Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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TonyMont
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby TonyMont » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:31 pm

Hi Tony,
I notice your pointwork has no stretcher bars fitted. I always try to fit these before laying. Please can you tell us what type you will be fitting and how it is done?
Very impressed with what you are acheiving.
Regards,
Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:47 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:
Looking at your images, I notice a stack of made up track panels. Are you laying your plain track in panels even in the fiddle yard?

All Best

Dave

Hi Dave.
The short answer is yes. The reason in a word, expansion. The long answer will follow in due course.
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:11 pm

TonyMont wrote:Hi Tony,
I notice your pointwork has no stretcher bars fitted. I always try to fit these before laying. Please can you tell us what type you will be fitting and how it is done?
Very impressed with what you are achieving.
Regards,
Tony.


Thanks Tony.
Ah, the perennial, but inevitable, question about stretcher or tie bars.
At present I am still cogitating about this as things have moved on a bit since my Green Street days.
The only thing I am sure of is that the point blade operating system will be different between the front and the rear of the layout.
I have recently taken delivery of a large consignment of Cobalt blue point motors, which was not my original intention as my standard was Fulgurex. However these do not seem to be obtainable any more, so a rethink was inevitable and some experimentation required.
So I am going to have to duck this issue for the moment i'm afraid, but it will be covered in due course.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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steve howe
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby steve howe » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:43 pm

Hi Tony,

I have just finished fitting Cobalts to our Watermouth project where the trackwork has quite a variety of stretcher bar systems from the original Studiolith curtain track to the wire in PTFE tube and some Masokits ones. Personally I am very keen on the Masokits ones, but that's just a personal view. In most cases the points are actuated from below baseboard and it proved reasonably simple to set up a springy wire connection between the Cobalt shaft and the point mechanism. The fact the Cobalts have a self-adhesive foam pad to locate them temporarily while the position and adjustments are finalised before screwing in place, makes the positioning of the motors much easier. One point to note: ensure your baseboard frames are deep enough to accommodate the motor - they don't hang down as much as Tortoise, but still need a good 3" clearance. We are very pleased with them and have now changed all the old H&Ms on our club 00 layout to them.

I can post a pic of a typical linkage if its any help.

Steve

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:14 pm

Hi Steve.
Thanks for the info.
A photo or two would be useful i'm sure.
One of the (several) reasons I chose Cobalts in preference to Tortoises was due to the 4" depth of my baseboard frames.
My original scheme had been to mount the point motors near the edge of the baseboards with linkages to the actual point mechanism, but Cobalts don't readily lend themselves to this approach. On Green Street I made my own TOUs based on the original Studiolith design but made from ABS Plastruct sections, 6mm square Paxolin strip and hypodermic tubing. I am tempted to do similar for the scenic points on Brimsdown.
The storage yard points will probably have some variation on the PCB tie bar theme. Whatever I do needs to be reasonably easy to fit as there are some 82 switch pairs to operate in total.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:20 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:Whatever I do needs to be reasonably easy to fit as there are some 82 switch pairs to operate in total.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :?
Tim Lee

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:38 am

Tony,

on the extension to London Road I used Masokits Tie Bars together with the "simple" Ambis version. The attached photo (I can't recall who/where it is from) gives some idea. A Masokits version is on the left and what looks like the Ambis type to the right. The former is rather rigid but designed to givet P4 switch spacing. The Ambis is more flexible but has to be set up so that the etched ends are correctly set onto the thin copper clad bar. I installed the Masokits version first, and then added the Ambis one to match the switch rail spacing.

I don't know if the Ambis product is still available. Alan Austin also produced a rather more complex etched tie bar design, but I never learned how to fold them up correctly.

I modified the Masokits drive wire to that shown in the photo. Mine has a loop in the centre and the drive wire from the Cobalt/Tortoise point motor passes up through a small hole on the baseboard and into the loop, thus providing the drive. This has worked well and has also been used on at least one other (very large) layout AFAIK. You could still extend the tie bar drive wire to a point rodding crank to give the effect of working point rodding.

Apologies for not showing a photo of the London Road modification, but the layout is currently mothballed.

Jol

stretcher bar 2.jpg
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Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:44 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:Whatever I do needs to be reasonably easy to fit as there are some 82 switch pairs to operate in total.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :?

Hi Tim.
I know!
Everything about this project is vast. The storage sidings alone contain over four scale miles of track and a complete circuit will be approximately 1.25 scale miles. If I had stopped and thought seriously about the impossibility of this as essentially a one man project, I would never have started. But then I would never stand a chance of succeeding. Its what I have wanted to do for a very long time and I was not going to pass up the opportunity now it has arisen.
My philosophy is to try to complete a step every day no matter how small. Not always possible of course with other commitments. When one looks back as between the recent postings large strides appear to have been taken. There is still one hell of a long way to go of course. Thoughts also turning to the electrical aspects, which will be a task on their own. Non DCC by the way.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

JFS
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby JFS » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:21 pm

Hello Tony,

Just a suggestion, but faced with a task like this, I always believe in seeing what others have done in similar circumstances. And I would suggest the type of stretcher described by Mike Norris in his article "Stretcher bars on Preston" in Snooze 181. I don't know how many stretchers there are on Mike's layout but given there are well over 500 levers in 5 signal boxes just on the visible side, I suspect it is a lot more than 82!

The clever bit about the design is the way the connecting wires are bent to allow soldering on the "far" side of the PCB - this avoids any tendency for the copper to peel off the laminate which is the usual fault when using PCB. This, along with the way the copper is gapped makes for a sturdy job.

Having made a few of these up, I know them to be very well designed, they are very quick and very easy to make and don't suffer from a tendency to short circuit. And a bottom line says that if they satisfy Mike's criteria for reliability (in the context of a layout like Preston!) then they are reliable!

Coincidentally, in the same magazine is my description of how I used the Ambis versions - which I would recommend if you only had 8.2 to do!

Best Wishes,

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:29 am

Thanks for the suggestion Howard.
I'll check it out.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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Julian Roberts
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:06 pm

Tony I am wondering if I have missed something in which case perhaps you could refer me back to where you covered it. You started with a Templot design but here you effortlessly lay this graceful curving formation without a smidgeon of a template in evidence - as far as I can see! How do you do that? - looks as if it just comes naturally!
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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:03 am

Hello Tony
Yes I found myself wondering the same thing. Is the clue in the pins...?
Andrew

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:25 am

Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:Yes I found myself wondering the same thing. Is the clue in the pins...?

Hi Andrew, Julian,

I can't speak for Tony, but the traditional tracklaying method is:

1. tape template on cork.

2. place assembled trackwork on top and carefully align to template.

3. tap 3/4" or 1" veneer pins exactly vertically into the "corners" between the rail and timbers at a few strategic positions, sufficient to trap the trackwork in the correct location.

4. snip the heads off the pins (wear eye protection, and collect the heads, otherwise they will end up attached to loco motor magnets),

5. prise up the pointwork clear of the pins.

6. tear away the template.

7. apply glue to cork.

8. drop the pointwork back in place over the locating pins, and firm into glue.

9. apply Elastoplast to fingers where you caught them on the tops of the pins.

10. when glue set, pull out the pins.

Image

from:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-vene ... pack/15388

https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-vene ... pack/14421

cheers,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. Enjoy using Templot? Join Templot Club. Be a Templot supporter.

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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:12 am

Hello Martin
Thank you for a very clear explanation of how to do it and, probably how Tony did it. Particularly liked snipping off the pin heads bit....so simple!

Kind regards
Andrew

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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:26 am

JFS wrote:Hello Tony,

Just a suggestion, but faced with a task like this, I always believe in seeing what others have done in similar circumstances. And I would suggest the type of stretcher described by Mike Norris in his article "Stretcher bars on Preston" in Snooze 181. I don't know how many stretchers there are on Mike's layout but given there are well over 500 levers in 5 signal boxes just on the visible side, I suspect it is a lot more than 82!

The clever bit about the design is the way the connecting wires are bent to allow soldering on the "far" side of the PCB - this avoids any tendency for the copper to peel off the laminate which is the usual fault when using PCB. This, along with the way the copper is gapped makes for a sturdy job.

Having made a few of these up, I know them to be very well designed, they are very quick and very easy to make and don't suffer from a tendency to short circuit. And a bottom line says that if they satisfy Mike's criteria for reliability (in the context of a layout like Preston!) then they are reliable!

Coincidentally, in the same magazine is my description of how I used the Ambis versions - which I would recommend if you only had 8.2 to do!

Best Wishes,




Hello Howard
Thanks for the pragmatic suggestion. I looked up Mike’s article and tried it out on just one turnout on Yeovil Pen Mill yesterday and was pretty pleased with the result. I’ll post some pictures of my efforts on Templot soon. I’m thinking of perhaps filling the gap either side of the tiebar with microstrip. Do you know how Mike disguised the trench that would otherwise be evident?
Kind regards
Andrew

Terry Bendall
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:15 am

Martin Wynne wrote:but the traditional tracklaying method is:


For some perhaps but in building six layouts I have never used this method. Perhaps that is mainly due to the fact that most have been modest affairs with little in the way of flowing curves. The only exception is Pulborough and since the track for that was laid in 1986/87 I cannot remember that far back. :)

The process that Martin describes may well work but it seems very ling winded to me. :)

Terry Bendall

JFS
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby JFS » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:22 am

Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:Hello Howard
... Do you know how Mike disguised the trench that would otherwise be evident?
Kind regards
Andrew


Not quite sure which "trench" you are referring to, but if you mean a "gap" in the ballast, then this is present on the prototype also - ie the surface of the ballast is lower in the two beds in which the stretchers are located. There is no way of fitting the things otherwise!!

I am sure that you will have left these when you were ballasting of course, in the same way that you will have used 1.6mm thick sleepers for the same reason ... ... I certainly did.. (Sm*rt *rs*)

Component refitting.jpg


Good Luck otherwise... :(
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Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:13 pm

Hi all.
I go away for a weekend (I have been at Pendon museum with Bodmin NLG) and my thread gets taken over.
I wanted to show where I had got too with the project and was expecting to be asked how I achieved it.
This is I will cover shortly with illustrations, but essentially as per Martin's method, but I use dressmakers pins, which are thinner, and I don't cut the heads off. I also use 1/32" sleepers being ply and rivet construction, in response to Howard's comment. Saves ballast.
Haven't found Snooze 181 yet as my easy to find ones go back to 187, but I will.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

JFS
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby JFS » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:Haven't found Snooze 181 yet as my easy to find ones go back to 187, but I will.
Regards
Tony.


Easy-find versions here Tony:

https://www.scalefour.org/members/newsarchive/

Cheers,

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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:34 pm

JFS wrote:
Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:Hello Howard
... Do you know how Mike disguised the trench that would otherwise be evident?
Kind regards
Andrew


Not quite sure which "trench" you are referring to, but if you mean a "gap" in the ballast, then this is present on the prototype also - ie the surface of the ballast is lower in the two beds in which the stretchers are located. There is no way of fitting the things otherwise!!

I am sure that you will have left these when you were ballasting of course, in the same way that you will have used 1.6mm thick sleepers for the same reason ... ... I certainly did.. (Sm*rt *rs*)

Component refitting.jpg

Good Luck otherwise... :(



Hello Howard
Yes I m aware of the lower ballast level you cheeky so and so. But I am laying my track on 3mm cork so having cut this away as I think Mike suggests in his article, Im left with a bit of a trench that’s a bit deep I feel. I’ll try some micro strip and see how it looks. And no I’m using .8mm sleepers in the station limits at any rate for reasons I won’t go into here for fear of hyjacking Tony’s thread.

Andrew

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:19 pm

Yes I m aware of the lower ballast level you cheeky so and so. But I am laying my track on 3mm cork so having cut this away as I think Mike suggests in his article, Im left with a bit of a trench that’s a bit deep I feel.

It won't be so deep after you have added ballast at the bottom of the trench, along with assorted coke cans, old newspapers etc.
Regards
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:18 pm

It won't be so deep after you have added ballast at the bottom of the trench, along with assorted coke cans, old newspapers etc.
Regards[/quote]

Hello Keith

Youre quite right, the detritus of life! This of course has given me another problem, how to model the an empty Coke can...well what would the equivalanet to an empty Coke can be in 1922?

Andrew

PS Tony sorry for this trivialising of your post. I shall desist forthwith.

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Noel
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Noel » Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:56 pm

Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:Youre quite right, the detritus of life! This of course has given me another problem, how to model the an empty Coke can...well what would the equivalanet to an empty Coke can be in 1922


People were probably far less likely to discard rubbish on the track then. It was much less socially acceptable, and stations had many more staff to see you if you did...
Regards
Noel

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:20 pm

There are quite a few topics to reply to, some of which will be answered as I go along.
To pick up the comments re rubbish. There was certainly less of it about in the distant past, but by the sixties things had begun to deteriorate. At the risk of sidetracking my own thread, Coke cans weren't around so much then as the pull ring can was yet to be invented. One needed a can opener to get into them. Glass bottles were the norm. Also there were the cardboard tetra packs, who remembers Jublies? There was nothing to beat a frozen one on a hot summers day.
As for the trench under the switch tie bars, they were also needed where the point rodding runs pass under the tracks.

Andrew. My original comment wasn’t intended to be a serious remark. I would be much more concerned if I received no responses to this thread.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:39 pm

Rubbish on the tracks alongside the platform at Ramsgate Harbour:

http://www.kentphotoarchive.com/kpa/sea ... enumber=19

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. Enjoy using Templot? Join Templot Club. Be a Templot supporter.


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