Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:18 pm

Colin Parks wrote:
Hi Tony, If the brass components are so expensive (and only cosmetic (?), could you not use plastic slide chairs instead?

All the best,

Colin

One could indeed use the plastic slide chairs rather than the brass ones. All the ones on Green Street are plastic, added after construction, laying and wiring the track.
I just wanted to use the brass slide chairs because I prefer them. I was fortunate enough to be able to purchase a large quantity (hopefully enough) from Len Newman to special order when the P4 version first appeared. I have been building up stock for this project for years. The history and research (which began in the early 1970s) is something I will cover in due course. Most people I mention Brimsdown to have no idea where it is.
Regards
Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:06 am

Hi Tim.
Le Corbusier wrote:Thanks Tony for the explanation.

Strange and confusing in equal measure. I would have thought that a pivoting rivet because of the movement would have been under less stress than the last of the soldered rivets and therefore that this would have been even more likely to fail ... followed by the next etc ... but this self evidently is not the case.

I have certainly known this sequential failure mode to occur where the switch rail is short and relatively stiff. For some years, I made the mistake of only allowing the switch blade to move only where there were slide chairs. All the turnouts on Green Street were made that way and suffered from this. One reason why I prefer to make my switch and closure rails all one piece. The explanation of Block chairs in the P way handbook is not that clear and it took me some years to realise that there were in fact two types, some that allow movement and some that don't. Interestingly this failure mode only seemed to affect the first two soldered joints where the moving block chairs should have been.
It was only when I was asked to build some EM turnouts that I had to increase the moving length and add extra slide chairs to allow for the wider 1mm opening that I began to dig a little deeper and realised the error of my ways.
I suspect that the pivoting rivet failure mode is down to the twisting moment repeatedly applied to the solder joint. Typical electrical solders are not that strong.
Curiouser and curiouser said Alice!

It does beg the question ... is there any point in trying to incorporate rotation at the heel at all, even if you do have separate switch and closure rails?

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Tim


There are engineering solutions for most problems. It is an issue we will have to solve with the current NAG layout as we have bravely / foolishly decided to incorporate a turnout with pivoting switchblades in one of the sidings. Several approaches have been tried, but the current favourite seems to be to extend the foot of the rail beyond the main body of the blade and bend it down 90 degrees to act as a pivot. i.e. file away the head and web for about 10mm to leave just the foot remaining.
Regards
Tony.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:57 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:Hi Tim.
Le Corbusier wrote:Thanks Tony for the explanation.

Strange and confusing in equal measure. I would have thought that a pivoting rivet because of the movement would have been under less stress than the last of the soldered rivets and therefore that this would have been even more likely to fail ... followed by the next etc ... but this self evidently is not the case.

I have certainly known this sequential failure mode to occur where the switch rail is short and relatively stiff. For some years, I made the mistake of only allowing the switch blade to move only where there were slide chairs. All the turnouts on Green Street were made that way and suffered from this. One reason why I prefer to make my switch and closure rails all one piece. The explanation of Block chairs in the P way handbook is not that clear and it took me some years to realise that there were in fact two types, some that allow movement and some that don't. Interestingly this failure mode only seemed to affect the first two soldered joints where the moving block chairs should have been.
It was only when I was asked to build some EM turnouts that I had to increase the moving length and add extra slide chairs to allow for the wider 1mm opening that I began to dig a little deeper and realised the error of my ways.
I suspect that the pivoting rivet failure mode is down to the twisting moment repeatedly applied to the solder joint. Typical electrical solders are not that strong.
Curiouser and curiouser said Alice!

It does beg the question ... is there any point in trying to incorporate rotation at the heel at all, even if you do have separate switch and closure rails?

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Tim


There are engineering solutions for most problems. It is an issue we will have to solve with the current NAG layout as we have bravely / foolishly decided to incorporate a turnout with pivoting switchblades in one of the sidings. Several approaches have been tried, but the current favourite seems to be to extend the foot of the rail beyond the main body of the blade and bend it down 90 degrees to act as a pivot. i.e. file away the head and web for about 10mm to leave just the foot remaining.
Regards
Tony.

Thanks Tony,

Food for thought :thumb
Tim Lee

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Paul Townsend » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:33 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:Hi Tim.
but the current favourite seems to be to extend the foot of the rail beyond the main body of the blade and bend it down 90 degrees to act as a pivot. i.e. file away the head and web for about 10mm to leave just the foot remaining.
Regards
Tony.

That seems an excellent idea.

I will try it on my Broad Guage bridge rail probably making the 10mm extension longer and try to file it to an OD that fits in a brass tube araldited into the oversize baseboard hole to allow for heel position adjustment. Thinking aloud.....once rough filed, turn the spigot in lathe (before bending !)
Actual length will be set by baseboard thickness + baulks etc.

This should improve the strength compared to my previous attempts with soldering a pin into a fine hole in rail base.

In that trial I then soldered a washer under the tube end which stops the heel rising up; tricky to stop it soldering to the tube but the same methods used as in crank pins etc works.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Paul Townsend » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:38 am

Le Corbusier wrote:
It does beg the question ... is there any point in trying to incorporate rotation at the heel at all, even if you do have separate switch and closure rails?

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Tim

Early track with loose heel switches had the switches pretty short so the rotation at the pivot point does show quite well if you can build it in. It does look better than simulating it with a bend.

This applies to bullhead rail and much more to bridge rail for Broad Gauge due to the wider foot.

It would also look good for flat bottom modern rail but I doubt if any turnouts existed using FB rail and loose heel switches!

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:26 am

It would also look good for flat bottom modern rail but I doubt if any turnouts existed using FB rail and loose heel switches!

Probably not in modern UK main line applications, say post 1930. But plenty in light railway, industrial and foriegn applications.
And yes, if modelling loose heel switches you should use loose heels (pivots) but IMHO fancy designs of pivots are not needed, all that is needed is loose fishplates as for many of the prototype designs.
Regards

Phil O
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Phil O » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:45 pm

The GW used a two bolt fishplate and a loose heel chair, basically a double jawed chair, where the jaws are a bit wider apart than the thickness of the Web. When I am back on a computer rather than a mobile phone, I will post a link to a picture.

Phil

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:56 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
It would also look good for flat bottom modern rail but I doubt if any turnouts existed using FB rail and loose heel switches!

Probably not in modern UK main line applications, say post 1930. But plenty in light railway, industrial and foriegn applications.
And yes, if modelling loose heel switches you should use loose heels (pivots) but IMHO fancy designs of pivots are not needed, all that is needed is loose fishplates as for many of the prototype designs.
Regards

Hi Keith,

Would you have a photo of what you use? ... From your post I assume you have used this approach for a fair number of years and it has proved reliable.

Regards
Tim Lee

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:09 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:And yes, if modelling loose heel switches you should use loose heels (pivots) but IMHO fancy designs of pivots are not needed, all that is needed is loose fishplates as for many of the prototype designs.
Regards


Hi Keith.
What stops the switch blade pulling out of the loose fishplates, as this is the issue we (NAG) have been having trying that approach?
Regards
Tony.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:43 pm

My opinion, does not imply extended use! just a degree of confidence. My layout uses flexible switches. I have one trial industrial turnout with the switches in loose fishplates.
The alignment and pivotting is fine and i see no reason why it would not work long term. Tony's question is, however valid.
There are two issues I have not needed to solve, blade retention and blade power feed. Of course, if using battery power you can ignore the latter.
Because I kept losing the switchblades off my demo I did a quick and dirty retention by drilling a hle through the webs of both switch and stock rail and putting a fine wire through, its inconspicious and works but there may be better ways. If the stretcher and drive design is suitable it may provide enough retention without need for anything else. Failing that drill through one of the bolt holes in the loose fishplate and the switch and pin it, emulating the loose bolt used in the prototype.
If you do need a power connection then use of a fine springy wire in an inconspicious place may serve both purposes.
Regards

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Flymo748
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:05 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:I just wanted to use the brass slide chairs because I prefer them. I was fortunate enough to be able to purchase a large quantity (hopefully enough) from Len Newman to special order when the P4 version first appeared. I have been building up stock for this project for years. The history and research (which began in the early 1970s) is something I will cover in due course. Most people I mention Brimsdown to have no idea where it is.


I've just left Tottenham Hale, and I'm just going through Brimsdown :-)

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=51.6580&lon=-0.0328&layers=10&b=1

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Phil O
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Phil O » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:13 pm

As promised, here is a link to a GW loose heel chair, you can just see the two bolt fishplate, the keyed rail is a stock rail. The switch rail is slid through the jaws of chair and is not fixed to it in anyway. It is the 3rd post down as the Templot forum only allows one photo per post.

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?i ... orum_id=12

Phil.
Last edited by Phil O on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

John Palmer
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby John Palmer » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:27 pm

Flymo748 wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:I just wanted to use the brass slide chairs because I prefer them. I was fortunate enough to be able to purchase a large quantity (hopefully enough) from Len Newman to special order when the P4 version first appeared. I have been building up stock for this project for years. The history and research (which began in the early 1970s) is something I will cover in due course. Most people I mention Brimsdown to have no idea where it is.


I've just left Tottenham Hale, and I'm just going through Brimsdown :-)

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=51.6580&lon=-0.0328&layers=10&b=1

Cheers
Flymo

Funny how that railway line stops halfway across a bridge over the River Lea...

Question: How do you find an ordnance factory on an ordnance map? Answer: Look for the areas devoid of any features.
ROF.jpg
Here's the erstwhile ROF at Puriton, just down the road from me. Only the gatehouse appeaars on the one inch map.

@Phil O: Can't see any link in your post to the loose heel chair.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:03 pm

John Palmer wrote:Funny how that railway line stops halfway across a bridge over the River Lea...


Hi John, Paul.

That line went into the Royal Ordnance Factory, home of the Lea Enfield Rifle, amongst others. The line closed in 1962. The other side of the river Lea were a pair of massive iron gates. I walked along that line after it closed and was lifted. It was carried on an embankment most of the way across the flood plain. The crossing of the second bridge was rather parlous being just two large girders for the rails. I crossed it with my feet on one and leaning my bike on the other with the waters of the Lea below me and I can't swim. Needless to say I proceeded with great caution, both there and on the way back.
The map is rather scant on track detail being rather simpler than reality.
Regards.
Tony.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:38 pm

For those who are still none the wiser, Brimsdown is on the Lea Valley line between Liverpool Street (London) and Cambridge, mile post 9 3/4. As well as the passenger traffic there was a busy freight service (lots of coal) with trains between the Temple Mills and Whitemoor marshalling yards plus the many local yards requiring shunting until their steady decline from the mid 1960s onward. The section between Copper Mill junction and Cheshunt escaped the suburban electrification scheme of the late 50s only succumbing in 1967 with the electric service starting in May 1969. Steam effectively finished in September 1962 when Stratford shed closed to steam and East Anglia became the first area of the country to become fully dieselised. It is this in-between period that appeals to me 1963 to 1967.
At one time Brimsdown served the Royal Ordnance Factory, a coal fired power station, a sprawling industrial complex and local goods yard all by rail connections. So would have been a busy place. The ROF connection went first in 1962 followed by the local goods yard in 1965. The 1965 OS maps show just one siding out of three remaining for the local coal merchant. The power station and industrial connections lasting until the mid 70s.
Tony.

IANATEXTON
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby IANATEXTON » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:46 pm

I have been building turnouts with loose heel switches for my late 1920s model of Dulverton. At this period the Great Western used loose heel switches.

I have been using the cast brass C&L fishplates at the heel, with the web of the switch rail slightly tapered with a needle file. The switch blades are retained as the stretcher has a lug which passes through a hole in the stock rail.

Some of the switches have been in place for a couple of years, but have so far seen limited running as the trackwork is not complete yet. So I don't yet know how robust they will prove in the long term.

Ian

John Palmer
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby John Palmer » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:44 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:
John Palmer wrote:Funny how that railway line stops halfway across a bridge over the River Lea...


Hi John, Paul.

That line went into the Royal Ordnance Factory, home of the Lea Enfield Rifle, amongst others. The line closed in 1962. The other side of the river Lea were a pair of massive iron gates. I walked along that line after it closed and was lifted. It was carried on an embankment most of the way across the flood plain. The crossing of the second bridge was rather parlous being just two large girders for the rails. I crossed it with my feet on one and leaning my bike on the other with the waters of the Lea below me and I can't swim. Needless to say I proceeded with great caution, both there and on the way back.
The map is rather scant on track detail being rather simpler than reality.
Regards.
Tony.

Tony, although I'm confident you will already be aware of it, the Britain from Above website has quite a good range of aerial views of the industry at Brimsdown, well worth a look for anyone interested in seeing what was there. Some of the 1926 pictures are particularly clear. https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW005266 will lead you to a picture taken from above the RSAF looking south towards the power station and industrial estate, and shows well the track leading into the RSAF - better than any online ordnance map for showing this particular detail!

I envy you the quality of some of these aerial shots. I have been trying to obtain details of buildings at Burnham from aerial pictures on the Britain from Above site taken in 1953, which is about the right period for our model, but they are just too grainy to yield much useful detail.

Phil O
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Phil O » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:55 am

Sorry, I omitted to add the link to my above post. I have now amended my post to add the link and I have added it here also.

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?i ... orum_id=12.

3rd post down.

Phil

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:49 am

John Palmer wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:
John Palmer wrote:Funny how that railway line stops halfway across a bridge over the River Lea...


Hi John, Paul.

That line went into the Royal Ordnance Factory, home of the Lea Enfield Rifle, amongst others. The line closed in 1962. The other side of the river Lea were a pair of massive iron gates. I walked along that line after it closed and was lifted. It was carried on an embankment most of the way across the flood plain. The crossing of the second bridge was rather parlous being just two large girders for the rails. I crossed it with my feet on one and leaning my bike on the other with the waters of the Lea below me and I can't swim. Needless to say I proceeded with great caution, both there and on the way back.
The map is rather scant on track detail being rather simpler than reality.
Regards.
Tony.

Tony, although I'm confident you will already be aware of it, the Britain from Above website has quite a good range of aerial views of the industry at Brimsdown, well worth a look for anyone interested in seeing what was there. Some of the 1926 pictures are particularly clear. https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW005266 will lead you to a picture taken from above the RSAF looking south towards the power station and industrial estate, and shows well the track leading into the RSAF - better than any online ordnance map for showing this particular detail!

I envy you the quality of some of these aerial shots. I have been trying to obtain details of buildings at Burnham from aerial pictures on the Britain from Above site taken in 1953, which is about the right period for our model, but they are just too grainy to yield much useful detail.


Hi John.
Although I have seen some of these images on my trawls of the internet, I must admit that I have not fully explored this site, so thanks for the link. Although the power station dominated the background view of the area, it is too far away to model any of it, More of a back scene job really.
I was quite lucky in obtaining 6 x 1:1250 OS maps from my local stockist covering the area in the 1965 survey, the week before they were due to be updated with the next survey series. They had all the local area covered on micro film and I would dearly loved to have covered a wider area, but those 6 cost me enough and my then newly acquired Access card took a bit of a bashing that day.
Regards
Tony.

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Armchair Modeller » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:15 pm

Tony,

If you are unfamiliar with the 'Britain From Above' site, then do make sure you register with the site. Then log in on each visit. This allows you to see very large magnifications of the images.

Apologies if you knew this already.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:50 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:Tony,

If you are unfamiliar with the 'Britain From Above' site, then do make sure you register with the site. Then log in on each visit. This allows you to see very large magnifications of the images.

Apologies if you knew this already.


No need to apologise.
Not having used the site, all advise is welcome.
I did once come across company called Aero films who had a few Ariel pictures of Brimsdown, but they were very expensive at the time.
Regards
Tony.

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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Armchair Modeller » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:59 pm

The best way to use the Britain From Above site is to register, then sign in on each visit as I suggested above.

You can then view the images to a large magnification. There is a full screen option too. You can then use screen dumps (Alt+Print Screen in Windows) to copy the part of the image that shows on screen and paste into your favourite image manipulation software. You can merge these screen dumps into a comprehensive, large image of the areas of the photo you want to use. This means your image is free. It also allows you to manipulate the image to improve the quality.

There is a free download option too, but that only downloads a relatively low resolution version of the image.

If you are lucky, you can find some amazing detail in these photos, right down to the make of vehicles in the streets and names painted on PO wagons in sidings. Just one excellent example I found, of Sleaford. https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW035001

Some are quite poor quality though - very grainy and often shot into the sunshine.

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martinm
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby martinm » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:57 pm

Hi there,

Thinking about a 'cakebox', I went back to this site and was impressed by the improvement. The level of zoom available seems improved, more detail available!

Some of the images are actually from Aero films.

regards

martin

Julian Roberts
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:05 am

Tony your trackwork is inspirational, yet is for the fiddle yard. Can I ask the totally banal question, would you not have saved time, but without any disadvantage, by either or both missing out some of the sleepers (other than around switches and crossings) and/or building on pcb sleepers?

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:00 am

Julian Roberts wrote:Tony your trackwork is inspirational, yet is for the fiddle yard. Can I ask the totally banal question, would you not have saved time, but without any disadvantage, by either or both missing out some of the sleepers (other than around switches and crossings) and/or building on pcb sleepers?

Thanks Julian.
That is a perfectly valid question and the answer is very possibly. However, I am not enamoured with the missing timber method as it reduces the strength of the finished track and it doesn't look as good. I did consider the PCB approach as I have used it before. It takes me about an hour to do the riveted timbering for one turnout and a similar period of time to cut and gap all the PCB timbers, so little difference there. Also, have you seen the price of PCB sleeper strip now? I would need quite a lot.
At the end of the day it all comes down to personal preferences and this is mine. I tend to set the bar fairly high for my trackwork and the question is what I would be happy with. I have built a lot of track over the years and refined my techniques in the process. I suppose I do it this way because I want to, although I would readily admit that a full set of etched slide chairs is a bit OTT for fiddle yard P&C. For the miles of straight track in the fiddle yard C&L flexi track will do, because I inherited a load, (I will come to that under baseboards), but I took the decision to use ply and rivet for all the curved track to allow controlled gauge widening. Much of the scenic side will utilise Exactoscale fast track to begin with as the aim is to have the fiddle yard down and a complete circuit of track down and wired by the end of this year.
Regards
Tony.


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