Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:32 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:Unfortunately, none of the detail maps I have of the area go quite that far south and the NLS maps for London don't go quite that far north as yet, or didn't the last time I looked, so I can't say definitively one way or the other.

Hi Tony,

There are 50"/mile maps on old-maps.co.uk for 1966 and 1974:

duck_lees_1966.png

duck_lees_1974.png

Unfortunately their scanning is poorer quality than NLS, and if you want to zoom in further there is a £10/month subscription.

I can't see any watercourses near the track, so the expansion joint mystery remains.

cheers,

Martin.
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Dave Holt
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Dave Holt » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:11 am

Perhaps the expansion joint was installed in anticipation of replacing the 60 ft jointed rails with continuous welded which was not carried out?
Dave.

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:26 pm

I think Dave is probably closest to the answer. The era I am modelling was one of great change and the area suffered greatly from this. Green Road North used to be part of Duck Lees Lane before the level crossing was closed in January 1964 along with that at Ponders End when a new road over the railway was opened. The two maps show several differences. The iron footbridge was replaced with a concrete one in 1968 (as part of the electrification extension scheme) complete with ramps in the lower map and the loop has gone, so the expansion joint would not have been in the right place as when the CWR did eventually come. it extended further south than this. There was also the change from 110A to 113A section rail about this time.
Interesting that the milepost has changed. Did somebody move Liverpool Street Station when I wasn't looking?
Note also the two siding ends shown at the bottom of the map. These are the ends of the headshunt for Ponders End yard. The stop on the left was a conventional rail built design but the square to the right was a large lump of concrete and is still there albeit covered in brambles. About the last remaining vestige of the goods yard.
Regards
Tony.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:53 pm

+1
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Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:26 pm

To illustrate my last post above, here a a couple of pictures the show the changes.
The previous iron footbridge at Duck Lees Lane.
Brimsdown017.jpg

Absolutely full of character.
The lean to extension to the sentry box was built to house two wheels that separately controlled the crossing gates, which opened outwards. This was done when the goods loop was put in by the LNER in 1932.
The precast concrete replacement with the double ramps is shown in this 1970 picture, steps to the right and left and overgrown goods yard sidings.
LV009.jpg

The two buffer stops including concrete lump can be seen just in front of the right hand ramp.
Before I leave the subject of footbridges, I have noticed that the GER did not seem to have a particularly standard design. I am aware that these were bought in from outside suppliers, but there were three footbridges between Ponders End and Brimsdown, all different. The one at Ponders End had solid plate sides although the steps had lattice sides. That at Brimsdown itself had a more open lattice style, that I am going to have to try to replicate somehow. It was replaced by a subway in 1968. Not conducive to railway observation. Many footbridges survived the earlier electrification scheme as they were simply raised up on new brick and concrete bases, but not on this stretch.
The tall building looming over the houses is the Alma pub shown on the map. This building is still there although how it has survived all these years is something of a mystery as it has closed several times over the years.
The loco is the celebrity Brush type 2 D5518 with white roof. Rebuilt after a serious collision with a BTH type 1 at Stratford depot. Although I have seen several pictures of the damage done to D5518, I have never found any of the unfortunate BTH it supposedly collided with, which undoubtedly was scrapped as a result. Because the Southern region did not have any steam heat capability after steam finished, they had to borrow a loco for special occasions and D5518 was often the chosen loco.
Incidentally, the first 5 wagons in the train appear to have been used to carry china clay and I can't think of any reason why they would be traveling this line.
I came to the conclusion many years ago, that if one waited long enough, just about anything that ran on rails could be seen on the Lee Valley line.
Regards.
Tony.
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:46 pm

Back to the task in hand.
After lots of practice folding baseplates, I have managed to get the cycle down to about 3 minutes a piece and in the process come to appreciate the amount of thought that has clearly gone into the design of these. I have gone through 3 and a bit frets so far and ended up with
DSCF1167.jpg

which has made up into this, the inside track.
DSCF1168.jpg

DSCF1169.jpg

Of that pile I have 6 left.
One thing I have discovered the hard way is that there is not much scope for adjustment once everything is soldered together. I needed to adjust the gauge at a joint where things had moved during soldering and managed to wreck the base plate in the process, so had to replace it.
Yes, it is an awful lot of work to produce a decent length of track, but Colin's products do at least give one a realistic chance of producing the seemingly impossible.
Regards
Tony.
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:13 pm

My final post for today concerns the circuit diagram I posted on page 17 on the 3rd September.

As noted some time ago the circuit shown in that post has since been modified to cure a couple problems that showed up during the testing phase. Such is the nature of design and development. The revised circuit is shown here and should be used by anyone considering using a similar system.
Relay card Din.PNG

The differences are that D11 to D20 have been added to allow the relays to release correctly and C5 has been added to cure the switch contact bounce problem.
A couple of other components have been renumbered as a result.
I have also edited the original post to reflect this change and reduce the need to search the thread for it.

If anybody would like further information on the electrical side of this project, I would be prepared to start a separate thread under Brimsdown Electrics rather than fill up this thread with a minority interest. Either PM me or ask here if interested. I am not exactly expecting a rush of interest.
Regards
Tony.
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Noel
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Noel » Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:18 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:Incidentally, the first 5 wagons in the train have been used to carry china clay and I can't think of any reason why they would be traveling this line.


I don't think they are in china clay traffic. The WR used Highfits for longer distance clay traffic [both china and ball], but most of that travelled into the Midlands and beyond via Bristol, and the wagons were sheeted. I don't know about traffic from Wareham, but, as you say, there seems to be no reason it would travel via north London. There is another problem, in that the WR's fleet for this traffic was specifically dedicated and acquired roller bearing axleboxes, I think in the late 1960s. All wagons in that fleet were wooden bodied, as rust contamination was not acceptable [a corrugated end is OK for clay traffic as it was wood lined]. The photo, however, shows one wooden Highbar and four steel bodied wagons. Clay opens got covered in dust when they were tipped at the docks, but clay traffic Highfits in photographs seem to show far less external effect from the load.

It's just a guess, but my suggestion is lime traffic from Kent.
Regards
Noel

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:05 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:Yes, it is an awful lot of work to produce a decent length of track,


It certainly is but to my mind it is well worth it. On Elcot Road we used Colin's BR2 baseplates. Having got them assembled, it took about 2 hours to produce an 18 inch length. We only did a 5 foot length for the bay platform. :) Since Elcot Road is third rail we should have used BR3 type which at the time of construction I did not think were available. Subsequently I found that Masokits make this type. :( It will not get changed now however.

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby JFS » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:47 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:If anybody would like further information on the electrical side of this project, I would be prepared to start a separate thread under Brimsdown Electrics rather than fill up this thread with a minority interest.


Hello Tony,

Speaking personally, I think that a thread on this would be a good thing to do as I feel you have some very interesting things to say. I also suspect that there will be much more to come on this susbject!

Keep up the good work!

Best Wishes,

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby ken kirk » Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:41 pm

Dear all,
Just found this advert for a mini circular saw on Facebook.
Says it has a blade for cutting PCB.
no idea if it works. Anyone want to try??
https://theminitablesaw.com/?fbclid=IwA ... 391Dp59L8g

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:48 pm

All the vids show it being used without a guard, be easy to lose a finger like that. There is a perspex guard with it as its shown on the pic with a PCB and in the photo of contents. They really should be using it in the vids.
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Keith
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Penrhos1920 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:09 pm

Ships from the states so expect to pay hefty import duty, vat & a couriers collection fee.

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:21 am

Noel wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:Incidentally, the first 5 wagons in the train have been used to carry china clay and I can't think of any reason why they would be traveling this line.


I don't think they are in china clay traffic. The WR used Highfits for longer distance clay traffic [both china and ball], but most of that travelled into the Midlands and beyond via Bristol, and the wagons were sheeted. I don't know about traffic from Wareham, but, as you say, there seems to be no reason it would travel via north London. There is another problem, in that the WR's fleet for this traffic was specifically dedicated and acquired roller bearing axleboxes, I think in the late 1960s. All wagons in that fleet were wooden bodied, as rust contamination was not acceptable [a corrugated end is OK for clay traffic as it was wood lined]. The photo, however, shows one wooden Highbar and four steel bodied wagons. Clay opens got covered in dust when they were tipped at the docks, but clay traffic Highfits in photographs seem to show far less external effect from the load.

It's just a guess, but my suggestion is lime traffic from Kent.


Hi Noel.
I have been associated with the NLG's Bodmin layout for too long. Default setting, white wagons means China clay is involved, but you are quite right, those wagons would never be used for such traffic. Something I should have realised if I had looked a little deeper. The other curious thing is that as far as I can make out, the wagons appear to be empty and this train is headed North, but lime traffic use is a definite possibility I had not considered.
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:24 am

ken kirk wrote:Dear all,
Just found this advert for a mini circular saw on Facebook.
Says it has a blade for cutting PCB.
no idea if it works. Anyone want to try??
https://theminitablesaw.com/?fbclid=IwA ... 391Dp59L8g


I'll stick to my PCB shear thanks, more of which anon.
Regards
Tony.
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Philip Hall
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:51 pm

It looks ok to me but I don't like the fact that the 'guard' is just an acrylic sheet some considerable distance above the work table and the blade. That would only be a guard against flying debris. I prefer the (admittedly crude) flip down guard over the blade on my Proxxon saw which almost completely covers the blade. The Proxxon saw blades are all the same diameter, interesting that the other blades on this machine are much bigger.

I would endorse the diamond blade for cutting PCB but after some use the cut is not as clean as it was first time out. But since you have to remove the burrs, even with a fresh blade, it's no hardship.

Philip

Alan Turner
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Alan Turner » Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:22 pm

Why bother? You can get your PCBs from China exactly to your required size and they are double sided for pennies.

regards

Alan

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:45 pm

Alan Turner wrote:Why bother? You can get your PCBs from China exactly to your required size and they are double sided for pennies.


Some confusion here I think. The reason we have been discussing using a table saw or shear to chop up PCB sheet is for sleepering. You can get sleeper strip and individual sleepers pre-cut from various suppliers, but the price has risen steeply in recent years and as plain sheet is either very cheap or free, depending on your source and how lucky you are, cutting it up yourself is a good alternative. And at the end you have a good tool for the future as well!

Philip
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shipbadger
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby shipbadger » Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:10 am

For those unfamiliar with US ideas of safety look away if you come across some of their woodworking gear. Even one of the most popular US woodworking TV programmes (New Yankee Workshop) will send shudders down your spine at times. You will not be surprised that they came up with a system for circular saws that involved an explosive charge!

Tony Comber

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:12 pm

Alan Turner wrote:Why bother? You can get your PCBs from China exactly to your required size and they are double sided for pennies.

regards

Alan


Not that I want to get political but with whats been going on in China recently I am increasing loath to support that country with any of my hard earned pennies.

Regards
Tony.
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby bobwallison » Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:13 pm

ken kirk wrote:Dear all,
Just found this advert for a mini circular saw on Facebook.
Says it has a blade for cutting PCB.
no idea if it works. Anyone want to try??
https://theminitablesaw.com/?fbclid=IwA ... 391Dp59L8g


I see that Tony has a PCB shear, but in case other people are considering buying a miniature bench saw....

I'm always wary of products which are on sale at massively reduced prices for no obvious reason - maybe in this case it's more to do with exchange rates than the manufacturer's generosity.

I have a Proxxon KS230 mini-bench saw which seems to be a very similar product with about the same power output. It comes with a proper safety guard and without the risk of massive import and collection costs, although a diamond saw blade would be an extra. I have used mine for cutting timber and sleeper strips from 1.6mm plywood sheets and for cutting hopper wagon ribs of the correct width from 60thou plasticard: I consider it one of my better investments.

Bob

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:03 pm

bobwallison wrote:I have a Proxxon KS230 mini-bench saw which seems to be a very similar product with about the same power output. It comes with a proper safety guard and without the risk of massive import and collection costs, although a diamond saw blade would be an extra. I have used mine for cutting timber and sleeper strips from 1.6mm plywood sheets and for cutting hopper wagon ribs of the correct width from 60thou plasticard: I consider it one of my better investments.

Bob


That's the one I've got, along with the diamond blade (about £26.00).

Philip

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:38 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:All the vids show it being used without a guard, be easy to lose a finger like that. There is a perspex guard with it as its shown on the pic with a PCB and in the photo of contents. They really should be using it in the vids.

I always think of this Kenny Everett sketch whenever I use an electric saw, and keep my fingers well out of the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU2BO5Obg2k

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:22 pm

After that diversion.
I have been in reflective mood recently. It all stemmed from a comment that Andrew Bluett-Duncan made some time ago and also the maps Martin posted recently have prompted me to delve into the reasons why I chose to model this particular area and period. Why do we choose to model any particular layout? The reasons are obviously many and varied. In my case the chain of events that began this journey started long ago. As with so many of us the seeds were sown in my teenage years and the realisation that the railway scene was changing rapidly. East Anglia was the first area of the country to be fully dieselised. With the closure of Stratford shed to steam in September 1962 and then March shed the following year, it seemed as though things had changed practically overnight and it was to be a couple of years before I discovered that steam still existed in other parts of the country. I must have had an interest in these new forms of traction though as I still have a first edition copy of R S Carter's British Railway Main-line diesels published in 1963 that I chose as my science prize in 1964. All the drawings are in HO scale 3.5mm to the foot.
By the mid 60's all the attention seemed to be on the rapidly dwindling number of steam locos, but I realised that the modern scene was changing quickly too. The most obvious sign of this was the publication of the new corporate image launched in early 1965, although it would be another couple of years before much in the way of visible signs of this appeared on the actual railway. But perhaps the most decisive moment came when a somewhat vociferous argument took place in the letters pages of the model railway press about the appearance of model diesel locos on peoples layouts.
One letter in particular I still remember ranting that it was bad enough having these infernal diesels on the full size railway, without having them on our model railways as well. I often said that my Father was a founding member of the awkward squad and some of that must have rubbed off on me. That was when I decided that I would be scrapping my OO model steam locos and going diesel!

My two local lines were the Churchbury loop / Enfield town line, which wasn't very entertaining as from 1960 most of the traffic consisted of EMUs, apart from diversions and the Lea or Lee (either spelling is acceptable) valley line. This was much more entertaining to observe precisely because it HAD escaped the electrification plans and the traffic was much more varied. What I would be modelling now had it been electrified is an open question I really can't answer as I'm really not keen on all the overhead spaghetti. In fact it was probably the electrification infill scheme that more than anything else attracted me to the idea of trying to model that scene or something approaching it. Work on the electrification of this line began with some track alterations in the latter part of 1967 (about the time I acquired a camera) and seriously in 1968 when ground works for the masts began. Most of this was in place by the end of the year and then the wires went up. The new service was scheduled to begin on the Monday 5th May with the start of the new May 1969 timetable, but actually began on the previous Saturday. How can I be so sure? Well, I decided to have one last ride to Stratford on the DMU only for an electric unit to arrive. This meant a change of train at Tottenham Hale to catch a DMU shuttle to Stratford, which was a different type of DMU to the regular ones.
The other noticeable change during the 1960s was the decline in the amount of freight traffic over the line together with changes in the types of traffic seen.
In January 1969 MAS colour light signals replaced the previous assortment of semaphore and searchlight signals and then many of the station buildings were demolished and replaced often with bus shelter type thingies. I think it was this last event that finally crystalized my desires to replicate some aspect of it the way it was in miniature.

So which station to choose. The two most likely candidates were Ponders End, my local station and Brimsdown, the next station North. The choice was an academic one as I did not have the available space for anything approaching a scale model of either of them.
Although Ponders End's goods yard physically survived closure in 1965, it was unused until it was selected as a base for the electrification trains. However the main deterrent was the gas works to the South of the station, which lasted until 1972 when North Sea gas effectively killed it off, thereafter only a small part of the plant then remained where the gasometers were. It was replaced by an industrial estate.
Ponders end001.jpg

In this 1968 view, just visible behind and above the rear car of the DMU is a huge traveling gantry that was used to move coke both into and out of a large storage area. As viewed here the gantry traveled from left to right. A cabin suspended from the gantry traversed its length with a large grab bucket to carry the coke and it was quite a sight to witness in action. Unfortunately, I never did get round to taking any pictures of it but it does feature partly in the background of some. It was not something that I had a great desire to build a model of though. More because I doubted my ability to do so more than anything else. As part of the making of town gas, coal was heated in a retort to drive off the volatiles, which were scrubbed to remove the coal tar before the remaining gas was stored in the gasometers. The resulting coke was then cooled, sometimes producing water gas in the process. The coke was then transported by wagon to the storage stack to either be used to heat the retort containing more coal or any excess could be sent by rail for use elsewhere. The smell of that plant is something I shall never forget.
To the right of the picture is a stream which went by the salubrious title of Brimsdown ditch. Since this also collected waste water from the gas works it sometimes exhibited an oil slick producing rainbow colours and it is my intention to incorporate a short section of this waterway into the layout even if geographically incorrect.

Brimsdown station 1961 April.jpg

Brimsdown, April 1961, on the other hand seemed to have several things going for it. There were numerous sidings around the station and although the goods yard nominally closed in 1965, it still remained in use for the local coal merchant, if much reduced for a further couple of years.
Looking at the map there was a set of sidings to the south of the station that curved away through well over 90 degrees towards a large industrial estate and to the North of the station the power station exchange sidings curved away from the main in a similar fashion. It therefore seemed a logical thing to do to wrap the main lines around the outside of these to reach the storage sidings to the rear. However I thought I would need 45 feet to do this justice with minimal compression and planing went ahead on that basis. No chance in London of course.
The upshot of all this was the genesis of Green Street named after the road that crosses the level crossing in the picture.
In the meantime in a spirit of optimism I carried out as much research as I could into the area and have been quite surprised by just how much material and information I have been able to amass and things still continue to come to light. Looking back it really was the dusk of an era, so much changed during that decade that it is going to be difficult to say with any certainty exactly what things were like on a particular date. My target date is mid 1965, but in reality the operating window is 1963 to 1967, so some things are going to be incorrect whatever I choose. However the intention is to try to avoid any glaring errors whilst occasionally invoking modellers license when I feel this is justified.
The other aspect of all this has been just how much model railway equipment suitable for this project has become available in recent years, the Exactoscale concrete sleeper base, Colin Craig's BR1 baseplates, the Heljan BTH and NBL type 1s are but some that come readily to mind.

So that is how after a move to Nottinghamshire in 2007 the outlook changed somewhat and although I didn't quite get my 45 feet to play with, and in retrospect, perhaps its not such a bad thing, a redesign resulted in what I regard as an achievable compromise in 10M x 4M and that is how we arrive where we are today.

Regards
Tony.
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:09 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:Why do we choose to model any particular layout?


Thanks for the very interesting background Tony. Not everyone wants to build a layout, although many will, and I always think that the joy of our particular hobby is that it can be approached in many different ways. It is also refreshing to see a model of an urban location that is very different from those that many people choose to use.

Terry Bendall


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