Construction of a Test Track

[Paul Townsend]

Terry/Phillip, I'm not concerned and appreciate your modesty ... still very much enjoying learning. But it is amazing how every time you feel understanding is dawning a whole other level pops up and blows a raspberry at you. Its all a bit like peeling an onion.

I have admired Minories ever since I sat down with Howard at Scaleforum as a very green newcomer ... but I actually had no idea what I was looking at I am just wondering how many more layers there are to peel

... And it is the same with every aspect I seem to look at - and there are a fair few I haven't even got to yet.

Still it keeps one humble and I don't expect to be able to master everything ... just hopefully avoid the more glaring cock ups

Don't forget many P4 models were successfully built before computers and fora became the norm.
We of little knowledge way back then coped with just the Society'(s) skinny magazines. Its a mystery how we ever got them to work!!

[Le Corbusier]

Don't forget many P4 models were successfully built before computers and fora became the norm.
We of little knowledge way back then coped with just the Society'(s) skinny magazines. Its a mystery how we ever got them to work!!

However Paul,

I hazard you were starting from a much higher base as far as knowledge/understanding of the prototype was concerned. ... just a hunch

[Tony Wilkins]

Don't forget many P4 models were successfully built before computers and fora became the norm.
We of little knowledge way back then coped with just the Society'(s) skinny magazines. Its a mystery how we ever got them to work!!

However Paul,

I hazard you were starting from a much higher base as far as knowledge/understanding of the prototype was concerned. ... just a hunch

Hi Tim.
That is some assumption.
Much of the information that we take for granted now just wasn't available back then.
As an example. I built a large quantity of P4 Airfix mineral wagons back in the 1970's and had to decide which batches had what variants so that they could be allocated numbers.
I used examples that I had seen in traffic and only discovered some years later (from data published in books and Magazines) that many had been rebuilt and so a fare number of mine were wrong. That meant going through them to correct the errors. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
When I was young the only question was whether to use Triang Tension lock or Hornby Buckeye type couplings.
Now there are at least 3 x 4mm track gauges, several different types of coupling, all incompatible, not to mention the many different control systems.
Progress has its price.
Regards
Tony.

[Martin Wynne]

Much of the information that we take for granted now just wasn't available back then.

Above all the item not available then was the digital camera.

It's sobering to remember that at the time every press of the shutter had to be paid for. Twice. Once for the film, and again for the processing or chemicals.

On the other hand what was largely still available was the traditional steam era infrastructure. Protected not by a 6ft fence, but a rusty cast-iron sign saying "Penalty for Trespassing on the Railway Twenty Shillings".

Martin.

[Le Corbusier]

I can see what you mean.

I suppose that the underpinning for my comment was more to do with knowledge of railways generally and perhaps erroneously assumed that this might have been driven by observation during youth as part of a culture and built upon over the years.

Many of the people I have met since returning to modelling were either part of this culture - when the railways were part of the general zeitgeist, or grew up in a family where their dad was.

Trains up until recently were always toys for me. I never actually saw steam and was never attracted by diesel/electric as a youngster - intercity was my youth and was rarely travelled upon, there were no local services serving where I wanted to go, so bike or car was king ... which all means I have no culture or background to start from. Simple things like never having watched shunting, never observed goods traffic when the railways were the common carriers, having no inkling about signalling or any of the infrastructure, not even knowing the difference between the up and down lines etc etc. Every endeavour therefore begins with learning a new lexicon. Many postings on here when I start a new aspect use language and acronyms which I spend a fair amount of time looking up just to understand what everyone is talking about. I am getting there, but new pastures are still continually opening up.

As I say ... good fun .... but still feel a numbskull half the time

[Tony Wilkins]

Hi Tim.
It seems I misunderstood the main gist of your meaning.
It is easy to forget that my generation was the last to witness the steam operated railway first hand although it disappeared locally just before I became a teenager. To some extent, at first the steam operated railway carried on for a while albeit with diesel haulage. It was a surprise to find that steam still operated on other regions for a few more years. My encounter with a Stanier 8F at Bedford st Johns about 1965 is one I shall long cherish. But that is another story.
Regards
Tony.

[JFS]

Well, we seem to have gone all philosophical for a while, and perhaps it was my use of signalling jargon which kicked it all off

But Tim, just to turn the "onion" inside out, it might be worth remembering that I build model railways because I am interested in (real) track and signals, and NOT that I learnt a lot about signalling in order to be able to build a layout!! Indeed I have built several "layouts" with no physical models at all - just follow the link in my signature to see what I mean.

From a layout building point of view I would just add-to / summarise what others have said with three points:-
1. You don't have to know everything about everything (none of us do) in order to build something.
2. Join a group - there will be always be people who can bring their knowledge to help fill your gaps
3. The longer you have been in the hobby, the more you find to learn about - SO DON'T DELAY STARTING!

It is not for me to give advice to anyone, but if pushed, I always say, don't start on your magnum opus - build something simple first, and finish it - you will learn more from that than from any amount of theory. Colin has gone that route (hence the title of this thread), even though he has built and exhibited an excellent layout previously!

Good luck!

[Tony Wilkins]

Hi Howard.
Sound advise.
In a sense, Green Street has been my test track, albeit a rather ambitious one. What was that about finishing it before starting my magnum opus?
Regards
Tony.

[Le Corbusier]

It is not for me to give advice to anyone, but if pushed, I always say, don't start on your magnum opus - build something simple first, and finish it - you will learn more from that than from any amount of theory.

Good luck!

Howard,

All advice (however reluctant ) much appreciated ... full responsibility for outcomes rests with the receiver

Just to reassure you I am building alongside all the endless questions ... and you aren't the first to advise starting simple - fingers crossed.

I will definitely join a club when time and commitments allow.

Thanks for the input.

Looking forward to Colin's next instalment.

Tim

[Colin Parks]

Well, A couple of days away from the Forum and there is a whole page of interesting stuff to read!

There is not much to report on the track building front, though I have stuck down around six hundred sleepers on the other two boards. The next board to have track laid will be the one with just plain track on it, though even that board is potentially problematic with the dreaded spectre of baseboard joints looming. Track alignment is obviously critical, so it could be fun.

[Paul Willis]

Re. lever frames, it has been on my mind and I understand that there is a redesign of the Society 5-lever frame unit in the offing, with an interlocking kit also to be offered. (Hope that is a. correct and b. not confidential!) So that is the way I will eventually go.

Colin,

Mostly correct, and not particularly confidential, although the development hasn't been announced yet.

The bit that is not quite right is that this is not a redesign of the well-established and regarded SHAG lever frame. That is staying exactly as it is, and available for all those who use it.

The new frame is a variant of it and will sit alongside it in the Society Stores. It's been designed by Howard Bolton, and has a couple of enhancements to the design of the existing frame. However the key element is that it is designed to interface with an etched mechanical interlocking system that Howard has also designed. I understand that the two frames are to the same dimensions, so it should be possible to mix-and-match, or replace the original frame, easily if needed.

Because there is extra metal required for the design of Howard's version, there will be an increase in price (no, not yet known until we have the invoice come through) but that is in part offset by the use of the etched handles rather than having to buy the additional turned steel ones. Depending on the workload of the etchers for this, we do hope to have the new lever frame available at Scalefour North (another good reason to come along, as though you needed one).

By good fortune, the operating rods which emerge on the side of my [central] baseboard are pitched at 10mm, which was a flying guess, but it is the same spacing as the Society's lever frame, making it easier for installation of a 20-lever frame in the future.

[/quote]

When I wrote my article on building the Society lever frame for MRJ 225, I produced a table of the key dimensions. If this pastes correctly, they are:

Depth: 47mm
Height: 130mm
Lever throws: 5mm (driven end)
75mm (handle end)
Lever spacing: 10mm

Cheers,
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman

[Colin Parks]

Thanks for the clarification re. the new lever frame Paul. The new design should suit my needs, though I would probably make my own handles from turned brass.

All the best,

Colin

[Philip Hall]

Tim, I’m going to be quite non pc here about joining a club. I was a member many years ago of a nice club, very friendly, but I found myself in a minority, using the standards I employed at the time ie P4. It wasn’t about the finesse of the modelling (or otherwise) but I still found myself a bit of a lone wolf at times. Several members were part of my usual operating team but they just liked having a nicely reliable railway to run! I was actually a member of the HO European group because the RTR stuff was so far in advance of the British models at the time.

I think that a local Scalefour Society (or EMGS, come to that) group would be more useful to you than a normal model railway club, although obviously if that club has a P4 or EM group, or has a distinct ‘finescale’ element that would be helpful.

Philip

[Le Corbusier]

Tim, I’m going to be quite non pc here about joining a club. I was a member many years ago of a nice club, very friendly, but I found myself in a minority, using the standards I employed at the time ie P4. It wasn’t about the finesse of the modelling (or otherwise) but I still found myself a bit of a lone wolf at times. Several members were part of my usual operating team but they just liked having a nicely reliable railway to run! I was actually a member of the HO European group because the RTR stuff was so far in advance of the British models at the time.

I think that a local Scalefour Society (or EMGS, come to that) group would be more useful to you than a normal model railway club, although obviously if that club has a P4 or EM group, or has a distinct ‘finescale’ element that would be helpful.

Philip

Philip,

I have to admit, I had assumed that was what Howard meant.

Living just a stone's throw from Bankside, SLAG would be a group I would like to visit ... particularly as I have (and still am) enjoying delving into the St Merryn book.

Unfortunately, with a family of 3 kids aged 15, 13 & 11, and my own business to run, my modelling time rarely starts much before 10.00pm. Ferrying kids around to clubs etc can be a pretty full time business. Throw family holidays into that mix alongside work & social commitments and modelling time is not predictable. So at the moment, groups/clubs and most exhibitions are something for the future.

Hence why I am such a fan of the forum.

[Philip Hall]

Tim,

SLAG are a great bunch and I visit from time to time. Indeed, Eddie Bourne is helping/has been Shanghai'd into helping with the new layout!

Philip

[junctionmad]

Terry/Phillip, I'm not concerned and appreciate your modesty ... still very much enjoying learning. But it is amazing how every time you feel understanding is dawning a whole other level pops up and blows a raspberry at you. Its all a bit like peeling an onion.

I have admired Minories ever since I sat down with Howard at Scaleforum as a very green newcomer ... but I actually had no idea what I was looking at I am just wondering how many more layers there are to peel

... And it is the same with every aspect I seem to look at - and there are a fair few I haven't even got to yet.

Still it keeps one humble and I don't expect to be able to master everything ... just hopefully avoid the more glaring cock ups

My perspective is not to fret to much on the things you dont know , the known unknowns. I think you have to accept that there will be failures along the way and theres no such thing as perfection. Also you can wait forever building knowledge and never actually do things.

The key is to start , dont worry about the end , Project management is for the day job.

[Le Corbusier]

Thanks Everyone for support and comments.

Lets bring this thread back onto topic. Happy for any further advice on https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=5148&p=58636#p58636 (my own thread)

[Colin Parks]

For the past week I have been cutting rails and threading chairs/Pandrol bases for all the plain track on the baseboards which fit on the ends of the board with most of the pointwork.

In a fit of enthusiasm today, the nickel silver 0.5mm rod droppers were soldered to the rails of the board pictured here in the foreground. The rails are located by means of the droppers being inserted in holes in the sleepers/baseboard. The tracks on this new board are all gently curved, which to me, looks more pleasing on the eye. The space between the left and centre tracks could one day have a platform installed.

IMG_8780 (2).JPG

This particular board has no turnouts and will have maybe just a couple of electro-magnet uncoupler switches, so, very simple. There is a little work to be done on the lateral alignment of the track at the rear (in the photo below), due to a slight error in the position of the rails already laid on the ballasted board. However, the vertical alignment of the rail surfaces is very good. There is one sleeper whose position falls across the basebaord joint on the centre track. It has had to be laid out of place and that will just have to be put down to experience. I could have made a better job of getting the ends of the two boards to join better, but there is nothing that cannot be hidden with enough ballast! The 1/4" jack sockets seen on the sides of the boards supply the power connection from any socket with just two wires in, as they say (this being DCC wiring). Power between the boards is connected via the steel pattern maker's dowel joints, although if this proves unreliable, small jumper cables could be used to link the boards.

IMG_8782.JPG

Having to drill so many 0.5mm holes in the rail foot (feet?!) for the droppers, the best thing was to speed up the process. As can be seen here, the drill is held in a pin vice. The drill tip broke off several times and was re-sharpened. It is not too difficult sharpen small drills with an oil stone and plenty of magnification.

IMG_8774.JPG

Not quite a Proxxon, but this old pillar drill (made in 1962 by my Dad) does the job!

IMG_8776.JPG

[RobM]

All looking good Colin.
Pretty robust rail cutters hanging on the wall.......
Rob

[Colin Parks]

All looking good Colin.
Pretty robust rail cutters hanging on the wall.......
Rob

Thanks Rob!

Those cutters are only for flat-bottom rail...

[Serjt-Dave]

Hi Colin. Yes looking very tidy indeed. I like the idea of having a rod to attach the dropper wire to rather than attaching the dropper wire directly to the rail.

I thought those cutter were for removing etched parts from a DJH kit.

Dave

[Colin Parks]

Hi Colin. Yes looking very tidy indeed. I like the idea of having a rod to attach the dropper wire to rather than attaching the dropper wire directly to the rail.

I thought those cutter were for removing etched parts from a DJH kit.

Dave

Hi Dave,

The method I have used is a bit laborious, but perfectly invisible, with all droppers being positioned to pass down through holes on sleepers or timbers. There are at least two droppers per section of rail or about every 200 mm on longer rails.

Nickel silver rod has been settled on for the droppers, after first trying 0.5 mm brass. The brass rod was just too soft to withstand the rigours of being handled prior to fixing the rails, and along with a number of bent droppers, on close inspection there were several dry joints which had at first looked sound. All the brass droppers were replaced nickel silver ones. Nickel silver is easy to solder and I pre-tinned the ends of the droppers to facilitate the soldering of the wiring sub-baseboard. It proved best to have 5mm of the dropper rod protruding through baseboard, which is enough to permit up to three 3 amp wires to be soldered on.

All the best,

Colin

[Serjt-Dave]

Thanks Colin, that's good to know. On my test track I'd had just soldered a wire {a solid core wire not multi core} dropper to the rail. But I found that sometimes the wire would break or the joint would fail. Your idea seems worth trying out. I was also thinking about perhaps using a very fine long threaded bolt not only to attach a wire to but also give stability and strength to at the baseboard joint.

Dave

[Phil O]

I use brass lace making pins for droppers, I drill a 3.5mm hole through the sleeper/timber and the baseboard and tap the pin in until there's around 3 or 4mm left proud and then solder the rail to it and then finish by tapping the head of the rail until the plastic chairs are sitting flat. A few cosmetic chairs to finish. I then snip the pointy bit off with around 10mm left sticking through the baseboard, to solder the 'lectric string too. I also use a couple of pins in each rail end at baseboard joints. Touch wood, I have not had any problems, so far.

Phil.

[Colin Parks]

Hi Phil and Dave,

Both your ideas seem like reasonable solutions and especially having some reinforcement of the track at baseboard joints sounds like a good idea (which I did not really consider).

The method that I have been using allows for the expansion/contraction of the rails over a range of temperatures, achieved by having the droppers a loose fit in the holes through the sleepers/timbers baseboard. These holes are 1.7 mm dia., allowing plenty of clearance for movement of the rails, yet still concealed by the rail fixings. For my peace of mind, the joint between dropper and rail does not rely on solder alone, hence the drilling of holes in the rail foot.

Added to the above, I always have to be bear in mind that the workshop environment where my test track construction is being carried out, has a temperature range of about 5-15C, so expansion will inevitably occur if we have any sort of summer!

All the best,

Colin