Construction of a Test Track

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:32 pm

Hi Tim, :D

Don't want to give too much away at the moment, but this is something I am working on for my new layout - saw a great example of just that at last year's Newcastle show and it worked well.

Dubbieside had sound added on the main line around the back and general shunting sounds going on in the docks below. The back one worked from my phone and it was attached around the back to a pair of speakers hidden behind the back scene. Complete trains were recorded running past with the correct locos and formation passing by on the upper main line. I liked to operate it when on duty behind the scenes. It was better than simply locos with chips as you had the complete sound of the train running by. My own favourite was of an A4 and train which passed steadily by, but after disappearing from the scene could be heard sounding its chime whistle in the distance.

Don't know if you have seen another friend Mike Walshaw's depiction of a military camp railway, but it is excellent and sound is distributed around the layout depending on where the locos are working. Mike had a specific system built for his layout. It also has deep sounds and sounds wonderful. In America most of the lads I know have had sound chips for years fitted to their locos. The last time I was across they were discussing new chips that had come on to the market there on to which you could add the sounds yourself - cost at the time $25! Why are we paying so much for chips in this country?

Could I suggest that you consider joining MERG as loads of sound things are available via them - you do have to do your own assembly - but I will be posting on some of the kits in a couple of months when I get round to trialling them for my own layout. There are several ways of doing what you want by the way - but if you wait as I say we will maybe go into all that in hopefully Nov/Dec if all goes well with my own layout building.

Don't want to distract from Colin's thread as I am enjoying it and am pointing others to it who are going through the same stage at the moment in our Starters Group. I am off now to cut some wood. :thumb
Last edited by Allan Goodwillie on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:34 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote: There are several ways of doing what you want by the way - but if you wait as I say we will maybe go into all that in hopefully Nov/Dec if all goes well wit my own layout building.


Sounds fascinating ... I shall look forward to it :thumb

Tim
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:06 pm

Hi Tim, :)

If you are intending a few experiments of your own, consider posting them on the forum and do not wait for me. If you are going to Scalefourum this year then we could also meet and I could show you some of the MERG stuff if you are interested. I will be down helping John Stocks with his layout and would be happy to share a little time. :) I will say right away, I am no expert :geek: in electronics, but most of the modules are fairly straightforward to construct and use. They are also fairly cheap so a few mistakes will not blow the bank - they do take time to put together, but not so bad if doing batches (a bit like wagons), but assembly can have its own fascination and you will probably have MERG members nearby and gain a few new friends into the bargain.

Lindsay Galloway and I have been going along to our local group meetings and exchanging ideas. Burntisland will have a certain amount of electronics fitted to the new section over the next couple of years, although I admit it is mainly for my own project that I am going along. Should always be learning something new and add the worthwhile stuff to what you know works already. :thumb

Colin, if you are going to be there I would extend the same invitation to met up at Scalefourum. Rather than using the forum, we could chat by email behind the scenes.

Colin Parks

Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:31 pm

Hi Allan,

It would be great to meet up with you but I regret that due to health issues I will not be attending the Scaleforum. I have ordered some Ballast Bond, so will be posting results of a test with that product soon. Meanwhile, my thoughts are turning to auto coupling magnets...

Colin
Last edited by Colin Parks on Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:26 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote: I will be down helping John Stocks with his layout and would be happy to share a little time. :)


I am hoping to visit on the Sunday and will definitely be spending some time admiring Kettlewell - Pre-grouping Midland being my own particular interest at the moment - so will introduce myself.

Much appreciated ;)
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:50 pm

Thanks both, sorry to hear about your health issues Colin, I had a couple of issues two years ago either of which might have meant I would not be here today, fortunately both were resolved in time, but I did not produce anything over a two year period. I will look forward to meeting at Scalefourum.

John's layout works very well, looks great and was his first layout - remarkable. John took over from me as the West of Scotland Chairman and has been exceptional in that role, can't speak highly enough of John. So feel free to ask John anything about his layout - his background is electrical engineering and I am picking up things from him all the time.

He is intending running Midland at least part of the time, but I am not sure when exactly over the weekend, but even if not I am sure he will be willing to haul things out of boxes. I personally would be pleased to see it Midland all weekend, but John, like myself when I am exhibiting, likes to have friends bring something along to run. :D This is a hobby for sharing after all.

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kelly
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby kelly » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:57 pm

It is a shame you can't make Scaleforum Colin, I'm sure we'd have found time to discuss things SR EMU (I'm certain Natalie would join in too at length). Hopefully another show/time etc. Look forward to seeing your plans progress, been following with interest.

I should have MERG stuff with me too I expect, might even have some kits partly finished by then too.
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Colin Parks » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:11 pm

A little more progress on the Howard Bolton escapement units, designed for operation on Howard's Minories layout. These units will operate the switches via near-scale size adjusting cranks and drive rods, which will be all that is visible above the base board It has been very hard to photograph these mechanisms from an angle that shows how they work! The first shot shows the unit upside down, so the tube resting on the work surface will pass through a hole and ...

IMG_8554 (2).JPG


... another tube, 1 mm dia, will have the crank pinned and soldered to it. This is then passed through the unit and soldered at the bottom end. I had made the crank, drive rods and stretcher bar bracket as one assembly, but realised that it would have been impossible to lay the rails and then insert the 1 mm tube down the hole in the base board, so these parts have now been divided again at the turnbuckle joint (seen to the right). This joint is electrically insulated to avoid any shorting between switch blades of different polarities, as the escapement units will all be driven by metal cranks and 1 mm rodding. Well that is the theory. This shot shows the units the right way up. As can be seen, soldering is not my strong point.

IMG_8557 (2).JPG


The rod which drives the escapement unit from the lever frame is not shown.
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kelly
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby kelly » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:34 pm

Impressive Colin, I'd be tempted to do similar, but I think I'll stick to the simpler computer route/signal route via MERG CBUS/JMRI.
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:40 pm

Hi Colin :)

Good luck with the mechanism - despite its size it looks robust enough that it may be able to work properly. I remember many years ago managing to get some of the Colin Waite bits and pieces to work by having a normal concealed operating unit below the baseboard and the cranks operating backwards down the line towards the signal box. I also had catch points that were operated from the main turnouts to begin with, but sadly they did not last any time before I had to disengage the mechanisms and resort to normal turnout methods. I think looking back that this was due to the lack of a smooth steady motor to do the job and the difficulty of rough handling for baseboards going to exhibitions etc.

Chris in our starters group managed to get a facing point lock working in time for his demonstration layout at Scalefourum last year and it continues to work I am pleased to say.

This little kit looks to be robust enough - I have enough of Colin's etches which I bought years ago to keep me going for a couple of layouts yet, they do take time to build but look the business. When doing the point rods on Burntisland ( I get all the choice jobs :!: ) I used the white metal castings (MSE) which were available - they were only going to be seen at a distance. Since it was 1883 I assumed that the Stevens rods were round tube - they produced tubing for gas originally and what I used was fishing line glued in with superglue. This may seem a strange choice, but it has worked and stayed in place despite rough treatment from time to time. :thumb

This allowed me to run point rods under rails with there being no chance of any shorting. Once painted they looked the part. If they were caught accidentally when track rubbers were being used then they simply stretched but returned to their previous shape. I wondered what colour they were way back then and it turned out that they were painted red oxide. The use of galvanisation started during the Napoleonic wars and was a French invention - after the wars it took a while to come to Britain and when it did Webb took out a Patent on it - so that slowed down the introduction until the patent ran out. Webb also patented the U section rod that we know today which allowed easier replacement and building, previously the round stuff used to screw together, not easy to repair in the middle of a longish length I should imagine.

I doubt if I will go as far as you Colin on my new layout, but I will keep my mind open and see how you progress - I am always open to new ideas providing they work. I know how much Chris is proud of getting his point lock to work, so there is a good chance of you being successful and I for one would not wish to put you off after all it is part of the fun/challenge and excitement of this hobby tackling such things. :)

DSC01504 (2).jpg
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Colin Parks » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:11 am

Hi Allan,

Your fishing line rodding looks very convincing and avoids the risk of shorts. As I am using functional metal parts around the switches, I shall be adding a smear of epoxy glue (or possibly cyano) to the under side of rails in close proximity. I have previously used 16 thou. guitar strings for cosmetic point rodding - also very resilient. Thanks for the information on point rodding. I had not really given much thought to what had been used prior to the U section type.

That mechanism in the pictures is etched from 28 thou. nickel-silver, as are all the other point operating components sub-base board. They are very robust. The scale size parts are also etched in nickel silver, though from much thinner material. The only parts of the scale size point rodding which will have to work are the adjusting cranks next to the switches and the stretcher bar drive rods themselves.

Operational scale point rodding would be possible with the parts that I have and these would be driven backwards towards the signal box, as you describe that you once did with your Colin Waite parts. I have not decided if this is feasible due to having to include working compensating cranks in each rodding run. Also, the scale size clevis etches are minute, requiring a great deal of micro-soldering to produce the many working joints that would be needed and, unlike your Chris, working point locks are not likely in any case!

Colin

(Edited to correct the specified thickness of the nickel sliver etchings which are 28 thou. - not 18 thou. as previously stated.)
Last edited by Colin Parks on Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:50 pm

:) Yes Colin, I think what did for mine was probably due to taking the layout to exhibitions - it is very difficult to keep point rods clear of debris. Watching formula 1 while doing this, complete shambles in Singapore - talking about debris!

I have invested in a small hoover to clear debris and loose scenic materials prior to exhibiting, very useful after cleaning track as it stops material building up between check rails etc. What I found with the point rods was that they became progressively stiffer until the weakest joint went. I did try light oiling, which helped a little, but this if anything continued to draw dirt.

I use slotted paper to keep clean the drive to the points so that ballast etc. has great difficulty in getting down to the mechanism. (Brown sticky tape works OK on cork)

No harm in going for such things and maybe more possible with a home layout. :thumb Unlike Chris, I do not need any facing point locks as the Wemyss system did not have any being a coal railway. :| However I am still impressed when anyone manages to get such like things working. Howard's mechanism is an interesting possibility. I have no end of tales that can be told about the various mechanisms on Burntisland or getting my ash plant and tippler to operate on Dubbieside - maybe something to discuss on another thread sometime. Good luck. Back to the carnage of F1!

Colin Parks

Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Colin Parks » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:52 pm

Hi Allan,

What you say about layout cleanliness has been noted. Stray ballast can be quite irksome, so that is why I am being so careful in my choice of adhesive. One problem that will not occur is ballast entering the point operating mechanisms because Howard has designed the drive unit to locate in a tight fitting hole though the base board.

The matter of point rodding seizing up is not something I had considered, but one concern I do have is that most of the switches are made from flat bottom rail which, being stiffer than bullhead, might be too much of a strain on the scale size adjusting crank. As mentioned before, making the rodding runs work as well might be too much for my skills, though Howard has demonstrated that his design and methods do work.

Colin
Last edited by Colin Parks on Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JFS
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby JFS » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:44 am

I see my name mentioned, so here I am!

I would certainly agree that stray ballast is a complete nightmare and should be eliminated at source rather than becoming an on going issue to contend with. Before building the current opus I built a "test track" to try out a number of things (including working rodding!) and at the time everyone was raving about Johnson's Klear as the dog's dodahs for fixing ballast. Well, what a @*(&|^% nightmare. For the seven or so years since, I have been carting it to exhibitions where I have been demonstrating track building and EVERY time I up-end the board, more ballast falls off. To the extent that much of the track is now bereft of any ballast at all. Of course, it only needs one bit to get behind a switch and that is a guaranteed derailment. With previous layouts, I also had issues with loose ballast interfering with under-baseboord drives to switches, so both of these issues led me to the solutions I have now adopted. Of course, the results will be on display for all to see at Scaleforum this weekend so people can judge for themselves. This will be our third public showing of the layout as a whole and each time it has to be biffed and bashed down from and back to the loft...

Just also to remind others that although Colin will not be at Scaleforum in person, he is represented in spirit as his scratch-built 4 SUB will be centre stage on Minories. Those who followed its construction on RMWeb will already know that it is worth the trip to Aylesbury just to see that!

Looking forward to hearing how it goes Colin - good luck!

Best Wishes,

David Thorpe

Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby David Thorpe » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:53 pm

Best method I've found for ballasting is this one: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... per-track/ . I've used it and have found that it's not too messy, it's neat, it's not wasteful, and the ballast is rock solid.

DT
Last edited by David Thorpe on Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kelly
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby kelly » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:11 pm

I'll be sure to try to get more time to look at Howard's impressive layout and Colin's 4SUB than I had at Warley last year (DEMU stuff prevented me seeing a lot of the show).

Looking forward to the show (I'll be on the DEMU stand as usual).
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:46 pm

JFS wrote:I see my name mentioned, so here I am!

I would certainly agree that stray ballast is a complete nightmare and should be eliminated at source rather than becoming an on going issue to contend with. Before building the current opus I built a "test track" to try out a number of things (including working rodding!) and at the time everyone was raving about Johnson's Klear as the dog's dodahs for fixing ballast. Well, what a @*(&|^% nightmare. For the seven or so years since, I have been carting it to exhibitions where I have been demonstrating track building and EVERY time I up-end the board, more ballast falls off. To the extent that much of the track is now bereft of any ballast at all. Of course, it only needs one bit to get behind a switch and that is a guaranteed derailment. With previous layouts, I also had issues with loose ballast interfering with under-baseboord drives to switches, so both of these issues led me to the solutions I have now adopted. Of course, the results will be on display for all to see at Scaleforum this weekend so people can judge for themselves. This will be our third public showing of the layout as a whole and each time it has to be biffed and bashed down from and back to the loft...

Just also to remind others that although Colin will not be at Scaleforum in person, he is represented in spirit as his scratch-built 4 SUB will be centre stage on Minories. Those who followed its construction on RMWeb will already know that it is worth the trip to Aylesbury just to see that!

Looking forward to hearing how it goes Colin - good luck!

Best Wishes,


Hi Howard,

Your description of the ballast falling off after having been fixed with Klear is a little concerning Howard! The product that I have tried, Quick Shine is supposed to be a substitute for the orignal formula Klear. The Klear that I tried some years ago (at least six) was useless for fixing glazing, being, as I found out, to be of the 'new' formula. The test length of ballast stuck with Quick Shine seems rock solid. However, would these floor finishing products have a limited lifespan I wonder?

Re. the 4 SUB on your layout, there is far more of interest to see on Minories than that!

All the best,

Colin

Colin Parks

Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:54 pm

David Thorpe wrote:Best method I've found for ballasting is this one: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... per-track/ . I've used it and have found that it's not too messy, it's neat, it's not wasteful, and the ballast is rock solid.

DT


Thanks for the link David. The track certainly does look neatly done. However, the method shown is for thin-sleepered track, whereas mine is thick-sleepered. So perhaps this method is not applicable to my needs, although I will be using that method in areas where the point rodding runs are to go, which are to be thinly ballasted.

As it is I am still undecided about adhesive for ballast as the Deluxe product has not turned up yet. At around five pounds for 100ml, it had better be good!

All the best,

Colin

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:27 am

Hi Colin, :)

Sorry I have not had time to do my ballast tests yet as I have been trying to get a Co-Bo re-wheeled ready for the weekend and some stock fettled for John Stocks' Kettlewell, but the recent posts about ballasting are proving interesting. The original P4 instructions suggested laying the track using PVA and ballast at the same time. Looking at the good Captain's method I am sure it will be perfectly workable and clearly controllable (although a little time consuming - although time and care taken over baseboards, track and wiring pays for itself over and over again.) He does not mention a wetting agent being added to the glue mix, I think I may try that, but it may mean that the ballast may lift out of the glue when hoovering - I will try it and see on a test piece. With thicker sleepers I would still spray with a water and detergent mix and then add thinned PVA using an eye dropper.

I have a series of articles going in the snooze at the moment which looks at different experiments I have tried out on a layout I have been building at home. The final section will cover the good, the bad and the ugly. It is also a comment on the problems with "fashion" - there will always be those who want to make a name for themselves so that they may make profits from some product or other and they recommend without really trying out the idea properly. Magazines are always looking for the latest and do not help from that point of view either. My new layout is based on what I have learned from this experimental layout and I am trying to pool what I have learned from building this and various portable layouts I have been involved in constructing over the years.

I am sure you will appreciate Michael Godfrey's beautiful point work elsewhere in the snooze which includes detectors etc. I hope I have another chance to meet up with him at Scalefourum this year again. He always brings one or two works of art along for the display. Michael must be one of the most travelled members as he comes over form Australia each year to attend the society show and of course visits family while he is here. His detective work before building anything says a lot about his approach and I am sure you are going through such things with the third rail aspect of modelling.

I too am looking forward to seeing Howard's layout as well and will look out for your unit - totally different to what we model up this end of the country.

I have nothing as complex on my new layout, which is very much an everyday scene and has little grandeur, in fact, it is mainly made up from Y points which were very popular on industrial systems as it allowed them to make banks of sidings with the same capacity and the points take up as little space as possible. All my Y's have small variations as did the originals as it is assumed that over the years individual parts have been replaced and make do and mend was the norm. So unusually basic for me! :(

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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:40 am

I had some experience with floor polishes when I worked in a hardware store. We would regularly sell bottles to customers to coat their tiled floors with each year and the reason they came back was clear (sorry!), and that was their life span. If you look at tiles that have been so treated after a while the edges appear to 'lift'. True that the floors were being walked over, and our models aren't, but that resolved me never to use floor polish for anything on a model. I certainly didn't want it on a paint finish and find it lifting after a few years! I also never had any success in getting a truly gloss finish with Klear, it was always satin.

I have recently tried some WInsor & Newton Galeria Gloss acrylic varnish, as a result of seeing it mentioned in one of the magazines as an alternative to Klear, and this didn't give me a truly gloss finish either, unless I applied a number of coats.

I prefer to stick (sorry again!) to recognised glues for jobs such as ballast retention, but I also do not want solid ballast surrounding the track, so for this reason I will use what I did on the last layout, diluted latex, but in this case applied over the ballast once all is tested and OK. The track will also be loosely pinned and the ballast glue should seep a bit under the track to hold it all in place, so the pins can be trimmed and rendered invisible.

Philip

JFS
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby JFS » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:33 pm

Colin Parks wrote:Your description of the ballast falling off after having been fixed with Klear is a little concerning Howard!


Hi Colin,

I won't worry you further by saying that mine was fine for a while... There I didn't say it.

Manufacturers change their specs so fast it is hard to tell if we are or are not talking about the same stuff - mine was bought and used in 2009. As I recall, it pre-dated all the scares about the stuff being withdrawn from sale / reformulated... Equally, different kinds of ballast must react differently to the same fixative.
But your mention of glazing raises a question - would matt varnish make a decent (though perhaps pricey) ballast glue? People told me that Klear would neither colour the ballast nor dry to a gloss finish - well, mine did both! But it strikes me that matt varish might have a much better capilliary action as well as being designed not to impart colour.

Either way, I have my own method of ballasting so it is all academic to me :D

Best Wishes,

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:51 pm

I am currently gearing up for a bit of test track construction as well. I am building the track insitu onto a narrow ply shelf running the length of a wall using a cork underlay cut to the width of ballast for 9ft sleeper double track of 22' 6" (90mm). I have my templot print in hand.

My question is ... given that I want to lay the track directly on to the shelf I will need to stick the template down permanently. does anyone have any guidance on what glue to use to do this - the template doesn't want to get wet or it will stretch/cockle. My approach for construction will be (based on Howard's sub assembly methodology) to bond the sleepers in place and ballast prior to the final fixing of the track. However I am worried that either of these processes could cause the template to become unstuck and potentially cockle.
Tim Lee

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kelly
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby kelly » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:32 pm

Tim you could try mod podge on the template first, it should seal it. Experiment first though. I use it for making custom gift boxes for jewellery gifts I make for friends and family, great stuff. A variation on pva really, comes in many different formulations.
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RobM
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Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby RobM » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:38 pm

Tim.....talk to me at Scaleforum about sticking down templates which I print on card.
Rob

David Thorpe

Re: Track Construction for a Test Track

Postby David Thorpe » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:14 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:My question is ... given that I want to lay the track directly on to the shelf I will need to stick the template down permanently. does anyone have any guidance on what glue to use to do this - the template doesn't want to get wet or it will stretch/cockle.


I used 3M Spray Mount. It seems to have done the job.

DT


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