though nothing bigger, but not a Crab. Crabs did go up the mainline from Perth to Inverness.

[Rule 1 will suppose that traffic became much heavier than reality after the war necessitating any available Scottish based loco - of the ones I've made! 8-) ]

Your last photo with three in steam - I wonder if that was a pose - but gives me a good excuse for a typical operating situation, like the shunting one previously with the 0-4-4 (which I have made).

Martin - Yes, anything is useful! Interesting that one of the men is doing all the heaving, amongst other things of note.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:03 pm

Having now made most of the track I've gradually realised how much some of it was altered over the years. I think probably mostly for when the Black 5s were introduced by the LMS. The obvious thing was the turntable being enlarged. I wonder if the loose heel switches on the original tandem were As? - photo from Jeremy on the previous page. As I've built it (with kind help from Martin on the design) to match the photos at the bottom of the previous page of the replacement tandem, with flexible B switches, there isn't room for a Black 5 to sit between the toes and another Black 5 sitting on the turntable - except by lengthening that little section of track, if I have enough room left with the turntable as well. Hopefully I should do, but otherwise some operational shuffling will be required, I'll need to get the serviced loco out of the way onto the shed road nearer the mainline before bringing in the loco requiring servicing form the station. I wonder if that had to be done in reality. (Actually I'm very unlikely to build two Black 5s, hopefully one and a Clan Goods will appear someday.)

Turntable 2.PNG


I think the slip looks as though it was originally curving in this photo, as I surmised from the OS map and half built originally. Then other more recent photos showed it was straight, as built and now installed.

20220812_122748.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Return to “Layouts and Operations”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClaudeBot and 1 guest