Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:19 pm

Hi All,

Some of you may have seen this over on RMWeb, where it has been for a year or so. When initially deciding which forum to put it on, I decided on that one as it has more none P4 modellers who may see it and see that P4 is possible for mere mortals. Since making the decision it has also been useful is getting the interest of several people with local knowledge and history.

However, being involved with the BS4 and Glevum society groups I have also had a lot of useful info from within the society (and also members who have seen it in the other place), and so I have decided to share it here too. I know there are quite a few people who are on this forum but not that one, and also aware that it is relatively easy to miss things over there with the amount of traffic.

My long term my plans are for Embsay (wharfedale) in 1958 (lots of interesting through traffic, including Settle and Carlisle bound diversions) alongside the output of a stone quarry. However that plan needs more room than I have available, so a small layout plan was devised based on Ilkley shed. The fact that this means I will need to master driving a turntable, and constructing 3 flavours of pit, as well as a shed - none of which will be of direct use for Embsay, is all part of the fun.

So first off was to create the plan in Templot. To do the shed properly would need over 10' in length, and I have compressed it into 6' x 18" which I think will still be able to capture the feeling of the original.

templot Ilkley.png


Ilkley 2.jpg
Ilkley 2.jpg (211.74 KiB) Viewed 9340 times


I have used Grainge & Hodder baseboards (2 off 3' x 18") and constructed frames around these which keep the dust off

Ilkley 3.jpg
Ilkley 3.jpg (152.34 KiB) Viewed 9340 times


4 of the 5 points are motorised using Conrad servo type motors, and home made tiebars which are mounted under the baseboard. The 5th point I am going to experiment with the Morgan design etch (from the S4 stores). My home made ones are working fine, but I am interested to see whether the etch makes life easier for setting up or has any other benefits either during construction or which come to light after some use.

Ilkley 4.jpg


Ilkley 5.jpg


Ilkley 6.jpg


Here is an overall view of the layout. The turntable (as per the prototype) is a Cowans Sheldon 50'. On the model this is from a London Road Models kit, with the vac formed well. I know the well walls are stone, and am currently assuming the base to be ballast/stone chip. I have not got a photo of this bit, but have never seen a photo of a stone well with a concentric circle base as done on brick built wells. If it comes to light later on that this is wrong, I'll block the drains and flood it :idea: :|

Ilkley 7.jpg


I am using a cassette for the fiddleyard, which so far works well (and now also has a DPDT switch so that it can be used as a dedicated DCC programming track as required).

Ilkley 8.jpg


All was going well (if slowly...) until I discovered that drawings for the shed still exist, housed in the Midland Railway Study Centre in Derby Silk Mill. So I went for a visit there in August and have all the info I need to build a scale (if shortened) shed. However, the tracks feeding it are closer together than I had assumed in the planning stage so (one of) my current conundrum(s) is whether to stretch the width of the shed I build to match my track, or slew the track across to fit in the shed (bearing in mind that there is a pit outside the shed to negotiate). The point switch blades, and common crossing, are in place and would take quite a redesign to line up properly. This is only a test layout after all, apparently...

Ilkley 9.jpg


I recently lost my housemates/tenants (to their own places), so now have the box room available for modelling. Having spent a while redecorating it I have just about moved in there (no idea why I painted the skirting boards...), and hope that this will kick off some progress.

Ilkley 10.jpg


The shed windows are apparently 5' x 10', which is in between the two sizes of Midland Engine shed windows available from Bill Bedford. I've taken this as a good excuse to remind myself how to use 2D CAD, and have designed an etch for them.

Ilkley Window CAD 1.png
Ilkley Window CAD 1.png (3.03 KiB) Viewed 9340 times


So that's about the state of current progress. Currently I have a couple of jobs to do to finish an Easi-chas 3F and CSB'd LRM Stanier/Lemon 2P 0-4-4T but in amongst clearing those from the workbench am aiming to get back on with the layout.

Alongside (and duplicated) with my reference books, there are some good photos of Ilkley near the top (and Embsay further down!) of: http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page94.htmk.

User avatar
Mark Tatlow
Posts: 766
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:54 pm

Hi Pete,

Nice to see your work over here too!

How have you found the Conrad turnout operators? They look rather flimsy to me or am I being overly suspicous?

Also, how do you propose to operate the turntable. I have issues with my chosen method and took the decision at Scaleforum to ditch the plan for an alternative - which will be the Brassmasters one with an additional locking device. More anon when I get to build the thing!
Mark Tatlow

User avatar
steve howe
Posts: 613
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:16 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby steve howe » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:27 pm

[quote="Mark Tatlow"]Hi Pete,
How have you found the Conrad turnout operators? They look rather flimsy to me or am I being overly suspicous?
quote]

I'd also be interested to know your findings on the Conrad Pete, I've just fitted five to my current project and found them easy to fit and wire, with the advantage of limit switches allowing directional switches to be used on the panel, showing the route direction which centre-off switches do not. I found mine to be a bit fast on the prescribed 16v AC and wonder if they might benefit from the current being wound back?

Steve

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:14 pm

Hi Mark, Steve,

Yes so far so good - I have them running from 16VAC too (half wave rectified, as it is fed through a diode as per viewtopic.php?t=3593) and have no current limiting. I think the speed of operation is fine - slow action point motors to me look wrong, for mechanically operated points which did clunk across. The torque seems fine, ie it isnt so high that it will break anything over time as solenoid motors might.

I am happy with the throw of the motor, but as I say I'm going to be doing a bit more experimenting with the final drive to the switch blades. I know what you mean by the 'look' Mark, but I think in use they seem reasonably robust. I can't say they've had strenuous use yet though!

Watch this space re the turntable! I think I prefer the idea of a stepper motor drive as this should be repeatable and accurate without needing alignment sensors - not that those would add too much to the design as there is only 1 pair of exit roads (so 2 stopping locations). I had an interesting chat with Paul Townsend at S4um about chain or toothed belt drives which could be used on the output of said stepper motor. This option would drive the central shaft from below the well.

The other option is a motor within the turntable structure, and that could drive one of the micro motors with included gearbox which have been available from ebay of late (presumably from a scanner or 3D printer mechanism).

Track-wise I have a Lenz return loop module to use. A manual DPDT switch would work, but I'd like to future proof it in case DCC sound (or other functionality) improves to a level I want to use it.

I don't think I'm aware of the Brassmasters one though, and google is being decidedly unhelpful with the concept - so I'm intrigued to know what this consists of...

Cheers,
Pete

User avatar
Jol Wilkinson
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:28 pm

I think Mark may have meant the LRM drive mechanism.

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:23 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:I think Mark may have meant the LRM drive mechanism.


Ah, yes that makes sense Jol.

I like the fact it is designed to work with the turntable well, so taking away the element of having to do precision engineering by hand - but I'd quite like an indexing system so am assessing other options before using that as the fallback option!

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:50 am

I like the look of the gearbox on this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-5V-12V-2-P ... 2457634498

But I'm not convinced by the 18degree stepper motor driving it. 0.12 degree steps (on a 50' turntable with a circumference of 628.31mm) results in a step size of 0.2mm. It claims to have lots of torque, but their definition of that may be different to mine...

Or there is this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191740674884? ... EBIDX%3AIT
5.6 degrees with 1/64 gearing which results in 0.087 degrees which is 0.15mm steps.

This could be driven by a 1:2 bevel gear though, which would further reduce the step size and turn the motor to a horizontal mount.

I havent yet been able to find suitable belt drives for alternative options...

Alan Turner
Posts: 571
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby Alan Turner » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:42 pm

The second choice is a uni-polar motor and more easily controlled than the bi-polar motor of the first choice.

regards

Alan

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:50 am

Thats true Alan, the second option also aided by having the driver board included with it.

Bipolar motors should have more torque - on a like for like comparison if not between the two I'm looking at. As with a lot of these Chinese imports with minimalist datasheets, for a couple of quid I think it will be a case of suck it and see. I've had an Arduino board lying around for a while now so sounds like this is a good excuse to dust it off.

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:03 am

There are other listings for the same thing which do at least give a torque, though my knowledge falls down at working out how much is needed to spin a turntable!

No-load Pull in Frequency: >600Hz
No-load Pull out Frequency: >1000Hz
Pull in Torque: >34.3mN.m(120Hz)
Detent Torque: >34.3mN.m

Package Included:
1 x Drive Module Board ULN2003
1 x Stepper motor 28BYJ-48

User avatar
Mark Tatlow
Posts: 766
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:16 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:I think Mark may have meant the LRM drive mechanism.


Oh bother - I did!!

Sorry for the confusion!
Mark Tatlow

User avatar
Mark Tatlow
Posts: 766
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:23 pm

The conclusion I have come to with regard to turntable drives is that you need to be mindful of the slack that is inherent in even the best gear mechanism. It may only amount to half a degree of rotation but this is more than enough to create problems with OO wheels, let alone P4 ones.

I did find that the problem was only apparent if the turntable was to be run both ways, so the slack was exposed when the motor runs the otherway. I thought I could get away with it on my turntable due to it only having one line in, so I never needed to run the turntable in an alternative direction.

There seem to me to be two solutions to this;

- either run the motor on a large rim like the Metalsmiths solution http://www.metalsmith.co.uk/Turntable_m ... dexing.htm
- or to incorporate an alignment plunger. I did once see the latter in use a long time ago (sorry, can't remember what the name of the layout is now, it was 35 years ago!) and it did work very well.

I am going to have a bash at the second option and will report back on this forum!
Mark Tatlow

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:07 pm

Nicely timed prior to tonights BS4 group Christmas curry, I have made some turntable progress!

The instructions are rather vague in places, and specific in others. This is theoretically because of the wide variety of configurations depending on the prototype location - however some of the specific bits in the instructions are wrong for mine, and some of the vague bits make it difficult to understand what it intended. However, with the instructions and the prototype photos to hand (both those of Ilkley, and a few of the Garsdale one now at Keighley) I have pieced together what the intentions are, and what my deviations needed to be.


The instructions suggest the locking bar mechanisms should be on the outside of the deck, while Ilkleys went through it, so I needed to put in a slot. The standard build is also aimed at having 6 handrail uprights, while Ilkley had 7. I also had to create a guide for the locking mechanism which will sit on top of the deck. I have so far left the locking bar handles so they are free to move. I don't think it will be feasible to mechanise these, but I'll keep the concept in mind...

The plan is to complete the planking on the deck today, so it can fully cure in time for some more work tomorrow if time allows.

20161210_135214.jpg


20161210_135200.jpg


I havent yet made any progress with how to drive the turntable, though my aim is to get it rolling nicely before Christmas, and I should be able to find time to play with the stepper motor when I'm not at home for a few days over the festivities. Anything to avoid the final of baking on ice or whatever is on this year...

A couple more photos don't want to add just now, I'll add those later...

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:04 pm

Firstly, the 3 photos which didnt want to upload yesterday have no done so fine...

20161210_135234.jpg


20161210_135226.jpg


20161210_103704.jpg


I have now finished the main deck planking, and one end of the fill in next to the locking lever. The wheel carriers have been reassembled in position, and placed in the well. This shows that (with code 55 flat bottom rail on the turntable) the height difference is 1.3mm, with the turntable lower - which is a nice little shimming job, in the right direction.

The well is currently the London Road former, which is vac formed. This is a good shape, and allows the (in my case) stone cladding to be added, but it is flimsy. The options are either to build a support structure to support this, or go for a full wooden replacement. There are members in the BS4 group who know more about wood turning than I do, so these will be discussed in more depth on Tuesday.

20161211_144429.jpg


So other than rails, handrails, and other deck details (built but not yet fitted) that is the turntable itself complete - but I won't be adding those bits until I've finalised my well.

Next job today is making a start on an ash pit - pretty much as Robin did the ones for Barrow Road.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/116/entry-5141-bristol-barrow-road-ash-disposal-pits-update/

I just need to work out the difference in width between the top of the channel and the bottom, and can then crack on. Unfortunately the drawings in the LMS Journal preview edition are inspection pits not ash pits - but I'm sure I've seen a drawing somewhere so will go to hunt it down!

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:15 pm

Midland Record no. 7 might help, but is one of those not yet in my collection - would some kind soul be able to tell me if it has the critical dimensiond please?

Excuse the crude drawing, but it is effectively the top channel section for which I am after dimension:

pit girder.png
pit girder.png (11.84 KiB) Viewed 8489 times


The rail, in chairs, sits on the top of the girder, and that sits on top of the brick pit wall. It is the difference between A and B that I am trying to determine.

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Forum Team
Posts: 3370
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:40 pm

I have Midland Record 7 but I'm not sure that it contains what you are looking for.
The drawing in MR7 is for an Ash Pit, prototype at Westhouses. There is nothing in it about turntables.
The Ash Pit has no girders, the chairs are on the top of the pit wall coping, which is either concrete or stone blocks (I think concrete) 18" wide and 14" deep with the inside top corners chamfered off about 2". The inside width of the pit is 3'6".
The lower structure of the Pit is concrete but its lined inside below the coping with blue brick, approx 4 courses visible above the floor.
Hope this helps,
Regards
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

ken kirk
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:12 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby ken kirk » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:48 pm

Hello Pete,
Nice to see a MR man doing good things.
Mr Grosvenor has just pipped me to the post with a reply, so here's and drawing of the MR ashpit from Westhouses (formally Blackwell) dated August 1890.
MR PIT WESTHOUSES (BLACKWELL).jpeg

Hope this may be of some use,
Ken

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Forum Team
Posts: 3370
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:58 pm

Thanks Ken, my scanner is off line at present, hence all the description.
Regards

PS. No s in grovenor which is an anagram of my surname as used by my grandfather for the name of his house.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:14 pm

Thanks Keith & Ken,

Indeed that isnt quite what I'm looking for - but thanks for the info to stop me going on a wild goose chase for it! It will be useful for another pit I need to build.

For a small shed, Ilkley had 5 pits, of 3 different types!

2 inside the shed, brick built and topped, with flat bottom rail, as:

Image

3 outside the shed - as looking from the turntable towards the shed entrance the right hand one was of the ash disposal type I am currently looking for dimensions of - partially visible on the right of this photo:

Image

And much more clearly visible in the bottom left of this photo:
Image

The left hand road, and the furthest most of the two tracks which went round the coaling stage on the left hand side of the shed, both had slab topped pits with bullhead rail:

Image

(images linked from David Hey's invaluble site, and the Embsay and Bolton abbey railway historic site)

I have asked Robin what dimensions he used so should get a way forward.

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:53 pm

My etched windows have arrived:

20161214_192310.jpg


The concept is for a window to have an inner and an outer, and the U shaped bit sits between them at the bottom. Another U shaped bit but with the half etched lines cut will sit at the top (ie just the top corners) so that glazing can slide in from the top. If this isnt satisfactory then a full U could be used at the top too, but then it would all have to be glued rather than soldered.

The bars across the middle are to support the opening window section which is easiest to add in the closed position. Once fixed in place the support bars will be removed. I have an idea of how to make them open, and have etched a couple of spares.

I aim to assemble one tonight or tomorrow so watch this space!

User avatar
Paul Townsend
Posts: 848
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:58 am

PeteT wrote:Or there is this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191740674884? ... EBIDX%3AIT
5.6 degrees with 1/64 gearing which results in 0.087 degrees which is 0.15mm steps.

This could be driven by a 1:2 bevel gear though, which would further reduce the step size and turn the motor to a horizontal mount.

I havent yet been able to find suitable belt drives for alternative options...


I have only just found this thread ( distracted by builders) so catching up.....

Stepper motor with or without toothed belt drive gives holding torque to maintain registration. Adding a bevel gear will introduce backlash and lose accurate registration.
Toothed belts and pulleys in many sizes are cheap on Ebay

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:30 pm

Thanks Paul - I had come to the conclusion that that would be the best solution, but my ebay search terms on the matter obviously leave a lot to be desired... all I seem to get is an array of cambelt kits! Could you point me in the direction of something please?

I did get hold of some plastic gears etc for very little outlay a few weeks ago, but while it has toothed gears and flat runners, the pulleys and belts are only smooth, so that lot is in the drawer for potential future use!

User avatar
Paul Townsend
Posts: 848
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:44 am

PeteT wrote:Thanks Paul - I had come to the conclusion that that would be the best solution, but my ebay search terms on the matter obviously leave a lot to be desired... all I seem to get is an array of cambelt kits! Could you point me in the direction of something please?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw= ... y&_sacat=0

is result from search on 4mm timing pulley

Search on 4mm or 6mm timing belt is also productive with only a few being car specific

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:59 am

Excellent, thanks Paul!

User avatar
PeteT
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: Ilkley Engine Shed, West Yorkshire late 1950s

Postby PeteT » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:16 pm

I now have the ash pit in situe. It needs steps and a drain cover, but is otherwise all there. I have the drainage plan so have double checked my drain cover will be on the correct side. I'm not sure which type was in use here, but will go for a metal plate with holes as per the Midland Record ash pit drawing. The packing height required was an easy to find sleeper:

20170224_211442.jpg


20170226_142251.jpg


20170226_142257.jpg


20170226_153430.jpg


20170226_153440.jpg


20170226_153415.jpg


Next up will be continuing that road into the shed, which was flat bottom rail. Conveniently the code 55 FB to code 75 bullhead in a chair is a nice round amount:

20170224_213027.jpg


I expect it is just the lighting, but the two shed roads don't look the same to me. The right hand road in the photo below is laid on bricks/blocks on their side, while the left hand road looks smoother.

Image

I will also need to work out how to make the frame solid. On the above pit, the main structure is all brass and nicely solid - but has the chairs to isolate the rails. I am thinking of making a similar brass sub frame and cladding it in plasticard, with openings in the frame for power feeds to pass through.


Return to “Layouts and Operations”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests