Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
Tony Wilkins
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:57 pm

Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed May 01, 2019 12:05 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:
Just one question. I know you've probably have already said but what do you stick your underlay and track down with please.

All Best

Dave

Clearly, someone hasn't been paying attention.
The cork is stuck to the baseboard with a 'cheap' PVA wood glue. Mine was actually a mix of two, one thick and one thin from different sources giving the desired consistency. I could have just thinned down the thick PVA glue (Screwfix no nonsense) with water to achieve the same result.
The track is stuck down using Brianclegg Blue label washable PVA glue. (Boyes) This allows me to lift the track by soaking with water for several hours should the need arise and it has done so on several occasions already. Similar products are available from craft shops.
Regards
Tony.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed May 01, 2019 2:48 pm

ME! Not paying attention? Sorry what are we talking about? LOL.

Thanks Tony, will give it ago. I'm getting tantalizing close to laying my first bit of track.

All Best

Dave

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed May 01, 2019 4:12 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:ME! Not paying attention? Sorry what are we talking about? LOL.

Thanks Tony, will give it ago. I'm getting tantalizing close to laying my first bit of track.

All Best

Dave

You'll only learn by trying.
Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu May 02, 2019 4:36 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote: Thankfully for me {I hope anyway} my layout is basically single line {ish}. I've also decided not to have board joint breaks in the rail now and build continuously across all joints. I don't plan on moving my layout {unless the wife kicks me out} so will have joints in the underlay etc but not the rail. The only place I have to do this is on the board that bridges across the door which has to me removable.

All Best

Dave

To my mind, this is a bit of a risky strategy, but its your layout. It may save on connectors and associated wiring, (and there will be quite a lot on my layout) but at what cost. I know of several layouts where this approach has been taken and the layout has subsequently been removed using power saws, with accompanying damage.
As one gets older, accessibility becomes more of a priority, certainly so in my case. The need to be able to remove a baseboard for whatever reason was the overriding factor for me.
Regards
Tony.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu May 02, 2019 5:00 pm

Hi Tony. It wasn't what I was planning to do when I started construction of the baseboards. But I ended up making some of the boards too big {for one person to handle by themselves}, and they ended up becoming quite heavy, so I could not remove a board by myself without causing a great mischief to myself of the board and what ever was on it. Also as the construction of the boards would make Mr Chippendale have nightmares, and once they were all bolted up and the joints leveled I didn't want to risk moving them in case they didn't go back the way they should.

I will preserve all the joints of the boards by not covering them over with the track underlay, sleepers and scenic's etc but just the rail. So if they layout did have to be removed only the rails would have to be cut {well that's the theory anyway}.

Dave

Terry Bendall
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon May 06, 2019 7:21 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:I will preserve all the joints of the boards by not covering them over with the track underlay, sleepers and scenic's etc


Won't that make for some gaps in these items. and thereby spoil the appearance? :(

We may not plan to move layouts but life has a way of making such things happen. :( There have been many examples of layouts that have had to be moved, if only on the death of the builder, and where fine layouts end up being virtually destroyed in the process. It might now be too late for this layout but it is always wise to plan baseboards that can be easily moved, even if that does mean a few more rail joints. Just a thought.

Terry Bendall

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed May 08, 2019 9:59 am

Hi Terry. As regards having unsightly gaps at the baseboard joints, I'll do my best to try and blend them in so they don't stand out, but it's no different if it was a layout that could be taken apart for exhibitions etc.

When I die building this layout it will be like a Viking style funeral where I will be laid in the centre and the wife and family will torch the place. They seem very keen on this and they want to have at least one try run beforehand. LOL.

All Best

Dave

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:16 pm

Another month passes. There has not been much progress with the baseboards as I have been concentrating on building the next sections of track, much of it pointwork, which I had been reluctant to make until I had resolved the baseboard issues described in my previous post. I had 12 items of pointwork left to complete, 7 Bullhead including a double slip and 5 Flat bottom including a single slip. I have been tackling the remaining Bullhead pointwork first.

Edited to include pictures.

The end curved baseboards have been temporarily stacked out of the way as I needed to be able to get at the wood stored in the corner for another job.
DSCF0833.jpg

This formation needed finishing off. It had been missing some brass chairs.
The unbuilt turnout on this board is one of the four Flat bottom turnouts.
DSCF0834.jpg

This is also part of the scenic section of the layout, so I decided to use some pre-stained timbering I had. Something I have resisted before as I was not sure how well the rivet marks would show for punching. I have had a slightly higher reject rate than normal as a result of rivets being out of position.
DSCF0837.jpg

This is the section of track I am intermittently working on.
DSCF0845.jpg

DSCF0846.jpg

The switch end of the E-16 turnout still to complete.
DSCF0847.jpg

Then I still have these two boards to do before I can even consider resuming track laying, so that is some way off.
DSCF0851.jpg

This board includes another E-16 turnout.
DSCF0850.jpg

The complexity of these four sections combined with several baseboard joints explains my reticence to commit precious resources until I was reasonably confident of a successful outcome.
The paint pots lurking in the above picture also tell their own story!
Regards
Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:32 pm

Following on from my previous post, these sections of track have now been done, so here are some more pictures.
The E-16 turnout was the first thing to be finished.
DSCF0852.jpg

Here is a closeup of the switch unit complete with 20 slide chairs. Nice, but a lot of work.
DSCF0853.jpg

The next board to be tackled with the other E-16 Turnout in the mix. The original track was straight and used C-8's. This is the penalty for having to curve the formation due to space restrictions.
DSCF0854.jpg

DSCF0855.jpg

Last of all the forth section with the plain track needed.
DSCF0856.jpg

This takes me round the North end curve almost to the straight section as far as track building is concerned.
So the next job will be back to track laying. However there are other things looming on the horizon, one of which is a new fitted kitchen that is due to land for installation early next month. This will put a crimp in things for sure, so progress is likely to be limited for a while.
Regards
Tony.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:24 pm

All very impressive, Tony. As a matter of interest, how many tie bars/stretchers does a set of E switches have and how many functional ones do you intend to fit?
Dave.

Julian Roberts
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:55 am

:thumb Inspirational work and thread Tony. I'm trying to work out if my eye is deceiving me - are some of the E switches curved on both roads?

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:50 am

Dave Holt wrote: As a matter of interest, how many tie bars/stretchers does a set of E switches have and how many functional ones do you intend to fit?
Dave.

Hi Dave.
An prototype E switch has 3 stretcher bars, I am hoping to get away with 2 spaced slightly further apart.
For the record A, B & C switches have 2 stretcher bars.
D & E have 3 and F switches have 4.
Regards
Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:55 am

Julian Roberts wrote: I'm trying to work out if my eye is deceiving me - are some of the E switches curved on both roads?

Hi Julian. I think the answer is yes as they are all curved. That is why I had to use E switches as these were the shortest I could get away with for the minimum curvature I wanted.
Regards
Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:14 am

For those wondering what progress has been made since my last post, here is an update.
After what seems an age being diverted by other things such as a new kitchen and jobs outside during the "good" weather, I have now began to make some further progress with the layout although not in the direction one might expect.
Those who saw me doing the track building workshops at Scaleforum will have seen the baseboard I had with me. The Monday beforehand, I decided I ought to add some point motors and electrics to it. I had been considering the electrical aspect of the layout for some time now and felt that the time had come to make some decisions and commit myself. Thus it had three Cobalt point motors (of the eight it required) and a similar number of tracks wired. I came to the conclusion working on the Nottingham Area Group's layout, that the point motors should be installed before any track wiring that goes anywhere near them, otherwise it is bound to get in the way sooner or later. The following two weeks saw further progress with the remainder of the point motors fitted and the track wired. That is 1 out of n baseboards. I have since started on the second baseboard but at the current rate of progress of about a baseboard a fortnight, it is going to take a while. Then there is the control wiring and jumper cables to make and fit, so lots more to do.
Regards
Tony.

bobwallison
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby bobwallison » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:49 am

Hi Tony.

I would be interested to hear how you get on with the Cobalt motors.

I bought a pack of 12 not long after they were introduced and three have been taken out of service after very moderate use because the gears are slipping. This is a known problem, but still a frustrating one. What is not widely reported is that they are much noisier than tortoise motors, which are almost inaudible in comparison; this in spite of being fixed to my mdf trackbed with adhesive foam pads - not a screw in sight!

I suppose what I'm really asking is whether recent production runs are better, because I do like the compact size and the non-solder terminals.

Regards,
Bob

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steve howe
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby steve howe » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:30 pm

We used Cobalt motors on our 00 club layout which represents a medium sized urban terminus. They were set up for push-button route selection (one of our members is a ex-Railtrack signal engineer) so anything up to six or seven motors fire simultaneously! The motors were bought relatively recently, within the last 2 years at least, and do not seem excessively noisy. We are also using them on our P4 Watermouth project where their soft action is much better on scale tiebars.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:58 pm

Hi Bob.
The slipping gear problem is something I am aware of. The ones I have are the revamped Classic model with the extra connection and dual voltage switch and I have been advised to use the higher setting with my setup. It is early days yet as I have only been operating them with a 12 volt supply for testing and the 8 now installed seem to work so far. As I have 82 to install eventually I hope they prove reliable. They do seem a shade noisier than the Tortoise motors, but compared to the Fulgurex motors I used on Green Street, they are much quieter. Tortoise point motors have their Achilles heel too as the internal contacts can fail as has happened to one of ours on the NAG test track with result that a turnout crossing went dead when switched one way. Their size is also a disadvantage in my situation.
Unlike you I am not so enamored with the Cobalt connector system. It is fiddly to wire up with the ribbon cable I use and will be worse should I need to change one when installed under a baseboard. I much prefer a plug in system such as the Tortoise has. The Fulgurex point motors I installed on Green Street were all modified before fitting with a small piece of Vero board and a 10 way connector. Consideration has been given to doing something similar with my Cobalts, but for the moment at least, concerns about Warranty issues preclude this.
Regards
Tony.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:32 am

I have continued to use Tortoise motors and have generally found them reliable. I have had the occasional failure of the switching contacts but these can be repaired as was described in Scalefour News a while back. What I now do is to fit micro switches on the outside of the cover with the switch operated by the movement of the operating lever of the motor and no longer use the internal switch contacts. These were/are(?) available from Clockwork Ideas but it is not difficult to devise your own system.

They can be seen on Elcot Road at Uckfield this weekend by anyone who wants to ask.

Terry Bendall

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Mark Tatlow » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:19 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:Hi Bob.
Unlike you I am not so enamored with the Cobalt connector system. It is fiddly to wire up .


I quite like the cobalts and find them reliable. Like Tony, they are so much quieter (and more reliable) than Fulgerexs, I am happy! I am using the IP versions though, so they are a lot younger.

I have devised a little mount for my cobalts that is permanently screwed in place onto the underside of the board. This is designed to enable me to swap out a point motor with the boards in situ if I have a failure. Whilst you do have to get 8BA bolts in upside down, this can be done and is better than screwing into the baseboard in a panic!

I use the base as a form of tag strip too, so the electrical feeds all get soldered to this and then there is simply a fly lead for the operational power/crossing polarity that connections coming from this to the contacts on the cobalt. This is great because if you wire them back to front (as I do on most!), it is a few seconds to reverse it.

Pictures here:

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2017/04/ ... -one-back/
Mark Tatlow

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barrowroad
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby barrowroad » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:36 am

I have around 80 Cobalt Digital IP units on Barrow Road. I searched around for some time to find suitable connectors so I could detach the wiring easily from the Cobalt in case of a failure. All my Cobalts are attached to the underside of the baseboard using M3 screws which fit into rivet nuts.

IMG_20171212_164714292 (960x1280).jpg

In this photo the wiring to the tag strips is incomplete.

Each loom consists of 9 long [20mm] pins that are at 2.54mm pitch. I have soldered single core 1/0.6 wire to each pin - colour coded - and soldered the other ends to a tag strip.I will post the source of the pins if anyone is interested.
To insert/remove the strip of pins into/from the terminals I use a wooden or metal bar [ usually a small file] to hold down the orange terminal 'clamps?'

Further details are on

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... rogress-3/

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:41 pm

Thanks for the replies, it is useful to see what others have done. I was originally after the Cobalt IP version, but at the time of ordering, these were not yet available, so settled for the classics. I do recognise the connectors strips and have similar in my collection of electronic bits so will experiment. 2.54mm is 0.1inches (an electronics standard), which is what I expected the pitch of the connectors fitted to the Cobalts to be, but they are slightly less than this so wasn't sure just how well they would fit. Hence the need for the long pins. I also had doubts about getting 9 pins into all the holes together by holding down all those orange clamps simultaneously. My ribbon cable is 10 way multi strand 7/0.2mm using what appears to be the same tag strips.
I also have rather less free space under my baseboards due to all the bracing required with saggy Sundeala. Here are a couple of pictures of the underside of the first baseboard, which it has to be said was something of an experiment.

DSCF0860.jpg

DSCF0861.jpg

Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:22 am

barrowroad wrote:I will post the source of the pins if anyone is interested.



Hi Robin.
It would be useful to know. I have tried the ones I have got, which match the pitch of the connector, but they are not long enough. Curses.
Regards
Tony.

Alan Turner
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Alan Turner » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:35 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:
barrowroad wrote:I will post the source of the pins if anyone is interested.



Hi Robin.
It would be useful to know. I have tried the ones I have got, which match the pitch of the connector, but they are not long enough. Curses.
Regards
Tony.


RS Components No. 251-8351

regards

Alan

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:25 pm

Alan Turner wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:
barrowroad wrote:I will post the source of the pins if anyone is interested.



Hi Robin.
It would be useful to know. I have tried the ones I have got, which match the pitch of the connector, but they are not long enough. Curses.
Regards
Tony.


RS Components No. 251-8351

regards

Alan

Hi Alan.
Thanks for the reference.
I had already tried RS but that part number does not appear to be any longer than the ones I already have at 12.5mm mating length. The max they list is under 15mm.
I am currently looking at other options.
Regards
Tony.

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barrowroad
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby barrowroad » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:13 pm

Hi Tony,

I've found the invoice. They were purchased via Amazon from Hobby Components in Chesterfield reference HCPROT0048 20mm Pin 2.54mm Pitch header. They work for me.
Here is the link. https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=hobby+comp ... nb_sb_noss
Robin


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