Eversley Green - P4 BR (S) layout

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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kelly
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Eversley Green - P4 BR (S) layout

Postby kelly » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:25 pm

Having gotten a plan in place (well mostly, still tweaking and thinking on it a bit) for the Woolwich layout, I have turned my attention to producing a small (3x2 probably) layout that I can use for a few learning exercises before using them on the main Woolwich layout.

It will feature the following:

* P4
* DCC
* MERG DCC/CBUS
* Probably 3ftx2ft or 3ftx1ft. Might even end up 2x 3ftx1ft boards.
* Tim Horn laser cut baseboards
* 1959 Southern Region initially South Western Division but with scope to relocate on another division with change of buildings etc as necessary.

I have no set plan in mind atm, but I'm thinking something small and simple, maybe industrial in nature, perhaps a docks. Natalie is currently researching possible plans, but I'll listen to suggestions if people wish to give them here.

The primary aim is to use it to figure out getting the MERG CBUS/DCC working on a layout and learning to build P4 trackwork in a smaller, less daunting layout plan than the current Woolwich one offers (which is currently looking at 15ftx2ft scenic, but curved boards round to a traverser to run 2,4,6, 8 or 10 car trains depending on how many modules are set up).

A small industrial setting or docks appeals for using small diesels or tank locos (I don't really mind if it is steam or modern image to some extent).

I think doing this feels a sensible first step in getting the Woolwich layout built. Thoughts?
Last edited by kelly on Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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David Knight
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby David Knight » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:57 pm

Hi Kelly,

A good starting point might be found in the Standard Gauge Workbench threads viewforum.php?f=101 as each one will fit in a restricted area and with a bit of imagination can be 'grown' as space and time permit. Small is beautiful especially when you are starting off as nothing is more encouraging than getting that first bit of 'live track' working.

Have fun!

Cheers,

David

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kelly
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:07 pm

David Knight wrote:Hi Kelly,

A good starting point might be found in the Standard Gauge Workbench threads viewforum.php?f=101 as each one will fit in a restricted area and with a bit of imagination can be 'grown' as space and time permit. Small is beautiful especially when you are starting off as nothing is more encouraging than getting that first bit of 'live track' working.

Have fun!

Cheers,

David


David, thanks, I'd forgotten about the standard gauge workbench section.

And, yes you're right, having a bit of working track will be a good thing to have.
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jim s-w
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby jim s-w » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:35 pm

It's probably a bit small for a docks (even small ships are still pretty big) but keeping with the theme a canal basin might suit as they are usually a bit more cramped. Bromley basin on the kingswinford branch might give you some inspiration if you can find anything. (There's a few pictures on the Birmingham railways remembered Facebook group.

Cheers

Jim

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kelly
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:15 pm

jim s-w wrote:It's probably a bit small for a docks (even small ships are still pretty big) but keeping with the theme a canal basin might suit as they are usually a bit more cramped. Bromley basin on the kingswinford branch might give you some inspiration if you can find anything. (There's a few pictures on the Birmingham railways remembered Facebook group.

Cheers

Jim


Thanks. I'll have a google and see what it looks like. Natalie (whom I'm working on plans with) has said she has a few ideas on an inglenook variety, with either push/pull or 2 car DEMU/EMU set in the south somewhere.
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kelly
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:13 pm

So some updates have occurred in regards to this.

Originally it was envisioned it'd fit in the 4'8.5" of the standard gauge workshop, but working on various plan options and then deciding what would be preferable, it quickly became clear that that would be insufficient for what we'd like to run on it (2 car DEMU/DMU/EMUs, push-pull sets etc). So it has grown a bit.

The first plans we came up with was thus:
p4-small_layout.png
p4-small_layout-sketchpad.png


Inspiration for the plan came from reading a recent BRM article on Drewry Lane, the plan looked like it would work. It was however decided that it didn't quite work, and it also didn't factor in storage. This was around 6ftx1ft + storage of around 2ft.

Then after a bit of thinking, it changed a bit to this:

sketchboard_2016_09_14_2135_03.png
high_road_2016_09_14_2140_06.gif


This gives better room to feature a 2 car EMU/DEMU/DMU or a pushpull set, as well as the freight options. It grew to around 8ftx1'6" including hidden storage as part of it, hidden behind a partition, with a sector plate or cassettes for the storage, giving 2ft of storage room. Although if pushpull is to be used, then more than 2ft would be needed, which would make cassettes more preferable as a small extension to the area would be easier to accomodate for a longer cassette than changing the sector plate.


Some tweaking is still needed, and quite how the oil depot and other parts on the plan will turn out is undecided yet. We've not also finalised where in the country it will actually be 'based', though most definitely somewhere in the former SR/BR(S) areas.

So with that, it will likely be set around mid-late 60s, and likely feature BR green/blue and the last remnants of steam, to give a bit of extra interest.

At scaleforum I intend to pick up some boards from Tim Horn, hopefully he'll have some 3ftx1'6" boards with him (I've contacted him ahead of the show, but it depends on what he has stock wise) and will also pick up some more 3ftx2ft boards for the Woolwich layout.
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:11 pm

Two 3ftx1ft6" boards were acquired from Tim Horn at Scaleforum. So the project has a base.

Some decisions were made in relation to it. Still no name though!

  • MERG DCC & CBUS
  • Mid 1960s - BR green/blue changeover period
  • Western section rather than Eastern
  • 3rd rail obviously

At some point over the next few days hopefully time will be found (Friday to Sunday is out however, due to being at Gaydon, helping operate a layout there) to dig the boards out and lay some templates and track to visualise it other than just in Templot (can't really print the Templot templates out at present due to a printer issue, but hopefully will be able to use other half's laser printer when the plans are finalised.

Natalie (whom I work on projects with and go to most shows with), has come up with a suggested area to 'base' it on. I say 'base' as it is not going to be an exact layout as a real area for a number of reasons, but the feel of the area will be the important part I feel. That area is Bordon, which was connected to the Longmoor Military Railway. Obviously the military railway won't be modelled, but military traffic may well feature to some extent being 'off scene' perhaps. The other change will be that it will have 3rd rail, assuming it got electrified at some point during the SR's existance, allowing the use of the recently acquired a blue 2HAL, and possibly the blue 2EPB I have. and a 2HAP (MJT sides acquired at Scaleforum, which will likely be used with some Replica sides). A green 2BIL will probably be added at some point, and probably a blue one too, and a blue 2HAL as well.

Originally I was thinking of using a sector plate, as the 2ft scenic front to the storage area precludes a traverser from being practical. But on having a chat with Chris Mitton at Scaleforum, it was point out a problem I'd overlooked with this. So cassettes will be used I think.
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QuentinD
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby QuentinD » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:52 am

Hi Kelly,

That looks like a great little project you have there! And you're right, I think it's better off being a little larger. Might I make one suggestion however? Your catch/trap point doesn't look like it'll keep stock clear of the platform road.

Quentin

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kelly
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:44 am

QuentinD wrote:Hi Kelly,

That looks like a great little project you have there! And you're right, I think it's better off being a little larger. Might I make one suggestion however? Your catch/trap point doesn't look like it'll keep stock clear of the platform road.

Quentin


Thanks Quentin,

Originally it was planned for it to be within the 4ft8.5" of the SGW, but wanting 2 car units added a bit of size creep. Then liked an idea I saw of the storage also being part scenic, hence the full length of 8ft.

The catch/trap hasn't been added properly, and is really just indicative that one would be needed there. When the plan is settled on fully, it will be looked into in more detail. But atm we need to get the boards out with some templates and visualise it and see if we like it when we start looking at it like that.
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steve howe
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby steve howe » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:58 pm

kelly wrote:At some point over the next few days hopefully time will be found (Friday to Sunday is out however, due to being at Gaydon, helping operate a layout there) .


Hi Kelly,

We'll be at Gaydon with our Club layout - Gweek North Quay 0-16.5, don't look too closely at our baseboards though!

Steve
(50% of the Cornwall Area Group)

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kelly
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:42 pm

steve howe wrote:
kelly wrote:At some point over the next few days hopefully time will be found (Friday to Sunday is out however, due to being at Gaydon, helping operate a layout there) .


Hi Kelly,

We'll be at Gaydon with our Club layout - Gweek North Quay 0-16.5, don't look too closely at our baseboards though!

Steve
(50% of the Cornwall Area Group)


Natalie and myself will be helping operate Maxwell Colliery there. Should be a good show, last time I went was a couple of years ago doing the DEMU stand there.
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:20 pm

Not really updated this thread for a while, so some updates...

Due to the SSD on my desktop dying randomly on me, I have lost the previous templot files for this plan. However, we've revised the plan a bit, so they'd not bear much relation to the templot files anyhow.

The revised plan is based on Shepperton. The loose plan is that it will be suitable (with subtituted buildings/features) to represent Western, Central and Eastern sections of the SR/BR(S) in the mid-1960s. Also this should allow the era to move forward (within reason). Elements of the New Romney branch are being researched for this reason.

post-11572-0-76813100-1488330988.png
Rough inkscape drawing
post-11572-0-76813100-1488330988.png (10.21 KiB) Viewed 5715 times


I've drawn a rough diagram in inkscape.

At the top is the oil terminal, the goods yard facilities being on the bottom left.



The right curves round to go under a bridge or short tunnel, going into storage sidings, forming the layout as an L rather than the previous --- type arrangement.



Provision has been made for the layout to be expanded to the left at a later date, with the track intending to extend to the board edge, but with a buffer stop just past the platform.

The decisions then are twofold:

    Whether oil terminal changes position, or entire side of the layout (possibly moving to the bottom right hand corner)
    Whether there is room enough for the number of sidings.
    Whether to order a 3ftx2ft board for the end to take the track around to an L shape for connection of fiddle yard (probably traverser).
    Orignal plan was for a 2ftx2ft board with fiddle yard hidden behind part of a scenicbreak. This would have left only 2ft for train length, L shape giving scope for upto 4car units and loco + 3 carriages
    3ftx2ft boards I currently already have 5 of (for the Woolwich layout) so to speed things up I can nab one of them.
    How much curvature is possible and still within tolerances to get the track around to form the L.

Hopefully now I've picked up some more C&L P4 flexible track I should be able to get the boards out and lay the plan out (with EMGS P4 track templates for now) and see what works and doesn't. Suspect the oil terminal and sidings will get moved around when we do this (hopefully this week after I've recovered from the Leamington show!).

The aim will be to pick up final bits I might need (gauges, lever frame, etc) from Scalefour North.
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Julian Roberts
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:16 pm

Hi Kelly That curve you've introduced looks like it might be pretty sharp. I don't quite know why people's default track option is C&L. The same firm's Exactoscale Fast Track is pretty much the same price once you've got some rail but is more likely to retain its Exact (haha - geddit?!) accuracy to gauge as the sleepers are thicker so the whole thing is stronger. Even more significant in this case it comes in a +0.2mm version for curves meaning running is all the more likely to be good on curves too. The recent MRJ article on Canada Water mentioned the realism of phosphor bronze rail for less busy track, this also may be an option when buying rail separately.
Sorry if this post is like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted....

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kelly
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:43 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:Hi Kelly That curve you've introduced looks like it might be pretty sharp. I don't quite know why people's default track option is C&L. The same firm's Exactoscale Fast Track is pretty much the same price once you've got some rail but is more likely to retain its Exact (haha - geddit?!) accuracy to gauge as the sleepers are thicker so the whole thing is stronger. Even more significant in this case it comes in a +0.2mm version for curves meaning running is all the more likely to be good on curves too. The recent MRJ article on Canada Water mentioned the realism of phosphor bronze rail for less busy track, this also may be an option when buying rail separately.
Sorry if this post is like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted....


It is of course, not to scale. The length of the boards is 8ft by 1ft 6", with the end board being 2ftx3ft. So the curve will be played around with to some extent to see what works.

C&L just happened to be what I already had to some extent, I'm looking at Timber Tracks for some parts to reflect the need for 3rd rail. But that is the point of this small layout to figure out all these things, before laying track on the other bigger layout.

It is as you say a bit after the horse has bolted as I've already bought the C&L track. But I do have some of the exacto track from the starter pack, so I'll probably get more perhaps at Scalefour north and figure out a use for the C&L track.
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:29 am

kelly wrote:I'm looking at Timber Tracks for some parts to reflect the need for 3rd rail.


Something else to consider is if the running rails will be flat bottom or bullhead. We used flat bottom rail on Elcot Road for the electrified track since the layout is set in August 1988 and used Colin Craig rail fixings. Colin does not do the BR3 type fixings which are correct for electrified track but Masokits do. Other electrified track has PAN 11 type fixings. Exactoscale bull head track was used in the sidings. Some of the turnouts are Colin' s flat bottom rail kits and some of the "main line" track has concrete sleepers. The Society's conductor rail and supports were used for the third rail since usually it is of a different weight to running rails. There is lots of useful information about third rail installations on the CLAG web site.

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kelly
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:49 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:
kelly wrote:I'm looking at Timber Tracks for some parts to reflect the need for 3rd rail.


Something else to consider is if the running rails will be flat bottom or bullhead. We used flat bottom rail on Elcot Road for the electrified track since the layout is set in August 1988 and used Colin Craig rail fixings. Colin does not do the BR3 type fixings which are correct for electrified track but Masokits do. Other electrified track has PAN 11 type fixings. Exactoscale bull head track was used in the sidings. Some of the turnouts are Colin' s flat bottom rail kits and some of the "main line" track has concrete sleepers. The Society's conductor rail and supports were used for the third rail since usually it is of a different weight to running rails. There is lots of useful information about third rail installations on the CLAG web site.

Terry Bendall


The era is going to be the 1960s, at least initially. The 'multi-era' allowance will present some compromise in that regard, but the main running time will be the early to mid 1960s, so last dregs of steam, and the transition from BR green to BR blue.

Without double checking I can't recall if it'd be wood or concrete for back then, I suspect the former? (my memory is terrible I'm afraid!). It is Natalie who'll know the correct type of track I'll need really.

Only the line(s) into the platform will be electrified, the sidings unelectrified. The reason for the single platform being Sheperton had a platform both sides, but only one was used, so we're just modelling the one.

I'll take another look at what track to use at a later date, atm for planning the c&l will suffice and I'll find a use for it somewhere.
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:00 pm

Spent a little bit of time with Natalie playing with lengths of track, boards and EMGS P4 templates.

2017-03-09 17.30.42 rotated and cropped.jpg
Working out the curves to form the L shape on a 3ftx2ft board. The curves might fit. I will likely look to order another board from Tim Horn so as the dowels line up. (roughly)

2017-03-09 17.29.59 rotated and cropped.jpg
Working out the curves to form the L shape on a 3ftx2ft board. The curves might fit. I will likely look to order another board from Tim Horn so as the dowels line up. (roughly)

Still some work to do on it, but a better idea of how it might work is now in our heads.

2017-03-09 17.40.52 rotated.jpg
Trying to get the run round figured out with a 73 used to gauge lengths.
2017-03-09 18.07.46 (Medium) rotated.jpg
Roughly overlaying of templates to see how a inside single slip would work in place of the combinations of A and B points.
2017-03-09 18.07.42 (Medium)rotated.jpg
With a single slip and access to the parcels platform being looked at.
2017-03-09 18.07.03 (Medium) rotated.jpg
I originally wanted to avoid having to build a slip until I'd gotten confident building points, but for space a slip might work better...
2017-03-09 17.53.05 (Medium) rotated.jpg
2017-03-09 17.42.02 (Medium) Rotated.jpg
A 50 used to gauge the length needed for the run round, an unlikely loco to turn up, but used for the size more than anything else.
2017-03-09 17.29.57 (Medium) rotated.jpg
2017-03-09 17.26.21 (Medium) - rotated.jpg
Using some old Mk1s and a 92 to gauge length and space needed. Obviouslly a 92 is both too modern for the 1960s era and longer than anything that is potentially to arrive.
2017-03-09 17.12.25 (Medium) rotated.jpg
Laying out the station roads initially. Roughly.
2017-03-09 17.12.16 (Medium) rotated.jpg
Laying out the station roads initially. Roughly.




Still more planning and thinking needed. An additional 3ftx1ft6" board will probably be needed. The original plan was for a 2ftx2ft board with cassette storage built into it, but with extension for an extra 2ft for 4 car units, but that is likely not workable so was rejected.

Then a 3ftx2ft board on the end was considered, but that gives problems with lining up with the 1ft6" width of the other boards. So a 3ftx1ft6" board with provision for a 4ft traverser to be on the side is the likely plan now. The layout has been flipped in effect too as the cuves will probably go to the right rather than left (putting the oil terminal on the front rather than the back of the layout). It sort of makes sense in my head!
Last edited by kelly on Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby dal-t » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:37 pm

Is anyone able to re-orientate those attachments so I can stop hanging onto my computer desk in a gibbering huddle - there really ought to be a 'Vertigo Suffers Look Away' warning for such posts. The Class 50, I presume, has crossed over from the thread where Magnahesion was mentioned ...
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kelly
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:47 pm

dal-t wrote:Is anyone able to re-orientate those attachments so I can stop hanging onto my computer desk in a gibbering huddle - there really ought to be a 'Vertigo Suffers Look Away' warning for such posts. The Class 50, I presume, has crossed over from the thread where Magnahesion was mentioned ...


I did rotate them before uploading them, but it seems the uploading has ignored that!

Will try to fix it and replace the attachments.
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:09 pm

Hopefully they should now be fixed.
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jon price
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby jon price » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:21 pm

Excellent! I''m now happy because I can see that it is not just me that does the track planning with bits of cut out paper and sudden requirements for additional boards. I'll be interested to see how this develops.

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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:34 pm

jon price wrote:Excellent! I''m now happy because I can see that it is not just me that does the track planning with bits of cut out paper and sudden requirements for additional boards. I'll be interested to see how this develops.


Previous planning has been done using Templot, but Natalie finds that difficult to understand and prefers the paper template and bits of track to visually plan the layout.

As it is based on a real location we have most of the layout of the plan already drawn, but it needs tweaking for thesize available.

Things always seem to evolve when I'm planning them! it started as a small 4ft8" layout plan, and has grown to 9ft, but that is mainly for interoperability of 4car units and 3carriage+ unit formations (which will look more realistic too).

Most stock will be of the 2HAL, 2BIL, etc type and 71, 73, 74 and 33s mainly, with probably the odd 47 turning up and a SLW 24 (or two) as well.
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby dal-t » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:39 pm

Ah, much more stable, and much easier to see what is being achieved. I have to say, despite wrestling with a variety of track-planning and track-building computer programmes over the last 30-odd years, I'm with Jon and still find it invaluable to test the flow of actual track and the clearance of actual vehicles in the wood/metal/plastic. You are fortunate to have so many components on hand to directly explore the possibilities and limitations.

I personally wouldn't worry too much about tackling a single slip after experience building a couple of standard turnouts, if that's what you decide you want. I think when I started track construction I leapt from one B6 turnout straight to a double slip (then stalled on a couple of curved mixed-gauge crossings, which were much more difficult and proved I was being wildly over-ambitious!). But as long as you proceed methodically, take care at each stage, and keep checking that each road flows naturally and smoothly, more complex formations are no harder than simpler ones. I do just wonder, though, whether despite following a prototype plan you're not squeezing a bit too much complexity into the space. Your period may be before the real craze for track 'rationalisation' began, although by then many spurs and sidings that had had a real use decades before were disused or redundant (and of course there's always the option of modelling them as such), but looking at the total number of turnouts and kick-backs I do get the feeling that maybe less could be more.
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kelly
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby kelly » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:54 pm

dal-t wrote:Ah, much more stable, and much easier to see what is being achieved. I have to say, despite wrestling with a variety of track-planning and track-building computer programmes over the last 30-odd years, I'm with Jon and still find it invaluable to test the flow of actual track and the clearance of actual vehicles in the wood/metal/plastic. You are fortunate to have so many components on hand to directly explore the possibilities and limitations.

I personally wouldn't worry too much about tackling a single slip after experience building a couple of standard turnouts, if that's what you decide you want. I think when I started track construction I leapt from one B6 turnout straight to a double slip (then stalled on a couple of curved mixed-gauge crossings, which were much more difficult and proved I was being wildly over-ambitious!). But as long as you proceed methodically, take care at each stage, and keep checking that each road flows naturally and smoothly, more complex formations are no harder than simpler ones. I do just wonder, though, whether despite following a prototype plan you're not squeezing a bit too much complexity into the space. Your period may be before the real craze for track 'rationalisation' began, although by then many spurs and sidings that had had a real use decades before were disused or redundant (and of course there's always the option of modelling them as such), but looking at the total number of turnouts and kick-backs I do get the feeling that maybe less could be more.


Thanks. It was why I picked up more track pieces to some extent to be able to better visualise it (and actually useable for building potentially).

It is set around 62-67. but it should be bared in mind that it is a double track route thats been truncated to a terminus, and so only one platform was ever used, so theres still the run round loop in place. We've taken one of the siding out as part of the 'on board' planning. The siding going along where the curves to the tunnel/bridge might go, not sure yet.

Most of the points are there for a reason and to allow for shunting movements. Natalie says it will be a 20 lever frame to operate (her thing is signalling).

Part of the plan is to allow for it being a through station later, by the possibility of another board being added to the left past the platform. Whether that will ever be built is unknown, but allowing for it in the planning will hopefully make it easier later to implement if needed.

I can't find an image online of the Shepperton track plan, but what we have at present is simplified in comparison really.
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Re: As yet unamed P4 small layout

Postby Phil O » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:21 pm

Kelly

Here is a link to the 1965/71 map.

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/507653 ... /12/100954

Phil


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