Harton High Staithes inspired Layout

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kelly
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Harton High Staithes inspired Layout

Postby kelly » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:42 pm

So over on the Eversley Green thread it has been suggested a shunting plank would be a good idea to do first. So I've been thinking of a few ideas.

I don't really want to use more than 6ft + storage (probably cassettes for ease), as Eversley Green started out intending to be a small layout, but the plan just grew (as these things do).

Current plan is as below:

test_plank_2017_10_12_2030_30.gif
Revised plan with crossover moved to left as far as possible without board straddling.
sketchboard_2017_10_12_2029_56.png
Revised plan with crossover moved to left as far as possible without board straddling.
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test_plank_2017_10_10_2150_59.png
First plan idea.
test_plank_2017_10_12_2033_02.box
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Last edited by kelly on Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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David Knight
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Re: A shunting plank

Postby David Knight » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:48 pm

Hi Kelly,

All your plans have potential but may I suggest incorporating a run around? It could be done using the fiddle yard/cassette for simplicity but it does add operational options.

Cheers,

David

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kelly
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Re: A shunting plank

Postby kelly » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:50 pm

David Knight wrote:Hi Kelly,

All your plans have potential but may I suggest incorporating a run around? It could be done using the fiddle yard/cassette for simplicity but it does add operational options.

Cheers,

David


The run round is offscene to the left in effect using the cassette to save space. I have limited room to erect a layout at home really, hence the 6ft size limit (the Eversley Green 9ft length is pushing what I could set up at home really, but I can erect that at my fiances if needed, but a shunting plank needs to be usable at home on its own really).
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kelly
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Harton Collery - A P4 shunting plank

Postby kelly » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:47 pm

After some rethinking the plan has been discarded as being too complex for the intentions for it.

harton_high_staithes_-_p4.gif
Harton High Staithes - P4 - V1.5


Natalie suggested looking at Harton Collery, so I've knocked up a plan based in part on High Staithes. It still needs some refinement and some elements will change.

A6 points should be fine as the stock will be the small Harton electrics, with possibly a couple of 0-6-0DH locos and a bo-bo electric, and 4 wheel hopper wagons.
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steve howe
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby steve howe » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:06 pm

Nice scheme :thumb
how wide are you planning to make the baseboard?

Steve

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kelly
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby kelly » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:08 pm

steve howe wrote:Nice scheme :thumb
how wide are you planning to make the baseboard?

Steve


1ft6" as I've already got two boards from Tim Horn that size ready. I ordered them for the Eversley Road plan, but I think I'll switch to 3ftx2ft boards for that to give a bit more room and use the 1ft6" boards for this.
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kelly
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby kelly » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:38 pm

Not much has happened with this as I've just not had the time and attempts to put an exactoscale point kit together left me confused (mainly as I couldn't see the chairs in some cases well enough to distinguish them!). I think I am going to instead look at soldered track instead, due to the current status of the exactoscale range and the fact that most of the track will be covered in coal etc.

The templot drawing needs redoing to reflect some changes needed and I need to order a extra board from Tim horn which will provide the dockside drop in level. There is possibly a bridge across one side with Tyneside electric units shuttling across.
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jon price
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby jon price » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:18 pm

and now the slaters wooden hoppers are back the stock is no problem

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kelly
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby kelly » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:41 am

jon price wrote:and now the slaters wooden hoppers are back the stock is no problem


I have a small number of the parkside br ones that will be suitable (BR hoppers ran through to the high staithes along side the NCB ones (although the Harton workers apparently preferred the NCB ones as they had 8 doors rather than 4)).

I have a small number of the old airfix ones too, which should suffice.

There is a NCB etched kit available from a small supplier too, but it is of the welded type which is too late for us really, I am expecting that the time period will be mid 60s depending on what colour we like best. But the period is also defined by the fact that there are no kits for the complicated bow collectors they had before they bought a number of pantographs from former Sunderland trams.

Will have to have a look at the slaters hoppers and work out when they were all gone as to whether any wooden ones would still be around.
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby DougN » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:36 am

Kelly, the hoppers are the NER wooden type 20Ton. I have ordered 6 kits from Slaters. As years ago (well 2011 to be exact) I went to Scaleforum with the specific aim of buying a trains worth, only to find the old Cooper craft had none in stock... and they have been out ever since. Now that Slaters have sucked them back I am looking forward to the kits. I even have the Bill Bedford etched W irons (from Eileens as it turned out) in stock ready for the new kits! To say the least I am looking forward to this train. In looking at the various types NCB had a heap in the late 50's and 60's in a red livery. I have been searching around for the various types in LNER days.
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kelly
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby kelly » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:00 am

DougN wrote:Kelly, the hoppers are the NER wooden type 20Ton. I have ordered 6 kits from Slaters. As years ago (well 2011 to be exact) I went to Scaleforum with the specific aim of buying a trains worth, only to find the old Cooper craft had none in stock... and they have been out ever since. Now that Slaters have sucked them back I am looking forward to the kits. I even have the Bill Bedford etched W irons (from Eileens as it turned out) in stock ready for the new kits! To say the least I am looking forward to this train. In looking at the various types NCB had a heap in the late 50's and 60's in a red livery. I have been searching around for the various types in LNER days.



Thanks for that information. I have to admit, NCB/ne is not my usual area of knowledge (mainly it is the southern and emus). But Natalie who I am working with on this project and others, has always had an interest in the Harton system (as well as the ner overhead electric locos). And it provides a good opportunity to make a small fairly simple first p4 layout before starting work on eversley green which grew in complexity more than initially intended.

I will look at grabbing a couple of the slater kits if any are available at expo em north or scaleforum.
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby DougN » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:08 am

Kelly, I have checked and my wagons seem to be heading in my general direction. If you ordered them they will probably turn up before mine do! I do hope that they are travelling air mail I would like them before my annual leave in 3 weeks :thumb...
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Guy Rixon
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:38 pm

For many years the Harton system was full of 10.5-ton P4 wagons. Were any of them around in the BR period? And is there a kit these days?

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kelly
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby kelly » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:21 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:For many years the Harton system was full of 10.5-ton P4 wagons. Were any of them around in the BR period? And is there a kit these days?


They started being replaced by the 21t variety iirc by the 1940s/1950s. Hatcher's book on the system iirc states that they worked quickly to get rid of the 10.5t ones to increase productivity and increase the working loads, leading to needing rework of sidings which coincided with closure of some parts during the 50s.

We're looking at around the mid 60s I think, so not sure if much smaller than the 21t were still around, by that time only 21t would have gone to high staithes (the inspiration for the layout), but 10.5t, 13t and others may well have been on other parts of the system.
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby SteamAle » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:53 pm

Although not Harton there are a number of wagons to be seen of various types that may inspire those interested in the North East.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yglORlMs4pI
Beautiful stuff.
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kelly
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Re: A shunting plank - Now Harton Collery inspired

Postby kelly » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:41 pm

It has been a bit of time since I last updated this topic. In that time myself and Natalie have been busy doing research on the Harton and track planning.

We've come up with a potentially viable track plan following efforts in Templot and using boards and templates over them.

Below is the Templot Sketchboard output.

Colours are as follows. Green is the Viaduct to provide the left hand scenic break (which has tyneside electrification on it). Black are cassettes. Blue track is electrified Harton Lines. Purple track is electrified dock line which is representative of the end of a bigger system off scene.

harton_v28_-_sketchboard.png
Templot sketchboard Image


harton_v28.png
Templot Track Diagram


Above is the Templot Diagram for the plan. Points on the dock and Harton electrified sections are mostly A5s, it being fairly tight and locos will be 0-4-0 or Bo-Bo on the Harton and 0-4-0 steam or diesel on the dock. The viaduct has two B7 points. The track that intersects with the dock line is on a gradient down to the level of the docks, with a wagon turntable for occasional wagon exchange (the little bit beyond would have a couple of flat wagons to collect coal dropped by the staithes.

The next stage is to cut some wood for the trackbed supports and get some thinner plywood for the track base and then start building the track work...
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Guy Rixon
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Re: Harton High Staithes inspired Layout

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:22 pm

It looks very interesting. The combination of three different electrifications is attractive.

How high is your staith above the river? IIRC, the RL Harton High Staithes were quite high up, certainly too high for a bank down to dock level. The latter - which I like, BTW - is more like Harton Low Staithes.

Have you sourced the 2,568,342 hoppers needed to stock this layout yet? :) And will they be P4s or the bigger kinds?

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kelly
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Re: Harton High Staithes inspired Layout

Postby kelly » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:30 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:It looks very interesting. The combination of three different electrifications is attractive.

How high is your staith above the river? IIRC, the RL Harton High Staithes were quite high up, certainly too high for a bank down to dock level. The latter - which I like, BTW - is more like Harton Low Staithes.

Have you sourced the 2,568,342 hoppers needed to stock this layout yet? :) And will they be P4s or the bigger kinds?


Only two types of electrification, 3rd rail and overhead tram style.

On photos it doesn't look very high up in comparison with the surroundings, it looks like it is up on a mound. Whereas the low staithes appear to be higher up as they used gravity shunting there. The board with the river will be dropped down relative to the board it attaches to by something like 2". I may have the staithes tracks raised high enough for a loco to go underneath if desired later.

The gradient should be ok I'm hoping, it likely won't be used very often as the reasoning is it allows for collecting a couple of wagons. Whether a 0-4-0 electric will get up it remains to be seen, but a bo bo should be able to I'd expect.

As for hoppers. I currently have a collection of BR 21t riveted, ner 20t wooden (p7), lner 20t riveted, and a few of the old aurfix 21t hoppers with a set of bradwell etches for them. Sadly he only does the welded Ncb hoppers rather than riveted which would be appropriate for a period where Tyneside electric stock was still running (up to 62, welded bodies according to the Hatcher book were introduced about 74). I reckon I need about 3 or 4 rakes of 4 or 8 wagons, with maybe another couple of rakes that can go off scene just after exiting the viaduct going to an off scene staithes (at one point there were at least two there with a lot more dock complexity before a dry dock was put in).

So, probably about 32 hoppers of a variety of types, maybe even a few 13t and 14t ones turning up. 2 Tyneside epbs, e68000 and an area suitable engineers train to add operational interest of single lining the viaduct. The Tyneside epb is in progress and the hoppers are in various states.
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Noel
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Re: Harton High Staithes inspired Layout

Postby Noel » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:56 pm

BR 1/146 welded 21T hoppers were introduced in 1952, and the 1/142 welded 13T hopper in 1949. The 1974 date relates to those hoppers rebuilt by Shildon with welded bodies to a new design https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brhuckbolt21t.
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kelly
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Re: Harton High Staithes inspired Layout

Postby kelly » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:08 am

Noel wrote:BR 1/146 welded 21T hoppers were introduced in 1952, and the 1/142 welded 13T hopper in 1949. The 1974 date relates to those hoppers rebuilt by Shildon with welded bodies to a new design https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brhuckbolt21t.


Thanks for that. I think Hatcher refers to the ncb welded as being rebodied in 74. But those dates mean an even greater variation of br and (l)ner hopper varieties.
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Re: Harton High Staithes inspired Layout

Postby kelly » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:02 am

Have had a slight redesign (nothing drastic) and changed A5 turnouts for A6.5 turnouts to ease things a bit.

harton_v29-sketch.png
Sketchboard file.
harton_v29.png
Templot Diagram


It looks a bit odd at the top right where the cassettes are, but in reality only one would be in place at one time, and 2 are higher than the other one. The only other option would be a point plus a single cassette location. I don't want to add too much more width for accommodation of the storage there ideally.
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