Finally Made A Start in P4!

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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CDGFife
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby CDGFife » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:18 pm

Thanks Tony - you beat me to it with the link!

It's a fascinating thread and full of possibilities.

CDG

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RobM
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby RobM » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:27 pm

CDGFife wrote:All in all I'm really pleased with the cutter and my mind is now full of other possibilities for it!
Cheers
Chris

Chris,
Endless possibilities, I do windows, arched window lintels, panelled doors, roof tiles to name a few.........I find the cutter works well up to 10 thou in styrene, beyond that it is a bit of a struggle. In the main I use self adhesive labels which can be obtained in A4 size. As mentioned before I am quite happy to share my drawings........
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

Lindsay G
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Lindsay G » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:20 pm

A word of warning, Chris...........it can be an addictive distraction just like Templot. However, it's an absolute timesaver and pretty damn versatile. Over the last couple of weeks, I've used it for prototyping, whether using the software merely to print templates or towards the final solution. Here Barnton's canopy has been sized, with the plan being to score clear acetate on the cutter into which microrod will be inserted to represent the vertical part of the T girder and 10 thou plasticard cut and attached to the underside to represent the horizontal part of it - on hold until canopy glue and non-bloom superglue arrive :

canopy.jpg
Creating the walls of the building would have happened a lot quicker if I'd made an earlier purchase!
canopy.jpg (83.1 KiB) Viewed 4123 times

The leftover material from some earlier prototyping made a pretty handy jig for the final brass units :

Canopy Jig.jpg
Canopy Jig.jpg (92.5 KiB) Viewed 4123 times

And this evening's exercise was the slates for the same building. Horizontal lines printed from the cutter software and vertical lines scored by the cutter (paper doesn't like being cross cut on the cutter), I can live with cutting the rows of slates. Shudder to think how long that would have taken to do without the cutter :

slates.jpg
slates.jpg (199.02 KiB) Viewed 4123 times

Course it can also do the odd wagon that you might shy away from otherwise :

breakdown van 17 Nov.jpg
breakdown van 17 Nov.jpg (65.06 KiB) Viewed 4123 times

Etching is superior but there's a definite niche for this item. Look forward to seeing your bundle of new goodies at our next meeting.

Lindsay

allanferguson
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby allanferguson » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:26 pm

Lindsay

I'm interested in the use of the machine for cutting rows of slates. In the (distant) past I've made rows of slates by cutting vertical slits in the rows. However I found that the vertical slits closed up and became invisible when the strips were glued down. One way of dealing with it was to put two blades in the craft knife, thereby cutting a very narrow strip between the slates which gave the required 3D effect. Can the silhouette achieve this effect with multiple cuts?

Allan F

Knuckles
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Knuckles » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:05 am

CDGFife wrote: So now I've added them into the farmhouse it's ready for the polyfiller, sills, paint (the walls are cob) and thatch.


I never knew people used balls of bread as building material. Ah well, we learn something every day. :D

Seriously though. I'm impressed with the cutter pics and if it saves you as much time as you say then might be worth it one day if a lot of buildings are needed.

Results look great and that building much so.
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RobM
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby RobM » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:24 am

allanferguson wrote:Lindsay

I'm interested in the use of the machine for cutting rows of slates. In the (distant) past I've made rows of slates by cutting vertical slits in the rows. However I found that the vertical slits closed up and became invisible when the strips were glued down. One way of dealing with it was to put two blades in the craft knife, thereby cutting a very narrow strip between the slates which gave the required 3D effect. Can the silhouette achieve this effect with multiple cuts?

Allan F


Up until now I have used just a single cut between the slates but prompted by your post thought I'd have a go and produce slates with a gap.
The result.......

roof-tiles.jpg
roof-tiles.jpg (48.96 KiB) Viewed 4054 times


The gap is 0.25mm and having removed the tile strip I did have to persuade a few gap pieces out with a scalpel. The tiles are 3mm x 3mm and cut out of an A4 self adhesive label.
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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CDGFife
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby CDGFife » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:38 am

Rob - I'm liking the tiles with the gaps a lot. It's the next thing I will try as the Signal Cabin and also the lean-too extension on the back of the farmhouse will need tiling along with the W/C roof next to the Signal Cabin. Unfortunately I failed to put in my stock of paper that I normally use for tiles when we came away so it is having to wait until next week!

What are you painting the tiles with? The texture looks really good. Also what package do you use for drawings? I'm currently using TurboCad and exporting to Sillouette Studio via DXF, but every export needs to be re-sized to come back to 1:1 - not difficult but a bit annoying!

Lindsay - Love the breakdown van. LSWR cattle wagons are definitely on my radar fairly shortly.

I also like the idea (shown on the RMWeb forum mentioned earlier) of using a scriber to scribe brass/nickel silver sheet. I might try this for the G6 chassis I need to build next.

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RobM
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby RobM » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:38 am

Chris......wish I'd tried it before with the gaps although in real life tiles are butted together, but for modelling it looks much better.
I was surprised at the outcome of the photo.....what is shown was just a test piece, given a coat of dilute Humbrol undercoat and photographed in artificial light which has altered the colour and apparently added texture.
I use Corel Draw and export as DXF and like you have to resize in Silhouette Studio.
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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RobM
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby RobM » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:39 pm

RobM wrote:......... although in real life tiles are butted together.
Rob

Correction.......Having Googled images of tiles many did have gaps....... :(
R
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

Phil O
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Phil O » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:29 pm

Too see some inspirational plastic modelling have a look at Ron Heggs threads on RMWeb, his main thread is Manchester Central etc. He is now doing commision work for a layout in Sri Lanka, the Sri Lanka stuff is all done on a Silhouette cutter, were as his Manchester Central work is mostly hand cut until his purchase of a cutter a couple of years ago.

Sorry there are no links, I have not worked how to do them on my tablet.

Phil


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duncan hutson
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby duncan hutson » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:20 pm

Hi, here is link the for Manchester Central, CLC & GN Warehouses & Castlefield Viaducts by Ron Heggs


http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... -viaducts/

Duncan

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RobM
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby RobM » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:40 am

CDGFife wrote: I'm currently using TurboCad and exporting to Sillouette Studio via DXF, but every export needs to be re-sized to come back to 1:1 - not difficult but a bit annoying!


Sorted...
Edit > Preferences > Import Options >When Importing DXF check As Is. The default is Fit to Page.

When importing I found that a bounding box also appeared. The import is also placed to the top and left outside the page view. I select the bounding box, delete it then move the drawing onto the page.
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

allanferguson
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby allanferguson » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:56 pm

RobM wrote:
allanferguson wrote:Lindsay

I'm interested in the use of the machine for cutting rows of slates. In the (distant) past I've made rows of slates by cutting vertical slits in the rows. However I found that the vertical slits closed up and became invisible when the strips were glued down. One way of dealing with it was to put two blades in the craft knife, thereby cutting a very narrow strip between the slates which gave the required 3D effect. Can the silhouette achieve this effect with multiple cuts?

Allan F


Up until now I have used just a single cut between the slates but prompted by your post thought I'd have a go and produce slates with a gap.
The result.......

roof-tiles.jpg

The gap is 0.25mm and having removed the tile strip I did have to persuade a few gap pieces out with a scalpel. The tiles are 3mm x 3mm and cut out of an A4 self adhesive label.
Rob


I think those slates look just right. Obviously a bit of distressing and appropriate painting and they'll be perfect. Although slates are laid touching each other their edges are not clean cut, and it is this effect which is well reproduced here. My original question, however still stands -- can these narrow slits be cut consistently with a Silhouette?

Allan F

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RobM
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby RobM » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:59 am

allanferguson wrote:
I think those slates look just right. Obviously a bit of distressing and appropriate painting and they'll be perfect. Although slates are laid touching each other their edges are not clean cut, and it is this effect which is well reproduced here. My original question, however still stands -- can these narrow slits be cut consistently with a Silhouette?

Allan F


In the test piece which only involved 1 row about 250mm they were consistent. I did refine the drawing and tried again, scaling was the problem but now I've altered the import preferences I will have another trial and see what happens and I'll report back.
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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RobM
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby RobM » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:10 am

I tried reducing the gap to .2mm but cutting sticky back paper left many 'gaps' to be manually removed. Have gone back to .25 which peeled off OK. All the cuts are consistent but if someone else wants a go and comment.......
Rob

9x18inch-tile.studio3
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Updated December 2016

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Will L
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Will L » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:10 pm

Hi Rob

I'm find I don't really get on with roof slate/tiles cut in strips. This is because experience has shown me that unless you lay each strip very accurately level and at exactly the right distance apart, it becomes obvious they are strips. Your sample piece Image
shows exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about, and I'm afraid once I've seen it it just shouts at me. Its just not the sort of thing you see on a full size roof. Of course if you can get it all exactly right then even I won't notice, but I found it very difficult not to make visible discrepancies. For that reasons I still do slate/tile rooks on a tile by tile basis, e.g. Slated roofs on the Platform Canopies on Knutsford East.

But then after all those sets individual slates should be no problem

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CDGFife
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby CDGFife » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:15 pm

RobM wrote:Sorted...
Edit > Preferences > Import Options >When Importing DXF check As Is. The default is Fit to Page.

When importing I found that a bounding box also appeared. The import is also placed to the top and left outside the page view. I select the bounding box, delete it then move the drawing onto the page.
Rob


Thanks Rob!

That will save me having to measure in TurboCAD and then re-scale in Studio.

I'll hopefully get to doing some tiles towards the end of this week so we'll see how it goes. Might well start with your studio file thanks.

CDG

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CDGFife
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby CDGFife » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:20 pm

Will - I think I see what you are saying, but to be fair Rob's pic was a quick test piece to look at the gaps.

I use the strips and also (as Rob has done by the looks of the picture) use horizontal lines at the correct spacings for the top of the strip. I stick with PVA so I have a fair amount of adjustment of the strips before they go off.

That said I look at some of my earliest building rooves(roofs?) and wince at the alignment problems!

Cheers

CDG

Lindsay G
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Lindsay G » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:46 am

I'm afraid I'm at odds with a few regarding these spaced slates/tiles, or at least depending on era, age, location, and so on.

If one's modelling something old or in BR days, then yes, uniformity is not the norm, so there's plenty of scope for avoiding obvious rows of tiles or even going for individual tiles, or looking at ways to simulate old and worn tiles/slates. However, if modelling buildings that are newer or when the Companies looked after their buildings as well as everything else, then tiled or slated roofs/rooves were pretty damn uniform and pristine. It doesn't look great on a model, pretty boring, 2D - even looking too much out of the box - but that's what they looked like.

If you want to add 3D by way of spacing, you might as well go use the likes of Wills or other sheets that over-exaggerate in every other aspect.

Quickly ducking for cover,

Lindsay

P.S. I did try running off some spaced tiles on my cutter as the thread progressed, but they suffered from rounded edges and I wondered whether Rob had a better cutting weight, speed, whatever. However, If I'd waited, Rob's file would have arrived and not only saved me the time in trying things out for myself, but perhaps provided the answer to square edges by having a criss-cross cutting pattern rather than the zig-zag pattern that my cutter was meant to follow. If that's the answer, then, thanks Rob! That might be incomprehensible to many - if so apologies!

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RobM
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby RobM » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:26 am

Will L wrote:Hi Rob

I'm find I don't really get on with roof slate/tiles cut in strips. This is because experience has shown me that unless you lay each strip very accurately level and at exactly the right distance apart, it becomes obvious they are strips. Your sample piece shows exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about, and I'm afraid once I've seen it it just shouts at me. Its just not the sort of thing you see on a full size roof. Of course if you can get it all exactly right then even I won't notice, but I found it very difficult not to make visible discrepancies. For that reasons I still do slate/tile rooks on a tile by tile basis, e.g. Slated roofs on the Platform Canopies on Knutsford East.

But then after all those sets individual slates should be no problem


As mentioned it was a quick test piece to see if the Silhouette could provide strips of tiles accurately......laying them straight and accurately centred is another matter. I think that at the end of the day it is a compromise to what is available and looks the part. We could probably extend the discussion to embossed styrene brick sheets which have an oversize mortar course which is deeply recessed but again they are a compromise and the majority of us use them.
I agree that individually laid tiles look more the part however many would not have the patience to go down that route...... :)

Lindsay G wrote:P.S. I did try running off some spaced tiles on my cutter as the thread progressed, but they suffered from rounded edges and I wondered whether Rob had a better cutting weight, speed, whatever. However, If I'd waited, Rob's file would have arrived and not only saved me the time in trying things out for myself, but perhaps provided the answer to square edges by having a criss-cross cutting pattern rather than the zig-zag pattern that my cutter was meant to follow. If that's the answer, then, thanks Rob! That might be incomprehensible to many - if so apologies!


The first drawing was done without intersecting cutting lines (as per the test piece shown) the attached file is an update with cutting lines overlapping.

Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:37 am

However, if modelling buildings that are newer or when the Companies looked after their buildings as well as everything else, then tiled or slated roofs/rooves were pretty damn uniform and pristine.


I have been involved with a fair few roofs professionally over the past 35 years both slate and tile, (new/re-laid/repaired,reconstituted) of many different kinds and designs. Prototype information is key.

Variations are myriad. If artificial slates are used or machine made tiles then uniformity is strong and a toy like appearance can remain for a very long time. Handmade and natural materials weather in surprisingly quickly and variation of profile/edge/colour gives a pleasing mix and randomness. Also depending on materials and methods, sizes vary as does thickness of material and edge treatment. With age the more natural offerings patina, split and fracture. Sub structure is also important as even new roofs laid on old structure will follow the less than true lines. All of this would be irrespective of maintenance.

I also think scale has an impact. Representing in 4mm scale may involve techniques which give the correct impression from the desired viewing distance and yet would not be dimensionally or structurally correct .... equally a correct rendering at 4mm might appear false to the eye.

All food for thought. I suggest that there is an element of the artists eye about all of this to achieve a true impression.
Tim Lee

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Noel
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Noel » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:06 pm

To quote from a 1917 textbook on building construction -

"Cutting of slates - In the cutting of slates, they are laid on an iron straightedge or cutting dog, and the edge is trimmed with zax. The face in contact with the iron straightedge is true and regular, but the upper surface is jagged and rough. The doubling eaves course is laid with its regular edge up; the course above and all succeeding courses are laid with their regular edge down, so as to obtain a close joint to guide away the rain and wind".

If I have interpreted this correctly, the join between slates resembles a narrow, irregular shallow "v", but with the bottom of the "v" closed by the meeting of the regular edges. The slates are butted together so as to minimise the risk of rain being driven under them or the wind lifting them. Modern slates are presumably sawn to size (?), and would therefore show no gap between slates.

The textbook makes reference to slates laid 2ins apart, but normally on only sheds or temporary buildings. The book doesn't comment on the thickness of slates, but some old ones found in my back garden were 0.2 - 0.3 ins. thickness.

[Zax is a variant of Sax - a small axe used for cutting roof slates, with a point for making nail holes.]
Regards
Noel

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:29 pm

Noel wrote:To quote from a 1917 textbook on building construction -

"Cutting of slates - In the cutting of slates, they are laid on an iron straightedge or cutting dog, and the edge is trimmed with zax. The face in contact with the iron straightedge is true and regular, but the upper surface is jagged and rough. The doubling eaves course is laid with its regular edge up; the course above and all succeeding courses are laid with their regular edge down, so as to obtain a close joint to guide away the rain and wind".

If I have interpreted this correctly, the join between slates resembles a narrow, irregular shallow "v", but with the bottom of the "v" closed by the meeting of the regular edges. The slates are butted together so as to minimise the risk of rain being driven under them or the wind lifting them. Modern slates are presumably sawn to size (?), and would therefore show no gap between slates.

The textbook makes reference to slates laid 2ins apart, but normally on only sheds or temporary buildings. The book doesn't comment on the thickness of slates, but some old ones found in my back garden were 0.2 - 0.3 ins. thickness.

[Zax is a variant of Sax - a small axe used for cutting roof slates, with a point for making nail holes.]


In my experience things are much more varied ... most text books deal with ' ideal practice' & choose as a starting point fine quality welsh slate assuming ordered and regular production with only trimming on site. They are great for understanding the basic principles but up until perhaps the 1970s local variation was massive. Cumberland slate tends to be thicker than welsh and the edges fracture more. Many roofs have different sizes as they progress towards the gutter. Cornish slate is even thicker! Also the value/status of the building is important, often waste and off cut slates from more prestigious buildings were used for low grade work... so you can get quite random edges and a fair degree of delamination from new. These roofs were still sound as it is the 3 layer overlapping and the quality of the clipping which ensures the waterproofing rather than the strict regularity or size. On certain projects we have mimicked random cutting etc to give a vernacular impression on recent work!
Tim Lee

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Noel
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Noel » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:33 pm

Nevertheless, textbooks do at least show what the ideal was, and I suggest that many, possibly most, Victorian industrial, large commercial and municipal buildings in England, for example, would have been high status in this context; as well as their ostensible purposes, they were often statements of economic status, real or hoped for. Local vernaculars would not have been relevant. So far as Cornish slate is concerned, I don't think it generally travelled far outside the county? Cumbrian slate travelled a bit further afield, including Scotland, which also had its own quarries, but I would suggest that most slate in England, particularly the industrial areas, was obtained from Wales until foreign sources [and other materials] became more common.

The main point I wanted to make, however, was that, in theory at least, the gaps between slates were minimal or non-existent [and irregular where they did exist], and, in 4mm, would have been a small fraction of a millimetre at the top, tapering to virtual non-existence at the bottom.
Regards
Noel


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