Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:41 pm

Here is the latest addition to the trackwork. A 1:7 single slip, which is part of the exchange arrangement with the industrial sidings complex.
DSCF0476a.JPG

DSCF0477a.JPG

Tony.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:06 pm

+1
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

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RobM
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby RobM » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:12 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:+1


You've starting something Martin........
+1 from me.......
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

Julian Roberts
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:42 pm

Thanks for your reply Tony which made complete sense. I am impressed by what must be your virtuosity with the hole punching and riveting machine - is it one of the original (Studiolith?) ones? My attempts with a borrowed one were considerably slower than cutting pcb strip to length and gapping it - I do have a stash of it from an abandoned project of years ago so was unaware it is now pricey.

I will be interested when you go on to cover the gauge widening and other issues you mention. By the way, I assume your C&L flexi track will not be undergauge, which has been an issue in my experience. I think your trackwork is S4 rather than P4? - with a Back to Back of 17.85 (if I remember your figure correctly from another thread) any undergauge issue will be that much more critical than for P4 modellers...?

To completely agree with Martin and Rob, here's for your posts

+1!

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:50 pm

Hi Julian.
For many years, I used to demonstrate track building at Scaleforum and elsewhere, until displaced by fellow NAG member and functional track guru Howard. One of the penalties of being a demonstrator is having to show the current society products.
I started with a Studiolith press tool and over the years acquired one of most patterns from Alan Gibson to the Brook Smith type that I still use today. I have had to overhaul it once as I had all but worn the business end out.

I have already checked the gauge of my C&L flexitrack after reading about the gauge narrowing issue and can report that it is fine. That must have been a good batch. Yes I do work to S4 clearances for the pointwork but the track gauge is of course the same. I think I prefer Martin's S4-X (exact) designation as this removes any ambiguity. The standard P4 / S4 just causes confusion.

As it happens, I have spent most of today cutting and gaping some PCB timbering for a tandem turnout and a diamond crossing in a slightly narrower gauge. I am sure it would have been quicker in ply and rivet.
Regards and thanks for the compliments.
Tony.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:46 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:Here is the latest addition to the trackwork. A 1:7 single slip, which is part of the exchange arrangement with the industrial sidings complex.
DSCF0476a.JPG
DSCF0477a.JPG
Tony.

Tony,

I am fascinated by the check rail (is that the right term?) on the inner curve. Could you explain a bit?

Tim
Tim Lee

Terry Bendall
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:15 am

Julian Roberts wrote:My attempts with a borrowed one were considerably slower than cutting pcb strip to length and gapping it


Tony Wilkins wrote: I have built a lot of track over the years and refined my techniques in the process.


Most jobs of course are a lot quicker to do once you have built up some experience and had practice. A useful tip for gapping PCB sleepers is to use a small (20mm - 25mm dia.) sanding disc (not a cutting disc) in a mini drill. Hold the disc at a slight angle and the copper will very quickly be removed. The advantages are the speed of the operation, it can be done after the track is built, and you get a sloping edge rather than a defined cut which usually has to be concealed. Once you have a flexible backing disc the sanding discs themselves can be made by cutting circles from a sheet of silicon carbide paper (wet and dry) and fixing them with double sided tape. A lot cheaper than buying discs. Not my idea but one which is mentioned by Colin Craig in his instructions for building his turnouts.

Terry Bendall

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:48 am

Terry Bendall wrote:A useful tip for gapping PCB sleepers

A different approach is to stick a narrow strip of masking tape along the middle of the timbers. Spray the entire turnout with rattle-can red oxide primer. Or grey if preferred. Peel off the masking strips. Rough the edges of the peeled areas. Avoid damaging the paint on the rails. Dunk the whole thing in ferric chloride solution for 30 mins or so, agitating occasionally. Rinse off and wash thoroughly. The copper will have been etched away. Dry in warm place for an hour. Test for insulation. Another light coat of primer down the centre of the timbers. Clean paint from rail tops. Finish painting after laying.

Ferric Chloride crystals or fluid (PCB etchant) are available from electronics suppliers (e.g. Maplin: https://www.maplin.co.uk/p/etching-fluid-1-litre-n54df ) Can be re-used several times if etching only small areas.

Also neutraliser for safe disposal of used etchant: https://www.maplin.co.uk/p/pcb-etchant- ... iser-n18kh

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

Julian Roberts
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:58 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:Hi Julian.
For many years, I used to demonstrate track building at Scaleforum and elsewhere, until displaced by fellow NAG member and functional track guru Howard.


Tony, without wishing in any way to deflect or delay your work, if you ever had or wanted to make time I for one would be really pleased to see a step by step photo sequence of you building a bog standard turnout. You are the author of the official guide in the Digest and I have followed that. Photos would be icing on the cake. Keith has an excellent photo guide, though he refers to another site for the blades. Howard has written extremely well in the Snooze. Very slight variations, if there are any between you, are always interesting and give people alternative ways of doing things, just as you have talked about re sleepering.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:02 pm

With PCB sleepers, I cut them all to length and place them on the template, with double sided tape, to be able to mark the gaps with a felt tip pen. I then remove them in turn and gap them with a needle file. Not sure what the type is called, but it has two curved faces one slightly flatter than the other, which the one I use.
I do like the etched approach and ideal if one has a lot to do.
Regards
Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:56 pm

Hi Julian.
I was indeed the main contributor of the track construction section of the Scalefour digest all those years ago.
The problem is that with experience one's methods evolve. Although they work just as well now as they did then, there are some things I do very differently today. For instance, the digest instructs you to produce a sharp wing rail knuckle bend. That was the perceived wisdom at the time, but I cringe at that now. This bend was just that, a curve, not an angle. On the prototype the flangeway gap is 1 3/4" but the knuckle gap is more like 2 1/4" for bullhead crossings. The bend radius was near enough the crossing angle in feet I believe. If you try to produce a sharp angle and your alignment of the two knuckle bends is out, the likelihood is that the gap will be under size resulting the the back of the wheel hitting the corner of the wing rail. The problem now is that everybody has a copy of the old instructions and overturning an established bad practice will not be easy, but the documents do need updating.
I have been trying to build up a collection of pictures of the construction methods I use for a while with a view to doing something of the kind you mention. It is not easy to photograph yourself doing filing or soldering as you need both hands to do the job. The need for this was brought home to me quite forcibly whilst holding a series of tutorials on basic track construction for the Nottingham Area Group (NAG) recently.
It would be much easier to refer to a set of step by step pictures than keep explaining it manually.
I also have 4 Flatbottom Turnouts and a single slip to construct soon, which will be a learning curve, which I intend to use to document the process.
Regards
Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:16 pm

And last but by no means least I come to Tim's query. I think a picture and a thousand words is appropriate at this juncture.
Curve 1.JPG

Here are the sections of the curve into the industrial estate laid out on the conservatory floor.
Curve 2.JPG

The end point (bottom left) goes into a headshunt behind the platform. It is the first time I have done this and it just strikes you how big it all is, but I know it will all fit because Templot tells me so.
Brimsdown036.JPG

The real thing after the trackwork was simplified circa 1971. Check rails abound as both roads were checked due to the radius.
Brimsdown037.JPG

View from the road overbridge taken in the opposite direction after the tracks were closed a few years later, my velocipede leant against the fence.
Regards
Tony.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:26 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:And last but by no means least I come to Tim's query.
The real thing after the trackwork was simplified circa 1971. Check rails abound.


So the simple answer is because they are on the prototype.

But why? Is it because the train speeds are such and the radii are such that they become necessary to prevent derailment? ie preventative ... Or were they fitted as a remedial because derailments had occurred?

or for some other reason?

Are they actually necessary on the model as well ... or simply cosmetic?

Wondered if you knew ... they certainly add to the trackwork interest.
Tim Lee

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:57 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:For instance, the digest instructs you to produce a sharp wing rail knuckle bend. That was the perceived wisdom at the time, but I cringe at that now. This bend was just that, a curve, not an angle. On the prototype the flangeway gap is 1 3/4" but the knuckle gap is more like 2 1/4" for bullhead crossings. The bend radius was near enough the crossing angle in feet I believe. If you try to produce a sharp angle and your alignment of the two knuckle bends is out, the likelihood is that the gap will be under size resulting the the back of the wheel hitting the corner of the wing rail. The problem now is that everybody has a copy of the old instructions and overturning an established bad practice will not be easy

Hi Tony,

I'm also a guilty party there. For a long time Templot templates showed a sharp knuckle bend even though I knew perfectly well that it should be radiused to a wider knuckle gap. The reason was that the templates were originally for my own use only, and I felt that they didn't need to include details of which I was well aware. It made the coding are lot easier to leave out such detail. Over the years I have gradually refined the templates, and nowadays they show a radiused knuckle bend which you can set to whatever radius you wish. The default setting is indeed equal to the unit crossing angle in feet.

The problem of correcting misinformation which has spread far and wide for years is formidable. I think we just have to live with it. In this case we are not helped by some misleading prototype drawings, for example this one from the Midland Railway. It is all but physically impossible to make an infinitely sharp bend in rail such that the knuckle gap is the same as the flangeway gap, if the rails are to remain exactly aligned to the crossing:

Image

Even more difficult in the case of rails inclined at 1:20 (as shown there), for which you need a conical mandrel, and they are also required to fit in a chair at the knuckle.

Notice also the curly end on the wing rail, which serves no purpose whatsoever beyond a simple flare angle. Even if the radius is dimensioned.

cheers,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:37 pm

Stepping back a bit!
Tony Wilkins wrote:
Armchair Modeller wrote:Tony,

If you are unfamiliar with the 'Britain From Above' site, then do make sure you register with the site. Then log in on each visit. This allows you to see very large magnifications of the images.

Apologies if you knew this already.


No need to apologise.
Not having used the site, all advise is welcome.
I did once come across company called Aero films who had a few Ariel pictures of Brimsdown, but they were very expensive at the time.
Regards
Tony.


As a follow up to this post I have received an email which helps to clarify the situation regarding the source of many of the aerial photos on this site. I quote below.

"Living in London I'm enjoying seeing how you are developing what looks to be a large and unusual railway model
based on a busy East London local line. A change from rural branch line, or equally rural main line come to that!

You mentioned Aerofilms, a commercial aerial photography company. They amassed a huge collection of images
over many years (reportedly over a million!), and those for England have now been acquired by Historic England
(a 'spin-off' from English Heritage).
They are held at HE's National Monuments Record in Swindon. Many are still to be catalogued, but they form
the basis for the 'Britain from Above' material on that website."

Regards
Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:26 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:And last but by no means least I come to Tim's query.
The real thing after the trackwork was simplified circa 1971. Check rails abound.


So the simple answer is because they are on the prototype.

But why? Is it because the train speeds are such and the radii are such that they become necessary to prevent derailment? ie preventative ... Or were they fitted as a remedial because derailments had occurred?

or for some other reason?

Are they actually necessary on the model as well ... or simply cosmetic?

Wondered if you knew ... they certainly add to the trackwork interest.


Hi Tim.
I don't really have a simple answer to that. A Ministry of Transport rule requires all curves with a radius of 10 Chains or less must be provided with a check rail fitted to the inside rail of the curve. In some cases a check rail is fitted to curves with a greater radius than this. I always understood that this was mandatory for passenger lines but only a recommendation for goods lines. 10 chains is 2640mm in scale or approx 8' 8", so all our typical model curves should really be fitted with check rails.
In model terms they are largely cosmetic and certainly so in my case (although I shall never know what would have happened if I had omitted them) but they do make such a nice feature rarely modelled. The inner radius of these curves comes down to 5 chains but the speeds would have been very low, shunting speed, flange squeal being very noticeable. As well as vans, opens and mineral wagons, there were a fare number of tube wagons used for traffic, so with their longer wheelbase, perhaps check rails were considered prudent.
Regards
Tony.

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby petermeyer » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:15 pm

Hi Tony,

I'm also a guilty party there. For a long time Templot templates showed a sharp knuckle bend even though I knew perfectly well that it should be radiused to a wider knuckle gap. The reason was that the templates were originally for my own use only, and I felt that they didn't need to include details of which I was well aware. It made the coding are lot easier to leave out such detail. Over the years I have gradually refined the templates, and nowadays they show a radiused knuckle bend which you can set to whatever radius you wish. The default setting is indeed equal to the unit crossing angle in feet.

The problem of correcting misinformation which has spread far and wide for years is formidable.


Martin

Thanks for clearing this up. How would one go about correcting the mis-built wing rails, following the previous advice, without resorting to a complete rebuild? Would filing suffice?

Peter

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:24 pm

Hi Tim,

Here's a 1978 photo at Shrewsbury, showing continuous check rails on the lines curving to the right. If you look closely you can see that the check rail on the right is not connected to the check rail in the turnout. There is a gap of 4 timbers between them to allow access to the fishplate bolts. The running rails are flat-bottom, with bullhead for the check rail. This is easier to fit in long lengths, because of the foot on flat-bottom rail:

Image

The right-hand line is the Up Main from Crewe, with the Up Platform line in the foreground.

This is the location of the 1907 derailment, caused by excessive speed on these curves. The check rails suggest that the railway was still very mindful of the disaster 71 years later. Here's a pic:

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/pho ... 96_DON_C_4

Martin.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:46 pm

petermeyer wrote:Martin. Thanks for clearing this up. How would one go about correcting the mis-built wing rails, following the previous advice, without resorting to a complete rebuild? Would filing suffice?

Hi Peter,

Do you need to, if they are running ok? Bear in mind that the P4 flangeway gap is already overscale at 2" scale, so just about right for knuckle gaps if you have built them tight to the P4 crossing flangeway gauge.

Prototypes do vary. On ex-North Eastern lines the radiused knuckle bends do look quite obvious in some photos. But on other lines knuckles can look quite sharp.

I doubt you have made them ultra sharp. Using hand tools it is impossible to put a dead sharp bend in rail, they will have small radius already. You could increase that with a little filing. But don't overdo it, otherwise the narrowing of the rail head will look worse than the the sharp bend.

regards,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:44 pm

Here's a follow-up to the knuckle gap discussion. These are the REA crossing dimensions, showing the knuckle gap (in mm) on the right:

Image

Note that these dimensions are all silly metric conversions from the original imperial dimensions. For example 2.692m is in fact 8ft-10in. 3.455m is in fact 11ft-4in.

p.s. there is a typo in the column of knuckle gaps. The 60 - 59 - 62 sequence should be 62 - 60 - 59.

For comparison, the standard flangeway gap is 44.5mm (1.3/4in).

Note that GWR and BR(W) dimensions differ.

I first posted this table on the Templot web site in 2002. So I have no defence at all for not updating the Templot templates until several years later. Image

More similar info at: http://templot.com/companion/prototype_information.php

Image

Martin.
Last edited by Martin Wynne on Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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John Palmer
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby John Palmer » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:50 pm

There is an interesting LMS film entitled "Junction Renewal", available on Youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjraY7L9Jig. At 4:07 there is footage of a wing rail being checked for appropriate inclination of the closure rail, followed by film of a vee being manufactured. This includes views of the machine used to put the twist into the point and splice rails so as to impart to them the appropriate inclination (at 5.01). I think this may be the full size equivalent of the conical mandrel to which Martin was referring. A device it would not be too hard to replicate for 4mm scale model track, perhaps?

petermeyer
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby petermeyer » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:13 am

Hi Peter,

Do you need to, if they are running ok? Bear in mind that the P4 flangeway gap is already overscale at 2" scale, so just about right for knuckle gaps if you have built them tight to the P4 crossing flangeway gauge.

Prototypes do vary. On ex-North Eastern lines the radiused knuckle bends do look quite obvious in some photos. But on other lines knuckles can look quite sharp.

I doubt you have made them ultra sharp. Using hand tools it is impossible to put a dead sharp bend in rail, they will have small radius already. You could increase that with a little filing. But don't overdo it, otherwise the narrowing of the rail head will look worse than the the sharp bend.

regards,

Martin.


Hi Martin

I guess I am trying to recreate this:

Pages-from-LNWR-Track-Book.jpg


These look far from sharp. Following the previous advice however, I made mine sharper. I would not describe the running as OK and maybe this is partly to blame. I did not appreciate the subtleties at the time and just trusted the advice.

Regards

Peter

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Will L
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Will L » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:36 am

Is there any suggestion that this knuckle gap was actually necessary for good running, or was it just the inevitable consequence of using bent rail?

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:07 am

Will L wrote:Is there any suggestion that this knuckle gap was actually necessary for good running, or was it just the inevitable consequence of using bent rail?

Hi Will,

If the angle is exactly correct and the rail exactly aligned, and the check rail correctly positioned, and the wheelset back-to-flange setting is correct, it shouldn't make any difference. The wheelset should be under the control of the check rail, and the flange is then prevented from doing more than kissing the rail at the knuckle regardless of its shape.

However, if the check rail and wheelset are not ... etc, etc, having a radius to the knuckle is helpful for traffic in the trailing direction, and potentially harmful for traffic in the facing direction.

But the worst condition of all is a sharp knuckle bend which is not exactly aligned. A radiused knuckle has a bit more leeway in positioning before the real grief begins:

Image

regards,

Martin.
Last edited by Martin Wynne on Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:25 am

petermeyer wrote:I guess I am trying to recreate this:

Pages-from-LNWR-Track-Book.jpg

These look far from sharp. Following the previous advice however, I made mine sharper. I would not describe the running as OK and maybe this is partly to blame. I did not appreciate the subtleties at the time and just trusted the advice.

Hi Peter,

Those bends do look well radiused in the drawings. But that is just what the draughtsman put on the paper. What do they look like in photos when all bolted up tight? In some photos knuckle bends can look quite sharp. Here's a few:

Image
A new bullhead crossing. The knuckle gap doesn't look significantly wider than the flangeway gap. Note the changing pattern of rail wear indicating the conical bend and 1:20 inclined rail.


Image
Gauntletted track on the Boyne Viaduct at Drogheda. Not much visible knuckle radius there.


Image
Sharp-looking knuckles in the foreground. Also an interesting signal and a Barry slip.

Aplogies to Tony that we seem to be drifting away from his project, although he started this knuckle bend business. Image

cheers,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...


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