Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
Dave Holt
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Dave Holt » Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:35 am

That's a testament to good track laying, then.
Dave.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:03 pm

Somewhere in the past, I mentioned that I had acquired some Peco tank wagon kits. The instructions describe the kit as representing a standard 10ft wheelbase tank wagon. They may be representative, but they aren't an accurate model of anything I can find. Be that as it may, I thought I would have a go at doing something with them and use some parts from my collection. I had an ancient Peco tank wagon kit that was finished in silver and wanted to use these parts using one of the more recent underframes. Just how ancient may be judged from these pictures of the box.
DSCF2376.jpg

DSCF2377.jpg

For those not old enough to remember, the Price inc. P.T. refers to Purchase Tax, which was superseded by VAT then at 10%.
The stick on price label fell off years ago, but would probably have been around the two Shilling mark (10P).
So what follows are pictures of some not very accurate wagons, but I have tried to produce a better grade of Pigs ear where the Peco tanks are concerned and in my defense I invoke rule 1.
DSCF2380.jpg

DSCF2379.jpg

The exercise has been beneficial in numerous ways. I have learned a lot about class A and B tanks and the differences between them. B tanks have bottom discharge and a control wheel on the top, but A tanks had top siphon discharge due to early problems with poorly sealing outlet valves.
The Peco tanks now have class A fittings moulded on whereas the old tank had separate parts to add for these and the filler cap could be fitted in any position. Curiously the improved kits filler caps have a D shape underneath which means the caps can only go one way round and if opened hits the siphon, so is the wrong way round. I have added walkways and control wheels from spare Airfix tank wagon kits to the class B tanks and a discharge pipe as appropriate. Two thicknesses of Brass wire are supplied coiled. After trying to straighten them, I gave up and decided to use piano wire. It comes straight and is a better colour. The other thing is the instructions tell you is to use the thick wire for the horizontal tie rod and the thinner wire for the diagonals, the reverse is true. The other problem I had is that the old wagon kits used brass bearing cups to line the axleboxes, but these have now been replaced with some plastic inserts that need to be drilled after insertion to allow 26mm axles to fit.
The transfers are a mixture of those supplied by Peco, Railtec, and for the Regent wagon, Fox.

Finally for now, this pair.
DSCF2378.jpg

The FINA tank is by Bachmann, a 45T TTA tank masquerading as a 35T monoblock design. The quality of the lettering is such that am prepared to live with the compromise.
This Regent tank is from an old Trix wagon mounted on a much hacked about Ratio underframe and was converted purely for nostalgic reasons.
Regards
Tony.
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Noel
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Noel » Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:59 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:Two thicknesses of Brass wire are supplied coiled. After trying to straighten them, I gave up and decided to use piano wire. It comes straight and is a better colour.

Contemporary colour photos of tanks seem rather rare, so I am reliant on B & W photos in Tourret "Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Britain", Larkin "Non-Pool Freight Stock 1948-1968" and Kent "The 4mm Wagon" vol 2, but it is noticeable in photos of clean tanks that some, but not all, Esso class B tanks show a white band over the two points where the horizontal brace cuts the white ovals. Shell-BP letter placings mostly avoid the issue, but there are examples where the bracing crosses the lettering which show white bands on the bracing at the relevant areas. I have not seen any photos of Regent tanks so treated. To me, this suggests that the bracing was normally painted body colour, sometimes with the colour varied where it crossed letters, etc. in the same way as the straps over the barrel were. The bracing was rod, flattened for bolting to the chassis and otherwise threaded at the ends. Presumably they were mild steel, which is prone to rusting, so leaving it unpainted is somewhat at variance with the care oil companies at that time exhibited over the initial appearance of their stock before spillages.
Regards
Noel

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:44 pm

Noel wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:Two thicknesses of Brass wire are supplied coiled. After trying to straighten them, I gave up and decided to use piano wire. It comes straight and is a better colour.

Contemporary colour photos of tanks seem rather rare, so I am reliant on B & W photos in Tourret "Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Britain", Larkin "Non-Pool Freight Stock 1948-1968" and Kent "The 4mm Wagon" vol 2, but it is noticeable in photos of clean tanks that some, but not all, Esso class B tanks show a white band over the two points where the horizontal brace cuts the white ovals. Shell-BP letter placings mostly avoid the issue, but there are examples where the bracing crosses the lettering which show white bands on the bracing at the relevant areas. I have not seen any photos of Regent tanks so treated. To me, this suggests that the bracing was normally painted body colour, sometimes with the colour varied where it crossed letters, etc. in the same way as the straps over the barrel were. The bracing was rod, flattened for bolting to the chassis and otherwise threaded at the ends. Presumably they were mild steel, which is prone to rusting, so leaving it unpainted is somewhat at variance with the care oil companies at that time exhibited over the initial appearance of their stock before spillages.

Hi Noel.
Thanks for pointing that out, it was a detail that to be honest, I hadn't spotted. I did consider painting the bracing rods, but that really needs to be done before assembly to avoid getting paint where it is not wanted on the tank, hence my choice of piano wire, which has a semi black finish.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Mon May 08, 2023 4:36 pm

It has been a while since I last posted as there has been quite a lot happening elsewhere recently and this situation will remain for a while yet.
So bring things up to date here are two more videos, which are likely to be the last for the time being.

The expresses that ran between Liverpool Street and Cambridge were generally seven coach sets and ran during the peak periods. This Hornby loco was purchased second hand already fitted with P4 wheels as a non runner. The fault turned out to be the lack of the DCC header, so a relatively easy win and runs rather better than expected despite the almost rigid wheelbase.
The Liverpool Street to King's Lynn expresses by comparison were 9 coach sets as shown previously in videos and had type 3 haulage.
The second video is another freight train. This is an attempt to copy a particular prototype photo, but the lack of suitable stock means that it isn't quite there as yet. Something that will be rectified in due course.

When I do get back to the layout, there are a number of issues that have come to light that need sorting out.
Regards
Tony.
Last edited by Tony Wilkins on Tue May 09, 2023 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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ClikC
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby ClikC » Mon May 08, 2023 5:29 pm

Hi Tony,

I love the smoothness of the glide, and testament to some well laid trackwork.

Regards

Matt
Matt Rogers

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:42 pm

For convenience of viewing, I have collected the better videos previously published here together and edited them into a sensible sequence rather than have them scattered about the thread. So there is no new material here and some of the joins are a bit naff, but if you fancy nearly 18 minutes of watching the trains go by then be my guest.

Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Richard Oldfield
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Richard Oldfield » Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:03 pm

Hi Tony,

Thank you for putting this video collection together.

It is always nice to see decent length trains running smoothly. :thumb

Cheers,

Richard

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ChrisMitchell
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby ChrisMitchell » Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:52 pm

Excellent viewing.⭐️⭐️

Did I count 21 bogie bolsters? I gave up trying to count the number of mineral wagons :D

Chris

Dave Holt
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:52 pm

Very enjoyable viewing, Tony. Thanks.
There's some seriously long trains on show. I just hope it won't involve hand loading all those 16 ton minerals with real coal!
Dave.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:11 pm

ChrisMitchell wrote:Excellent viewing.⭐️⭐️

Did I count 21 bogie bolsters? I gave up trying to count the number of mineral wagons :D

Chris

Hi Chris.
Thanks.
Yes that train was 21 bogie bolsters at the time I shot that video. The train has since grown to 30 bogies bolsters and been given a more suitable loco in the shape of a class 37. The empty mineral was (and still is) 62 wagons plus brake, which was typical of the workings of that time. The longest I counted was 76 and I do (just) have space to replicate that.
The loaded coal train is 40 plus brake, the loads are temporarily just Airfix mouldings painted gloss black. The second empty mineral was 34 plus brake and will eventually be about 45 plus brake as I acquire / build more minerals.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:19 pm

Dave Holt wrote:Very enjoyable viewing, Tony. Thanks.
There's some seriously long trains on show. I just hope it won't involve hand loading all those 16 ton minerals with real coal!
Dave.

Hi Dave.
Thanks.
The short answer is no.
Those trains will just run as they are, but the plan is to have two further coal trains of 30 wagons, one full and one empty that will service the off scene power station and will just be swapped off scene and there will be others used by factories in the industrial estate that will likewise be swapped off scene. What I have not resolved is the coal merchant's traffic for the goods yard.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

bécasse
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby bécasse » Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:21 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:Those trains will just run as they are, but the plan is to have two further coal trains of 30 wagons, one full and one empty that will service the off scene power station and will just be swapped off scene and there will be others used by factories in the industrial estate that will likewise be swapped off scene. What I have not resolved is the coal merchant's traffic for the goods yard.


Have one wagon permanently located in the yard with part load and open door so that it appears to be in the process of being unloaded. Then swap newly arrived full wagons and ready-to-depart empty wagons "over night".

Incidentally I can provide (very) detailed drawings (and photos) of an old-fashioned coal merchant's weighing/bagging scales. Dave Sutton of S&D Models does a kit based on them in 7mm but no-one in 4mm, they are probably doable (except perhaps for the "scoop") using 3D printing. Ask if you are interested.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Jun 20, 2023 3:14 pm

bécasse wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:Those trains will just run as they are, but the plan is to have two further coal trains of 30 wagons, one full and one empty that will service the off scene power station and will just be swapped off scene and there will be others used by factories in the industrial estate that will likewise be swapped off scene. What I have not resolved is the coal merchant's traffic for the goods yard.


Have one wagon permanently located in the yard with part load and open door so that it appears to be in the process of being unloaded. Then swap newly arrived full wagons and ready-to-depart empty wagons "over night".

Incidentally I can provide (very) detailed drawings (and photos) of an old-fashioned coal merchant's weighing/bagging scales. Dave Sutton of S&D Models does a kit based on them in 7mm but no-one in 4mm, they are probably doable (except perhaps for the "scoop") using 3D printing. Ask if you are interested.

Thanks for the offer David. I will bear that in mind.
Regards
Tony.
Last edited by Tony Wilkins on Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Jun 20, 2023 7:23 pm

bécasse wrote: they are probably doable (except perhaps for the "scoop") using 3D printing.


Although I think they would be rather frigile. Alternatively scratch build from brass, which is what I did for Elcot Road.

coal scales.jpg


The picture above shows the component parts with an assembled version and one painted but before weathering. All from brass.mainly 1 mm angle and 1mm square with some wheels turned on the lathe but they could be made from brass rod. Not shown is the weight which was also made from brass. Often these were 56 lb weights as a cast lump with a handle across the top. The actual coal nopper of the scales was from 5 thou brass sheet which is about scale thickness.

coal bin and scales.jpg


A picture of the prototype, one of several used as inspirastion.

Elcot Road coal bins.jpg


And finally a picture of part of the coal yard on Elcot Road showing a set of scales and before the weathering on the wagons was finished.

Terry Bendall
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Brian T
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Brian T » Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:21 pm

Hello Tony,

I've been reading thru' your thread with great interest - I'm currently constructing a B8 Turnout as a test piece at the moment (I really can't get on with trying to thread plastic chairs onto rail). A few questions if I may please:

1. What solder and flux do you use please, and what iron temperature?
2. What clean up method do you use after soldering - I'm particularly concerned with not adversely affecting the ply sleepers.
3. Do you have any particular tips for minimising scorching of the sleepers, other than being as quick as possible?
4. Do you pre-tin the rivet heads first?

Many thanks
Kind Regards
Brian

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Oct 30, 2023 11:12 pm

My methods covered here, http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html
The Protofour Manual and the Scalefour digest both have detailed sections on this also that can be downloaded from this site.
1. I use solder paste, most recently from LRM.
2. I use a toothbrush and scouring powder and give it a good scrub on the draining board then rinse off under the hot tap so it dries quickly. Never given any trouble with ply sleepers.
3. The odd scorch is not a problem, they get stained or painted afterwards anyway, real ones got scorched on occasion by embers dropping from passing ashpans.
4. No, not required with solder paste as long as they are cleaned, I clean both rivet heads and rail foot with a fibreglass brush.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:05 pm

Hi Brian.
In case you've not seen it, my approach to building track was posted here.viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5727#p58819
The 7th picture down shows my soldering equipment. I use a temperature controlled iron set at 380 deg C.
The solder is thin multicore Tin / Lead as was used for electronic PCB assembly and resin flux (Carrs orange label), which is non corrosive and can be left or physically scraped off as it solidifies after soldering.
The important thing as Keith has already commented is to make sure the rail bottom and rivet head are thoroughly cleaned before soldering using either a fibreglass brush or an abrasive block (I prefer those made by Klingspor).
Holding the bit against the junction of the rivet head and the foot of the rail and avoiding touching the timber minimizes scorching, but the bit does tend to slip off occasionally. Don't be tempted to be too quick, the heat needs to be applied long enough for the solder (applied to the opposite side of the joint to the bit) to melt and flow into the joint as the flux does its job.
Pre-tinning the rivet heads is not recommended as the thickness of the solder on adjacent rivets can prevent the rail being held firmly down against the rivet you are trying to solder.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Brian T
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Brian T » Wed Nov 01, 2023 3:45 pm

Many thanks Keith & Tony for your replies; I have some 0.4mm Multicore 60/40 Solder that I've just tried with good results (I also found some 0.7mm as well) - I don't have any Orange Label but have discovered several very small jars of Rosin Flux (possibly also Multicore) so I'll give that a try to see how it performs.
Kind Regards,
Brian

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:04 pm

It has been some while since I last posted an activity update here. Sadly there has not been a great deal to post due health problems affecting both my wife and myself and these are likely to be ongoing for some while yet. However, there has been progress as those of you that follow the EMAG posts may have gleaned.
The conversion of 12 Airfix 16ton mineral wagon kits from the "standard" diagram 1/108 to diagram 1/102 mainly involves changes to the sides as the 102 variant lacks the drop flaps above the side doors but does have bottom doors and independent brakes as a result. So I have been working my way through the alterations to the sides to begin with. Here are two pictures showing the before and after.
A scrap 108 side. This came from a second hand wagon incorrectly assembled, but didn't want to come apart. The end door was upside down as was shown in some versions of the instruction sheets.
DSCF2399.jpg

A modified 102 side.
DSCF2400.jpg

Basically everything above the main door was filed flat and the required detail built up.
The full batch of 24 sides with a few side door variations top right.
DSCF2403.jpg

The next job will be cutting the floors to fit from 1mm plastic sheet and then a start can be made on assembling the bodies.
Regards
Tony.
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