Bodmin General (1955)

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Jeremy Good
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Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Jeremy Good » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:53 pm

"Oh no, not another model of Bodmin General!" The fear, or reality, of this comment has put me off building a model of this station for several years. The reality is, however, that it appeals to me as a layout subject due, not only to the station setting and buildings themselves but mainly because of the intensity of the train service and the mix of WR and SR train services. It's also a manageable size for a largely one-man project.

Scouting around for ideas for my home project kept bringing me back to this station - although I looked at the SR station as well it just doesn't have the variety of trains. The stock requirement for this project woud also match that I am currently building to get Wheal Elizabeth back up and running resulting in better use of the limited modelling time. Encouraged by one or two who should know better to "Scratch the Bodmin itch" I've begun planning the layout which will fit quite nicely in the available space in the loft room without impinging on Wheal Elizabeth or the workbench too much.

Although well photographed and documented in various books, and the modelling press, I'm currently struggling to track down a reasonably accurate scale plan of the station that I can use as a basis to Templot the station to allow me to get the track work built reasonably accurately. Can anyone point me in the general direction of a good, preferably electronic, plan?

Thanks in advance.

Jeremy

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Tim V
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Tim V » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:57 pm

Tim V
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:27 pm

Jeremy Good wrote:I'm currently struggling to track down a reasonably accurate scale plan of the station that I can use as a basis to Templot the station to allow me to get the track work built reasonably accurately. Can anyone point me in the general direction of a good, preferably electronic, plan?

Hi Jeremy,

Templot can now make a screenshot for you from the NLS historic maps, and import it at the correct size for your model scale.

In Templot go to background > maps, and copy and paste this link into the screenshot URL box:

Code: Select all

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=50.4654&lon=-4.7162&layers=176&b=1

Read the notes about screenshots which come up. That 25"/mile map is for 1905, NLS don't seem to have a later large-scale map.

The engine release crossover at that time would seem to be old-type 12ft switches with 1:8 crossings:

Image

which fits exactly between the crossover switch toe marks. It was very likely still the same in 1955?

For more about matching GWR tracks to background maps in Templot, see:

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?i ... =12#p22216

If you prefer, Templot can load the historic 6"/mile map directly from NLS as a tiled map, which is very easy to extend to any size by adding rows and columns of tiles, without making screenshots from your screen. 6"/mile is a bit too small for precise track planning, but it gives you the overall track layout and positions of structures, etc.

The tiled maps should work on all systems, including Mac/Linux/CrossOver etc., if there are problems making the screenshot maps.

regards,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

Jeremy Good
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Jeremy Good » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:01 pm

Thanks Tim and Martin.

I'll have to expand my Templot skills I think so I can try and overlay the templates onto the plan as well as trying to understand the nuances of GWR P-Way construction.

Jeremy

RichardS
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby RichardS » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:19 pm

This a thread I shall follow with interest. The Wadebridge to Bodmin Road line with its attendant branches I find quite absorbing.
Too absorbing, in fact!
My own research phase for a model of the line has now probably lasted 10 years or more. #sigh
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Richard

I'm not always a railway modelling heretic

Jeremy Good
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Jeremy Good » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:53 pm

Thanks for all your comments so far. Like you, Richard, this has been an area I have been loosely researching for about 15 years but most of that time has been spent trying to decide which bit of the lines of this part of Cornwall to model. Having been involved with building St Merryn, I didn't think Padstow would be a good idea and for operational intensity/variety have decided Bodmin General makes more sense - the fact that I can use the stock for Wheal Elizabeth as well is a fortunate bonus!

I need to do a refresher course on Templot now that I can see how to get the base plan uploaded so hopefully there will be a few days when I can actually sit down and concentrate on the track template in the next week or so if work doesn't intervene, again.

In the meantime, I've been looking at the stock requirement for the trains themselves.

Based on the 1955 workings as detailed in GWRJ it is clear that I need 2 B-Sets for the WR services and that one of these got swapped mid-week for a fresh set - that's the easy bit. There also appears to be a single, non-corridor brake composite that operated on the early morning return trip to Bodmin Road. So far, the identity of that coach, or even the type/diagram of coach has been elusive although a similar post on RMWeb has raised some suggestions - does anyone know what (or what diagram) this loose coach was?

There is also a suggestion that a Brake Third was also used on a daily basis to strengthen the afternoon school train - again does anyone have any idea what diagram of coach this may have been?

The SR services are a bit easier to understand being mainly P-Sets and thanks to the St Merryn team I have some indication what type of vehicle the additional morning school coach was...

I look forward to hearing if anyone has any details of the coaches used on the WR services.

Jeremy

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chrisf
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby chrisf » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:50 am

There is no mention of the brake third allegedly used to strengthen the afternoon school train in the 1955-56 carriage working programme. If it were a regular occurrence it would surely have been shown. If it were an occasional working it would have been shown in the appropriate weekly notice. I don't rate anyone's chances of finding one of those. In a past GWRJ there is a photograph of what used to be a toplight D47 brake third attached to a B set. Various explanations have been proffered but mine is that it was the weekly passage of Stores Van No. 2.

The extra brake composite is less easy to pin down. An E157, 6265, was allocated to Liskeard for the Looe branch and branded accordingly. That does not mean that it was confined to the Looe branch. Another, 6218 I think, was branded "Return to Princetown" some time after the branch was closed. The answer may lie among the final batch of E167 brake composites which were intended to work in pairs as Plymouth B sets but were soon disbanded to work singly where traffic required. The definitive answer will come when someone turns up a photo of the morning school train. Given its timing this may be a forlorn hope.

Chris

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Re6/6
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Re6/6 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:59 pm

Jeremy, as Chris said this picture shows a 'van 3rd' in somewhat of an altered condition attached to a B-Set rounding the curve running into Bodmin Road.

Also some Hawksworths on a special.
Toplight Van 3rd Bodmin Rd.jpg


Bodmin Hawksworth 2.jpg


Bodmin Hawksworth 3.jpg
John

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Noel
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Noel » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:35 pm

The Hawksworth coach [it appears to be the same one in both photos] is a 1958 conversion of a BCK of diagram E164 to a double-ended slip, one of three, 7374-76, painted chocolate and cream.
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Noel

Jeremy Good
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Jeremy Good » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:14 pm

Thanks John. The photos of the slip coach are interesting and when I saw them previously they nearly caused an interesting diversion to my modelling plans but the fact that it is coupled to D6326 suggests that it is a bit later than 1955!

The other photos in that series on the RCTS Photographic Archive website suggests that the coach behind is a brake composite to Diag 167 (Lot 1777), W6282W, but they seem to be dated 6 September 1963 so are a bit later than my period. It might be a clue to the identity of the elusive loose brake composite...

Following an earlier exchange with Chris it looks like the Van Third could well be the stores vehicle and I wonder if that photo is the cause of the suggestion that there was a mythical additional coach on one of the afternoon services.

The SR services seem to be reasonably straightforward comprising generally Mansell P-Sets but with an additional Open Third attached to the morning school service. There is some photographic evidence of one or two ex-LSWR 58ft coaches (as recently produced by Hornby) still being in the area in the early 1950's but I suspect that by 1955 they'd be fairly rare.

In the light of the comments about the morning brake compo, I have been looking into how to model either an E157 or E167 and see that Worsley Works offer coach side etches for both vehicles. Are these any good and does anyone know if there is a published drawing of either diagram that I could track down?

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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby RichardS » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:36 pm

Jeremy there is one picture of a P set at Bodmin North which is augmented by a Mk1. While P sets undoubtedly visited General and Road I haven't seen a picture of an augmented set at these stations. I believe that the last train each day to Bodmin Road used southern stock.

The Southern stock pre Maunsell P Sets (which appeared in the late 50s) were I believe a 58ft Maunsell Conversion All Third paired with a 56ft LSWR Composite (eg set 51.) The sets using 2 of the Hornby 58fts (eg Set 44) were allocated to the western division and probably visited the NCR and maybe the B&W but as yet I have not yet seen a picture of one between Wadebridge and Bodmin.

The pics posted above are really helpful. Specials are a rarely recorded event but I have found references to Circus Trains on the B&W for example as well as trains taking animals, cavalry etc to the Royal Cornwall Show at Wadebridge. Probably pre BR days but 'rule one' can always be applied.

There is also of course the very occasional workings via the NCR when the Main WR route was closed but sadly these too are rarely mentioned.

You will be aware of Chris Tooth and Chris Knowles-Thomas amongst several others who have posted much information about these lines on RMweb particularly about carriages.
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Richard

I'm not always a railway modelling heretic

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chrisf
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby chrisf » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:56 am

I have seen the Worsley Works etches, which were commissioned by a friend of mine. A drawing of the E167 appeared in Model Railway Constructor for January 1964 and I understand that it was used in the preparation of the etch. The drawing of the E157 used to prepare the etch was ex-Swindon, bought by me from Stewart Blencowe at the Warley show some years ago.

Chris

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Re6/6
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Re6/6 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:05 am

Jeremy, here's a tweaked version of the picture which shows more clearly the rather odd configuration of the side with some panels sheeted over. Also another of the Hawksworth.
Toplight 3.jpeg


Bodmin Hawksworth 1.jpg
John

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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby IANATEXTON » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:38 pm

There is an article about the Toplight coach by David Geen in Pannier, the Journal of the Great Western Study Group - issue 19 from Summer 2004. David identifies the coach as having originally been from lot 1195 to diagram D47, and as one of two which were taken into WD service in World War 1 as part of an ambulance train. Such vehicles were converted in the 1920s after return to the GWR - in this case it looks as though the first compartment was removed to give extra luggage space. David's article suggests that this coach was originally either 3556 or 3559.

With regard to the slip coach, it seems that several slip vehicles were demoted to branch line service after the end of slip coach workings. There are several views of Hawkesworth slip coaches appearing in branch trains working out of Taunton - at least to Chard and Yeovil. I have a picture of W7375W at Chard on 1 September 1962.

I also have a picture of Collet slip coach W7070W at Chard on 30 April 1960.
Ian

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chrisf
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby chrisf » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:01 am

There was quite a concentration of decommissioned slips at Taunton. One reason is said to be the realisation that the journey from there to Torrington in a B set was a long one without toilets. IIRC the Taunton - Chard line closed after the 1962 summer service, followed in due course by Taunton - Yeovil, Taunton - Barnstaple and dispersal of the ex-slips.

I have David Geen's article to which Ian refers. What I do not have is a photograph known to be of Stores Van No. 2 or any other idea why a coach clearly more likely to be in departmental use than carrying passengers would be in a train on the Bodmin branch. We have the makings of a learned debate ...

Chris

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chrisf
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby chrisf » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:43 am

A penny has just dropped. If, as we are told, the train with the odd coach is entering Bodmin Road from the branch then it is going the wrong way for said coach to be the stores van. My apologies!

Chris

Jeremy Good
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Jeremy Good » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:43 pm

Chris

Having just checked the caption of the photo in GWRJ it refers to that train being an up afternoon working on 17 May 1956 (a Thursday) approaching Bodmin Road. That may well, therefore, imply that the coach was a strengthener. However the timetable shows only one working to Bodmin Road mid-afternoon which was the 3.28pm ex Wadebridge to Bodmin Road. This arrived BG at 3:51 pm and departed at 3:58 pm - this which would appear to tie in school ending time and the school train going the other way (4.08 pm from Bodmin Gen) - but is shown in the Service Timetable in GWRJ as a Mixed train.

It is interesting to note, however, that the coach diagrams shown in that article show a school days only working from Bodmin Gen to Wadebridge at 4.08 pm and ECS return (ex-Wadebridge at 4:43pm) which is presumably the school train but makes no mention of any additional coaches. It also appears to go nowhere near Bodmin Road on that part of the diagram.

Thanks for your comments about the E157/E167 - I'll have to try and track down a copy of the drawings.

Jeremy

RichardS
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby RichardS » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:24 pm

chrisf wrote:A penny has just dropped. If, as we are told, the train with the odd coach is entering Bodmin Road from the branch then it is going the wrong way for said coach to be the stores van. My apologies!

Chris


"The wrong way" Chris? Please could you eluicdate for those who might be puzzling over this? Well me anyway.
Thanks
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Richard

I'm not always a railway modelling heretic

Jeremy Good
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Jeremy Good » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:52 pm

Richard,

To answer your query, assuming I'm understanding Chris correctly from a previous discussion, the Stores Van ran on a circuit which would have taken it on a fairly long-winded route around the South West and back to Swindon over the course of the working week.

I understand that this was a one-way circuit and the Van would have run on a Thursday from Penzance into Bodmin Road onto Bodmin General and then out towards Wadebridge and later Okehampton - there was no return working. Chris has previously referred me to a series of articles in GWRJ issues 43 to 47 which cover this.

Jeremy

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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby RichardS » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:02 pm

Thanks for that Jeremy. It's the little things like this which really help one to understand the workings of a railway and why certain things happen.

In an earlier post I referred to an augmented P set in Bodmin North. I have now found the picture which appears on page 76 of the recent 50th Anniversary of Southern Finale published by Steam Days. I've seen the picture in b&w somewhere too. And although nothing to do with Bod Gen it is nevertheless interesting even if only to demonstrate that what is the accepted norm is not always the case i.e that it was P set and Maunsell TO/SO

I stand corrected regarding the Mk1 as I think it is actually a Bullied SK.

The date cited is Whit Monday 18 May 1959 and it is the 2.52 ex Padstow. As this is a bank holiday and the schools would be shut I am guessing the augmentation was to cater for locals spending a day at the seaside or other holiday traffic vice versa. Whitsun was of course one of the main holiday weeks at this time.

I have two other saved articles relevant to Bodmin North which I'm sure you must be aware of. GWRJ Issue 65 Winter 2008 - Traffic Operations on the Bodmin Branch and Station Survey - Bodmin by Norman Hartley which I think was in Back Track.(no idea which one now) If you need either please ask.

I wonder how many vital pictures lie undisturbed in the collections of unsuspecting holiday makers, tourists and so forth who just happened to 'snap' the train the travelled on.
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Richard

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chrisf
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby chrisf » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:18 pm

I've just spent half an hour typing a reply but it seems to have disappeared into cyberspace. I do hope it turns up ...

Chris

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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby chrisf » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:17 pm

As I was saying before my post vanished into cyberspace … !

Jeremy has understood the position re the stores van correctly but I thought it might help if I explained a bit more.

There were five Stores Vans on the WR. Stores Van 2 covered the West of England. The circuit was tweaked from time to time but this is what it was in 1955, which is of concern to Jeremy.

Monday: loading at Swindon. Tuesday: Swindon – Taunton – Barnstaple Junction – Exeter St Davids – Newton Abbot. Wednesday: Newton Abbot – Plymouth North Road – Penzance. Thursday: Penzance – Bodmin Road – Wadebridge – Okehampton – Exeter St Davids – Taunton. Friday: Taunton – Bristol TM – Bath Spa – Swindon.

Stores Van 2 was replaced in January 1955. Until then the van used was a former Royal brake van. The “new” vehicle was converted from a D47 Toplight Brake Third, 2375, painted red and renumbered DW150005. Its D47 parentage is one reason why I thought that the photograph showed it. The other is that it appears to have few if any door handles. Whether that makes it suitable for conveying schoolchildren is a matter of opinion!

Chris

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ianpenberth
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby ianpenberth » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:48 pm

chrisf wrote:If, as we are told, the train with the odd coach is entering Bodmin Road from the branch...


Chris, I'd suggest that it is not. I've long had a problem with that caption (in GWRJ 65). It states that the photo shows the approach to the station with the southern end of the viaduct over the River Fowey in the background, but the rock cutting behind the loco doesn't exist at that location; the ground falls away there. I did query it with John Copsey but without resolving the discrepancy: IIRC he said he'd quoted information supplied with the photo.

It's tempting to surmise that we're looking at the north end of the viaduct with the train going the other way, but I'm not sure that the lie of the land and the curvature of the line support that interpretation either.

A bit of a mystery, to me at least (that _is_ a rock cutting isn't it :?: ).
Ian
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chrisf
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby chrisf » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:02 am

Thank you, Ian. Your observation is a timely reminder that it is always a good idea to be wary of captions because not everyone who writes them knows what he/she is talking about!

Last night I thought it would be a good idea to remind myself of the article in GWRJ65. Doing so has promised a few observations. The photograph on page 35 taken at Wadebridge shows a train for Bodmin with an extra coach described as a corridor third. It looks more like a brake third to me. It is a pity that we do not know exactly when Peter Treloar took the photo. The B set in the top picture on page 45 is branded for the Newquay branch. I suggest that this is highly probable because the carriage cleaning was carried out at Newquay. If only two B sets were allocated to Bodmin a replacement would have had to be supplied while one of them was being cleaned. The set in the top photo on page 46 is clearly not an E140 or E145 because it does not sport the recessed doors to the guard's compartment. The almost vertical sides above the high waist suggest that it is an E147. Another E147 is shown in the bottom photo on page 47 but I would not want to swear that yet a third example is in the middle photo on the same page.

While on the subject of photos, I ought to point out that those of the chocolate and cream slip coach a few posts ago were taken by the late John Cull and are now in the care of the RCTS. In Another Place one is liable to get into hot water for posting copyright images without permission or acknowledgement.

Chris

Jeremy Good
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Re: Bodmin General (1955)

Postby Jeremy Good » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:55 pm

I've been continuing my reading over the last few days and reached the last part (Part 33) of the Model Railway Constructor articles on the construction of the NLG model of the station.

That last article includes a photograph by M Mensing taken in, I think, 1959 showing 4569 on a three coach train waiting to leave the station on the 13:23 Wadebridge to Bodmin Road. The loco is in lined green so it is a bit too late for my period but I wonder whether the first coach behind the loco may give us a clue to the identity of the loose BK that was in use for the other services.

This coach, the first in the train, appears to be a loose coupled vehicle separate from the close coupled B-Set behind. In profile it is similar to the Collet coaches of Dia E147 that would/could have formed one of the service trains. This could suggest that this vehicle is either an E147, or perhaps an E157, but it isn't an E167, one of the Hawksworth designed vehicles.

I don't know if anyone else has studied that picture and has any idea what diagram that vehicle is but if they have, can you please let us know?

Thanks

Jeremy


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