Brimsdown-The last grand project.

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Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:22 pm

There is a corollary to the previous post.
I fetched the camera from upstairs and went outside to take the pictures only to find the camera did not work.
I checked the camera.
Where were the batteries?
Upstairs in the charger!

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Tony.
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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:36 am

Tony,

I may have missed this earlier in the thread but how do you curve the ply for the baseboard edge?

Jol

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:30 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Tony,

I may have missed this earlier in the thread but how do you curve the ply for the baseboard edge?

Jol

Hi Jol.
This was covered starting here if I got the link right.viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5707&start=100#p61072
Well down page 5.
Further coverage here viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5707&start=150#p62191

Although I used bendy ply for the baseboard sides and then laminated it for strength, it is possible to use ordinary 3-4mm 3 ply at this radius as I have done for the protector overlays (which are only held in place and screwed on) as long as the strips are cut with the grain going across the bend, not lengthwise.
So when selecting 4 by 2 sheets, make sure the grain of the outer layers runs across the width, not down the length. I managed to get a couple where it runs the other way and they are only any good for straight strips.
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Tony.
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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:20 pm

Thanks Tony,

I shall get my 8 x 4 birch ply from a local company who also provide a cutting service. I can make up a "kit" of parts (strips) that way which I then only need to cut to length with my mitre saw. The tops I'll get cut to size. I did this when I made the extension boards for London Road . The boards for the new sections of the permanent layout will be curved for the ends, which I can do in straight sided segments but curved inner sides would look better.

Jol

Alan Turner
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Alan Turner » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:06 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Thanks Tony,

I shall get my 8 x 4 birch ply from a local company who also provide a cutting service. I can make up a "kit" of parts (strips) that way which I then only need to cut to length with my mitre saw. The tops I'll get cut to size. I did this when I made the extension boards for London Road . The boards for the new sections of the permanent layout will be curved for the ends, which I can do in straight sided segments but curved inner sides would look better.

Jol



Suggest you take a look at: woodshop direct : https://www.woodshopdirect.co.uk/?gclid ... xeEALw_wcB

regards

Alan

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:37 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote: but curved inner sides would look better.


The bendy play that Tony used is one way of making curved baseboards but the ply will always be in tension and want to flatten out. Not a problem with glued and screwed joints. The alternative is to laminate the plywood where you are in effect creating your own plywood by gluing several layers together in a mould. Depending on the thickness of the curved sections, three layers of standard 3mm think ply or even 1.5 mm thick do the job but you need a former and quite a lot of clamps. The ply needs to be cut so that the grain on the outside layers run across the strips or use the bendy ply.

Terry Bendall

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:18 pm

Alan Turner wrote:
Jol Wilkinson wrote:Thanks Tony,

I shall get my 8 x 4 birch ply from a local company who also provide a cutting service. I can make up a "kit" of parts (strips) that way which I then only need to cut to length with my mitre saw. The tops I'll get cut to size. I did this when I made the extension boards for London Road . The boards for the new sections of the permanent layout will be curved for the ends, which I can do in straight sided segments but curved inner sides would look better.

Jol



Suggest you take a look at: woodshop direct : https://www.woodshopdirect.co.uk/?gclid ... xeEALw_wcB

regards

Alan


Thanks Alan.

The local supplier (I can collect the cut sizes in my car so no delivery cost) charges £53.06 for 9mm birch ply 8'x4', £41.45 for 6mm and £37.36 for 4mm. The setting up charge for cutting is £4.0 and 80p per cut. I'll have to compare that with woodshopdirect when I have finalised the sizes but I don't think there will be much difference.
The only question is whether to go for 6mm or 9mm baseboard tops. The 60' x 18" and 72" x 24" extension baseboards on London Road were 6mm and were perfectly okay despite being transported, etc. The new ones will be fixed and in an insulated and heated building.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:22 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:
Jol Wilkinson wrote: but curved inner sides would look better.


The bendy play that Tony used is one way of making curved baseboards but the ply will always be in tension and want to flatten out. Not a problem with glued and screwed joints. The alternative is to laminate the plywood where you are in effect creating your own plywood by gluing several layers together in a mould. Depending on the thickness of the curved sections, three layers of standard 3mm think ply or even 1.5 mm thick do the job but you need a former and quite a lot of clamps. The ply needs to be cut so that the grain on the outside layers run across the strips or use the bendy ply.

Terry Bendall


Thanks Terry,

much as I thought. I think it will have to be straight sided "segments" form the curved track boards.

Jol

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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:05 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:
Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:Hello Tony

Seeing the track you've been laying is, I think, at the point where you go from visible track to fiddleyard, I was wondering how you intend to make the break visually?
Kind regards
Andrew


Hi Andrew. I tend to think of it the other way round i.e. from fiddleyard to visible track. Emerging from fiction into reality even though it isn't quite a true picture of reality. All will be explained.
I was thinking about this after I wrote the post.
I will answer your question with a picture, but first I am going to have to set it up and take the photo.

Incidentally, I wonder if you missed my rather lengthy post toward the bottom of page 20 explaining the genesis of this project as you haven't commented on it.

Regards
Tony.


Hello Tony
Thank you for your comprehensive answer to my question which entailed digging out that rather nice model(so far) of the bridge and ditch...more forward planning!

Had I seen your lengthy post on the genesis of the project? Well, infact I had started to read it, noted that I was for something in you feeling moved to write this now, resolved to ask what it was that I said, and then got distracted by I don't know what. So I have now come to ask you the rather overdue question. What was it that I said, that you referred to?

Incidentally I finished reading your story tonight. A good read. Thank you.

Kind regards
Andrew

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Alan Turner » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:09 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:
Alan Turner wrote:
Jol Wilkinson wrote:Thanks Tony,

I shall get my 8 x 4 birch ply from a local company who also provide a cutting service. I can make up a "kit" of parts (strips) that way which I then only need to cut to length with my mitre saw. The tops I'll get cut to size. I did this when I made the extension boards for London Road . The boards for the new sections of the permanent layout will be curved for the ends, which I can do in straight sided segments but curved inner sides would look better.

Jol



Suggest you take a look at: woodshop direct : https://www.woodshopdirect.co.uk/?gclid ... xeEALw_wcB

regards

Alan


Thanks Alan.

The local supplier (I can collect the cut sizes in my car so no delivery cost) charges £53.06 for 9mm birch ply 8'x4', £41.45 for 6mm and £37.36 for 4mm. The setting up charge for cutting is £4.0 and 80p per cut. I'll have to compare that with woodshopdirect when I have finalised the sizes but I don't think there will be much difference.
The only question is whether to go for 6mm or 9mm baseboard tops. The 60' x 18" and 72" x 24" extension baseboards on London Road were 6mm and were perfectly okay despite being transported, etc. The new ones will be fixed and in an insulated and heated building.



I don't know your local supplier but if you order from Woodshop you will find that the sizes of the pieces will be exactly what you ordered to the nearest mm.

regards

Alan

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Winander
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Winander » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:21 pm

Jol,

May be wise to check the grade of ply obtained locally. Woodshopdirect sell BB/BB grade which has 3 to 6 colour matched egg sized repairs to both faces to replace knots etc. Probably not something you might be bothered about given the use, but indicative of the value for money.

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Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:06 pm

Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:Had I seen your lengthy post on the genesis of the project? Well, in fact I had started to read it, noted that I was (responsible) for something in you feeling moved to write this now, resolved to ask what it was that I said, and then got distracted by I don't know what. So I have now come to ask you the rather overdue question. What was it that I said, that you referred to?


Hi Andrew.
It took me about three attempts of reading this to understand your meaning and a good bit of searching back through the thread to find it and some playing with the format of this post to get it to display as I wanted.
Anyway, It was this post, halfway down page 10 on December 2018, so not surprised you don't recall it.


Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:
The research for Brimsdown began over 40 years ago, shortly after half the station buildings were demolished as part of the electrification expansion scheme, but the development of Templot really was the first step of turning my dream into something tangible. The first Templot iteration assumed a space 45 feet long, totally out of the question in London where I lived until 2007. Hence the existence of Green Street.
A move to Nottinghamshire changed the picture somewhat with a 33 feet space available but not usable until suitably dealt with. A second iteration in Templot followed, with many minor tweaks since. The current file is version 12s.
When I look back at my life and the steps that have led me to where I now find myself, I do feel incredibly fortunate that life has given me the opportunity to at least attempt to build my dream. This could get deeply philosophical, so best left here.

Hello Tony
Thanks for the background on Brimsdown, birth of an idea. I’m not sure I agree with you that the philosophy is best left there. Personally I find the stories, the thought and experiences that lead us to take on such huge projects in your case, are often really interesting, born, as they often are, out of some of our earliest experiences as children. So, like you, I feel very fortunate to have had the resources and the time to acquire the skills to build a shed in the garden big enough to accommodate my layout. And then to have the time and some of the skills to build the layout itself. Then that word “fortunate” crops up and oft repeated phrases such as “one creates ones own luck” come to mind and here of course a bit of philosophy might rear it’s head only to be shot down by my desire to now get some sleep! But I wasn’t being flippant when I said I think these aspects of what draws us to this hobby make an interesting read, so if and when you feel inclined...?

Kind regards
Andrew


Some things go on the back burner and quietly simmer away before eventually producing results. Spending so much time producing plain FB track gave me much time to ponder and I thought it would be something to fill a quite slack period and give a bit of background. So there you have it. Glad you thought it worth the wait.
PS the Templot box file is now up to version 15c.
Regards
Tony.
Last edited by Tony Wilkins on Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:33 pm

Alan/Richard,

I use Ipswich Plastics who supply a variety of sheet materials to local kitchen and bathroom installers, shop fitters, etc. I supply a cutting plan with dimensions in millimetres which they cut to size perfectly. I don't know what grade the birch ply is but it was perfectly okay for my needs.

As I am a great believe in buying locally whenever possible and have been vey satisfied with their service, I'll stick with them.

Jol

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:57 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:
the development of Templot really was the first step of turning my dream into something tangible
... ...
PS the Templot file is now up to version 15c.

Hi Tony, Andrew,

I get goose-bumps to think that the program I started dabbling with 40 years ago has helped so many to realise a lifetime dream.

Mystified and infuriated a great many more of course.

It's puzzling that in all that time there is no sign of anyone coming along with a replacement program, when you think of all the other developments of the digital age since the 1980s. Templot is stuck in a time-warp, and I'm too old to see a way out of it. I always assumed that by now I wouldn't need to.

But I'm inspired to keep going when I see you and others posting photos of track being built on Templot templates. Sometimes amazing trackwork formations that I would never have dreamed of when I started. So thanks for that, and the opportunity to have played a tiny part in your grand projects.

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:03 pm

It's puzzling that in all that time there is no sign of anyone coming along with a replacement program,

'Cos for someone to better Templot they would have had to start over 40 years ago. :)
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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:17 am

Re birch ply.

I have looked at some pieces left over from my previous baseboard build and they fit the BB/BB definition as far as I can see. The baseboards were painted underneath to prevent moisture affecting them so I can't look at those. I expect any reputable local supplier will use only the better grades of plywood, unlike the sort of stuff available from the DIY warehouses.

Based on the first cutting plan I have drawn up, the quoted costs from Ipswich Plastics and the Wood Direct website, the cost for the 6mm ply I need to start of is £55.85 from + my costs for collection IP and £76.41 + delivery from WD. So buying locally will pay off for me.

Having said that, Wood Direct have suitable hardwood for some new door thresholds I need so I'll take a further look at those.

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Noel » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:14 am

Martin Wynne wrote:It's puzzling that in all that time there is no sign of anyone coming along with a replacement program


Leaving aside commercial motivations which aren't relevant here, why would anyone want do so, Martin?

We are essentially in the same situation as, for example, hobby kit designers; whatever they may do later, they almost always start by producing kits for something they want which is not otherwise available [and a lot stop there as well]. You have a unique product which seems to do what its users want, and does it well. The software may be complex and involve a significant learning process, but then any replacement would, I think, have the same issues, because they are inherent in the subject. Replacing your software would involve the writer in a lot of work [probably not 40 years worth, as they would not be starting from zero as you did, but a lot, nevertheless]; why bother when yours does what its users want it to? I fear that you are the victim [if that is the right word] of your own success :D .
Regards
Noel

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:32 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:
It's puzzling that in all that time there is no sign of anyone coming along with a replacement program,

'Cos for someone to better Templot they would have had to start over 40 years ago. :)

It would take someone with both of prototype track knowledge and programming ability and that combination must be thin on the ground. That's before we think about having the motivation.

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Tony.
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:53 am

Martin Wynne wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:
the development of Templot really was the first step of turning my dream into something tangible
... ...
PS the Templot box file is now up to version 15c.

Hi Tony, Andrew,

I get goose-bumps to think that the program I started dabbling with 40 years ago has helped so many to realise a lifetime dream.

But I'm inspired to keep going when I see you and others posting photos of track being built on Templot templates. Sometimes amazing trackwork formations that I would never have dreamed of when I started. So thanks for that, and the opportunity to have played a tiny part in your grand projects.

cheers,

Martin.


Hi Martin.
I am glad the appreciation is mutual and in my case I don't regard the part you played in it as tiny either. The ability to use background maps to plan the layout with unrivaled accuracy (not just for the track, but the scenery as well) is, as far as I am aware, unique to Templot and more recent additions such an track bed edges and the ability to print out the FB track showing the foot just when I was going to need it, all add to its capabilities.
So, yes you should rightly be proud of what you have achieved.
Yours in appreciation.
Tony.

Time I got back to some track laying.
Last edited by Tony Wilkins on Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby bécasse » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:33 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:The ability to use background maps to plan the layout with unrivaled accuracy (not just for the track, but the scenery as well) is, as far as I am aware, unique to Templot and more recent additions such an track bed edges and the ability to print out the FB track showing the foot all add to its capabilities.


I have recently used Inkscape's abilities to copy a Southern Railway 40 ft to the inch plan of Bembridge into digital format. Just for interest, I then tried overlaying it on to an OS 25" map obtained via the Old Maps website and was somewhat surprised, almost alarmed, to find that the OS map was not a good "fit", notably considerably sharpening the curve through the platform (and consequently slightly altering the orientation of the various buildings).

I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the SR forty-foot plan, not least because I had quite a number of measured dimensions in addition and they all fit, but if I had been relying on the OS map I would have got it seriously wrong. I have long used 25" OS maps and was well aware that they have their shortcomings (crossovers and remote signal posts missed off being perhaps the most common ones, although buildings are often somewhat approximate in their representation), but this was the first time that I had experienced such a misrepresentation of a basic layout - clearly something went wrong with their base surveys and was never corrected.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:23 pm

bécasse wrote:an OS 25" map obtained via the Old Maps website and was somewhat surprised, almost alarmed, to find that the OS map was not a good "fit", notably considerably sharpening the curve through the platform (and consequently slightly altering the orientation of the various buildings

Hi David,

This is not likely due to any basic error in the OS mapping, but to the different map projections used. The surface of the Earth is not flat, so it can't be represented on a flat sheet of paper over large areas.

Unlike the SR 40ft plan, where I doubt the surveyors paid much regard to the curvature of the Earth when drawing the map.

The well known OS Leisure maps use the original 1936 OS grid projection. The grid lines are straight and parallel, and the grid squares are exactly square across the whole of GB. But the data has had to be distorted to achieve this. Before 1936 the original County Series 25" OS maps used their own separate projection datum for each county, with the result that the sheets don't align well at the county boundaries.

If you look at the same OS map on the NLS web site in two formats, the original scanned sheet and the georeferenced slippy version, you will see that in the latter the grid lines have become angled and curved and not parallel, and the grid squares are no longer dead square. That's because the OS map image has been resampled to match the projection used for slippy web maps such as Google maps and aerial images. This effect is more noticeable as you move to the North and West of GB.

One upshot of this is that you can find places where railway tracks and platforms which are shown dead straight on one version of the map can become gently curved on the other, and vice versa. And structures appear rotated at an angle.

p.s. the maps on the NLS web site have been scanned at better quality than the Old-Maps site and they are free to use at any zoom level. They don't have as wide a range of map dates as Old-Maps (but catching up fast).

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Will L » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:00 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:...It's puzzling that in all that time there is no sign of anyone coming along with a replacement program, when you think of all the other developments of the digital age since the 1980s. Templot is stuck in a time-warp, and I'm too old to see a way out of it...

Not to me it isn't. I spent a considerable part of my professional career from 1969 developing computer systems for a bank you will have herd of. When I started the very first banking systems were being implemented, and I saw a series of attempts to improve and update them over the years. It became apparent that, as a useful rule of thumb, it becomes impossible to scrap and completely replace your existing system more than twice. What this really meant was that when you had a mature system in place, the cost of replacing it wholesale could never be covered by any benefits you were likely to achieve by replacing something which already mostly meets you needs. I'm not sure how many predecessor systems there are to the current version of Templot but I think it is well into that window.

As to the future, the bank did continue to develop their systems but by evolutionary change which built on what they already had and not by revolutionary change that replaced it. As a result while online or app driven banking may appear to be different these days,some very old code may well still be running under the covers to support the latest internet facilities.

Martin has been evolving Templot too and I would suggest that while somebody someday might want to add stuff or work on the user interfaces, the basic processing engines are likely to last as long as there are processors able to run them. What we all want for Martin is a successor who can understand what's there and take on the support role when he has had enough.

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:10 pm

Hi David.
Thanks for putting me straight about that. I must admit that I have not tried many drawing packages, Paint doing most things I want to outside Templot and yes, I know there is better drawing software available.

Re the map discrepancies, Martin has explained this problem before mainly I think on the Templot forum.
I must just have been luck. I have a 1947 LNER 40 ft plan of Brimsdown and six 1250 : 1 (50") 1965 OS maps of the wider area and they seem to tally well. Although I too would rather trust the 40 ft plan over an OS one, which is not to say it is without errors either, they don't cover much other than railway property, so the OS maps are useful on that score.
Regards
Tony.
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:48 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote: I expect any reputable local supplier will use only the better grades of plywood, unlike the sort of stuff available from the DIY warehouses.


This might depend on the individual supply but yes "proper" timber yards, as distinct from DIY suppliers, whether they are the big chains or small local shops are more likely to supply birch ply although they will have other types. Plywood made using other timbers, sometimes called far eastern plywood since the timber used comes for SE Asia, may not be as good. There have been times when I have been offered a cheaper alternative but have taken birch.

For those who are not familiar, going to a traditional timber yard may be a bit intimidating, since you may not know all the technical terms but if you choose a quiet time of day most staff will try to be helpful. If you wants lots of pieces cut to size then have a list prepared with the exact dimensions in millimetres but you will of course have to pay for the cutting. Most yards will do one cut for free but after that you need to pay. It will of course be cheaper to do the cutting yourself at home but you need the skills and equipment. My usual practice is to get a sheet cut once to fit in the car or on a roof rack and do the rest at home. Most firms will deliver but again a charge will probably be made.

The series on building baseboards that I wrote and which appeared in issues 170 - 177 of Scalefour News (and which can be found in the archive on the Society web site) has advice which some may find useful, including cutting and shaping the ply.

Terry Bendall

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby shipbadger » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:21 pm

Just to add to Terry's comments about timber suppliers. At least one company with a number of outlets will not cut to size if you turn up after mid-day and want it done then. Phone first to discuss what you want and any special arrangements. I'd also second Terry's comment, I'm no expert but have found staff invariably helpful and if you explain what you want your timber/plywood for can offer advice or suggest which product may be best. If buying birch ply the key phrase is 'birch throughout' if you want the top quality otherwise you may end up with birch faced ply. As I did on one occasion, turned out the chap dealing with me was a fellow model railway enthusiast.

Tony Comber


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