Finally Made A Start in P4!

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allanferguson
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby allanferguson » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:30 pm

I think, as so often in modelling, I was concerned to get something which looked right (to me), rather than being a precisely accurate representation of the prototype.

Allan F

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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:42 pm

The problem is that people expect to see the gaps. A roof with no visible gaps looks odd, even if it is correct.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:24 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:The problem is that people expect to see the gaps. A roof with no visible gaps looks odd, even if it is correct.


Because of the way the slates are chopped, the edges flake back towards the surface and are irregular. This gives the impression of a gap between the slates even if they are quite close butted. To represent at 4mm scale, (in the same way as you do when painting/sketching) I think you need to show/hint at a gap. You would also have a good case to say that this gap should be irregular.

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so I'm with Allan
I think, as so often in modelling, I was concerned to get something which looked right (to me), rather than being a precisely accurate representation of the prototype.

Allan F
Tim Lee

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Noel
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Noel » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:34 pm

This probably all comes under Tim Venton's "whose trainset is it anyway" rule, but most people try and achieve a smooth finish on a model loco, but photographed from that close, any steam loco paint finish is likely to show flaws which are not visible at normal viewing range. Nice photos though!

This shows a row of five house roofs [just after the rain stopped, hence the shine on some]:
Wet roofs.jpg

Nos 1 and 4 from the left are, I assume recently reroofed with new slates, 2 and 5 are fairly old and have, I suspect, the remains of some form of bitumen-type coating, of different vintages, and 3 is similar vintage, but not coated. The size is still greater than it would be at 4mm/ft, I think. The gaps show as darker lines, but no more.

Exaggeration for effect has a long and honourable history, but can tip over into pastiche. Is modelling something that is wrong because that is what viewers expect to see reasonable, or should we model what we see, even if it is not what viewers expect?
Regards
Noel

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:44 pm

Noel wrote:This probably all comes under Tim Venton's "whose trainset is it anyway" rule, but most people try and achieve a smooth finish on a model loco, but photographed from that close, any steam loco paint finish is likely to show flaws which are not visible at normal viewing range. Nice photos though!

This shows a row of five house roofs [just after the rain stopped, hence the shine on some]:
Wet roofs.jpg
Nos 1 and 4 from the left are, I assume recently reroofed with new slates, 2 and 5 are fairly old and have, I suspect, the remains of some form of bitumen-type coating, of different vintages, and 3 is similar vintage, but not coated. The size is still greater than it would be at 4mm/ft, I think. The gaps show as darker lines, but no more.

Exaggeration for effect has a long and honourable history, but can tip over into pastiche. Is modelling something that is wrong because that is what viewers expect to see reasonable, or should we model what we see, even if it is not what viewers expect?


Wow! ... thats an interesting roofscape. you have three different periods of slating and two imitation slates. Interesting to think how you might model that and whether it would look right or not.
Tim Lee

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jon price
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby jon price » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:37 pm

I think managing expectation is an interesting issue. I have been exploring this idea through the headings/factors of Prototype, Perception, and Practicality. What is the prototype actually like, how do we perceive it, and what is practical in modelling terms. None of these factors contains any ultimately definable "truth". In every case prototype varies enormously, and the quest to model something that existed at 5.00am on December 20th 1904 (for example) is futile as we will not be able to identify all the components, even of a single item such as a building or vehicle at such a point in time. The result is our prototype is a smeared best fit in time and space. Perception is another infinite variable. Some people are colour blind, some cannot see close up, no-one sees the hyper-real and photo-shopped modelling porn exhibited in so many of our magazines, combining as they do depth of field, lighting colour and temperature, and expectation (we think something is smooth so it is perceived that way for example). And then we have practicality of materials, of scaling, of our ability to create and so on. My models are ultimately made for me to look at, not for exhibition in a posed magazine article, or for examination through a magnifying lens, but in some kind of action. This all comes back to the "its my railway" idea, but with certain common tenets relating (mostly) to scale (hence P4)
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

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CDGFife
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby CDGFife » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:32 pm

Happy New Year All!

On a personal note I'm glad to see the back of 2016 and am looking forward to a better 2017.

Been busy over the holiday finishing the farmhouse. Here's some photos of it mocked up about where it will go on the layout. Apologies for the lighting - this board is in the loft with a single flourescent for company.

CSM17-1-1.jpg

CSM17-1-2.jpg

CSM17-1-3.jpg

CSM17-1-4.jpg

CSM17-1-5.jpg

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Slate roof on the little extension uses Rob's slightly gapped slates file for the silhouette cutter discussed earlier. Only problem I had was getting the "gap" bits of leftover paper off the sticky cutter mount sheet which took longer than tiling the roof!!

Also been busy getting the M7 running - still not perfect but nearly there - and done some more work on the first of the 2 carriage set, which is nearly ready for the airbrush.

Cheers

Chris

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RobM
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby RobM » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:16 pm

CDGFife wrote:Slate roof on the little extension uses Rob's slightly gapped slates file for the silhouette cutter discussed earlier. Only problem I had was getting the "gap" bits of leftover paper off the sticky cutter mount sheet which took longer than tiling the roof!!
Cheers
Chris


I use a 6" steel rule to remove them.....gets the job done quite quickly....... I've just done the roof for one of my last buildings, copy and pasted an A4 sheet but the gaps were not that consistent on my machine although the gaps did align. Painted and from 2-3 feet distance still look OK but then my eye sight is pretty poor.... :(
Liking the thatch....... :thumb
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CDGFife
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby CDGFife » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:11 pm

Been a while since I posted again - sorry. Life, work, modelling all gets in the way some times.

We did have a running session at the end of Jan and the M7 and new carriages went ok - just a little remedial work carried out since! I also managed to re-wire a CBus CANACC8 incorrectly and fry it whilst upside down under the layout, 1 hour before some visitors were due. Frantic hard-wiring of some switches in to the relays that the CANACC8 controlled meant we could still run. Might keep the switches ready as a contingency plan!

Did manage to get a switch in to isolate the sidings and also to control the isolated section, which enabled us to have two locos in steam. Going forward this will mean we can always have movement in the sidings whilst we're waiting for the running line trains to come along.

Anyway here's a couple of snaps taken by Phil Draper

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PhilD3.JPG
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martin goodall
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby martin goodall » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:33 pm

I seem to have overlooked this thread for some time, but a few further remarks about slate roofs might be helpful (even if they are rather late), as I have been spending quite a lot of time on modelling these roofs in recent months, and have done a fair amount of prototype research in this connection.

The first thing to say is that we should never forget that we are modelling in 4mm to foot scale (not 305mm to the foot), and so quite a lot of detail that can clearly be seen on the prototype, especially when examined at close quarters, will simply not be seen on the model, particularly when viewed from a ‘normal’ distance (say 2 to 3 feet away). I am also someone who treats all my models as no more than an “artist’s impression”, and this further reduces the detail I find it necessary to incorporate in models.

I think building textbooks are a good starting point as a guide to how slates were laid, although I do appreciate that actual practice could vary slightly. The method I use for representing Welsh slate varies depending on how far the model building is from the from edge of the baseboard, and can be seen in some of the photos in “The Burford Branch” thread on this forum.

Slates could be variable in size and finish in older vernacular buildings, but those built from the mid-nineteenth century onwards using good quality Welsh slates showed much more uniformity.

In the case of the Station Building and Train Shed, I painted some standard copier/printer paper grey, and cut out individual slates, which I stuck to the roof individually. It took ages! But the results were quite pleasing. For buildings slightly further back on the layout (including those recently seen in the brewery photos) I used laser-cut self-adhesive strips of slates from CD3D. (York Modelmaking produce a very similar product.) The slates were the colour of brand new and/or rain-soaked slates, and so I had to paint over them with a lighter grey to achieve the appearance I wanted. Study of real roofs showed that they are often steaked with a whitish leachate from the chimneys and/or lead flashing, and also have areas of vertical black streaking in some cases (cause unknown).

For the buildings right at the back of the layout, I have used either embossed styrene sheets from SE Finecast painted light grey or plain material also painted light grey, on which I have pencilled a hint of horizontal lines where the slates overlap. I have tried to produce a gradation of colour and detailing (less detail and lighter colours towards the back of the layout) whilst avoiding any obvious difference in appearance of these differently produced roofs.

[I shall also have to build some roofs covered with Cotswold stone ‘slates’. I can’t see any alternative to hand-cut and individually laid slates in that case.]

Just a couple of further comments on the points appearing earlier in this thread. First, the slight chipping on the edges of Welsh slates that can be seen even on modern Welsh slates is a detail that simply can’t be seen on a 4mm scale model, even if you try to reproduce this feature. Secondly a gap of 0.25mm [10 thou.] (mentioned previously) is equivalent to ¾-inch, which is really too wide. Perhaps we should not bother about the gaps between our modelled slates being invisible from a normal viewing distance; better that than over-scale gaps.

Finally, regarding the valley between two adjoining roof planes – as pointed out, and well illustrated by the photo reproduced here a couple of months ago, there is a noticeable gap between the edges of the slates adjoining the junction, with a lead ‘soaker’ laid under the edges of the slates down the valley. As seen in that photo, the gap (and consequently the visible lead flashing) in the valley can be quite wide, but I have established from looking at quite a few buildings that the gap is quite variable and in some cases is so narrow that the lead soaker can hardly be seen in the valley. As always, the key to good model-making (as with all good art) is observation. And of course, again as seen in the photo, don’t forget the flashing round chimneys, dormers and other features on the roof where the builders wanted to ensure the rain couldn’t get in.

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Will L
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Will L » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:59 pm

martin goodall wrote:..Just a couple of further comments on the points appearing earlier in this thread. First, the slight chipping on the edges of Welsh slates that can be seen even on modern Welsh slates is a detail that simply can’t be seen on a 4mm scale model, even if you try to reproduce this feature. Secondly a gap of 0.25mm [10 thou.] (mentioned previously) is equivalent to ¾-inch, which is really too wide. Perhaps we should not bother about the gaps between our modelled slates being invisible from a normal viewing distance; better that than over-scale gaps.


I live under a nice welsh slate roof and I have noted that, as you say, the edge of the slates is not a crisp and square as you might suppose. As a result the edges aren't vertical but lean in at an angle approaching 30 to 45 degrees meaning that one surface of the slate is slightly bigger than the other. The are laid with the big side down, so, although they are laid hard up against each other, there is an appreciable gap on the visible surface. Obviously the impact of this will, depend on how thick the slates are, which presumably varies with the quality of the slate, but on our roof 3/4 of an inch wouldn't be that far addrift. So while agree you would not reasonably want to model the chipped edge of the slates, the resulting visible gap between slates is another thing. Observation, as you say, is everything.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:26 pm

I am going to try an approach more akin to sketching than anything else for modelling of buildings etc. I have a theory that the eye has an infinite capability of interpretation if the right pointers/visual references are present. If the viewer is two to three ft distance at 4mm scale, then hint and impression gives the eye the references to fill in the detail where perhaps too much detail/technical knowledge might well look great when viewing from very close in but look unreal on stepping back. This is just a theory for me at the moment. I find it very interesting that these sketches by my grandfather use this approach and as a result play down certain elements of detail and perhaps over emphasise others to achieve the right overall impression.
Conderton. 1931.jpg
Tintagel P.O. 1936.jpg
Views 3. 1932.jpg
Canal 1 1936.jpg
HopeValley Farm.jpg
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martin goodall
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby martin goodall » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:25 pm

I thoroughly agree with Le Corbusier's approach (although the real architect of that name might not have done!)

The Tintagel Post Office has a roof of Cornish slate (presumably from Delabole) and being a fairly old vernacular building it shows all the character that one so often encounters in such buildings. It was only buildings constructed from the mid-nineteenth century onwards that were all neat and tidy, although the Georgians when building 'polite' architecture were also a bit prim and proper (but you should see how some of their buildings have settled an sagged over the years).

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CDGFife
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby CDGFife » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:49 pm

So taking advantage of Jacki being down in Brum for the week, Cadhay has been up from Monday to this morning. We've had three good running sessions and I got a load of work done on it also. A lot was electonics stuff, but some visible work was also completed. We're starting to get a good timetable together and there was some slick bell-coding on show at times. Did some much needed track tweaking on Wednesday evening and as a result the Thursday and Saturday running sessions were pretty good in terms of derailments (or lack of!).

CSM17-3-1.jpg
Southern end of the layout from Cadhay St Mary fiddle yard


In penance for the running session yesterday I scribed the farmyard cobbles last night. Lick of paint this morning and here's the result:
CSM17-3-2.jpg
Nose bag still to be hung on the stable door!

CSM17-3-3.jpg
The gate to go here is in the paint shop


The water tank area has had it's greenery started and the railway fence posts that run to the right, behind the stable have been laid
CSM17-3-4.jpg


Over all view of the northern end of the layout from Sidmouth Junction fiddle yard
CSM17-3-5.jpg


Meanwhile at the other end the embankments have been static grassed and the railway fence posts laid. The track still needs painting and weathering, but the local set (Southwark Bridge Models kits) with M7 (Hornby body on a perseverence chassis) is starting to run sweetly. People have commented on the sunroof (or fourth class carriage if you like).
CSM17-3-6.jpg

CSM17-3-7.jpg


Also done but not photographed is the signal box toilet, that has finally had its' roof slated. I used Rob Ms' silhouette cutter tile drawing from a few posts back for this and the signalbox roof. I can't tell much difference once they are laid and painted to the 'nick the gap with a blade' method I used on the barn or the 'lay each tile individually' method that I've used previously and it's probably at least a factor of 10 faster than either! Pics of signalbox (and loo) will follow at some point. Touching on Martins' recent comments (and others previously) I actually think the way the tiles are painted and weathered gives more to the overall impression when viewed at anything other than magnifying glass distance. To me they look good so I will stay with the gap and the cutter method going forward.

Cheers

CDG

MikeH
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby MikeH » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:20 pm

Anymore updates to this cracking layout? :D

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CDGFife
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby CDGFife » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:12 am

Thanks Mike for the nudge!
Apologies for being quite of late - been really busy work-wise. I have however made some progress on Cadhay's scenery.

Been mainly working on the northern board to try and get the scenic detailing some way to being finished:

The railway fencing is now complete and the overgrown area behind the stables/pigsty is done...
DSC_0153.jpg

along with the disused gate to the field access that the railway cut off...
DSC_0145.jpg

and the farmyard gate and approach track from the signal box is getting there..
DSC_0146.jpg


The signal box exterior has had some work, planting and signal wires/pulleys etc...
DSC_0149.jpg

DSC_0150.jpg


I've also done some work on the river, below the bridge, adding the water and effects...
DSC_0148.jpg

DSC_0143.jpg

The weir area upstream of the bridge was originally done in Woodland Scenics realistic water, which looked great but in the heat(?!) of the summer sun it sagged over the baseboard edge! This has now been cut out and Magic Water from the states has been used in place. Once the last layer has been added I'll add a couple more pics of this area.

Finally I've been working on stock (which I have also failed to document over on the Cadhay Stock thread!!).

Cheers

CDG

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RobM
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby RobM » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:32 pm

:thumb
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MikeH
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby MikeH » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:12 pm

Very nice! I love the shot from the farm down to the railway crossing. Btw what did you use to paint/stain your sleepers and paint the rail sides and chairs?

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CDGFife
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby CDGFife » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:09 pm

Mike,

The Sleepers/timbers are stained with a mix of Rustins Dark Oak and Ebony colours.

Once the track ballasting was complete I got the airbrush out and shot a fine run of Lifecolour dark rust mainly aimed at the rail web but allowed to wander onto the chairs occasionally. Then an overall dusting across the whole track, from just around the ends of the sleepers inwards, of Lifecolour track dirt and sleeper grime to tone the rust down. This leaves the ballast shoulder and cess clear of much of the dirt, which was how I observed most of the photos of track from my era in the countryside. Highlights of frame dirt, brake dust and weathered black in subtle patches completed it, all (except the rust) from the lifecolour Rail Weathering set.

Hope that helps!

Chris

MikeH
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby MikeH » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:05 am

Thanks Chris,

Just the info I was looking for :) I decided to rip up my mainline plans and go for a countryside layout as I think they look so much nicer (although not to everyone's taste) I have been struggling with trying to get the track colours right though on my practice track so I shall give your method a go :)

Cheers

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:56 am

CDGFife wrote:I've definitely been doing the electrical continuity testing before the final epoxy has gone off. Apologies if that was not clear!

Actuation is a topic in itself! But here is how I'm doing it:

CS-15-8-12.jpg

CS-15-8-13.jpg
CS-15-8-13.jpg

In terms of the electrical isolation resilience the first set of stretchers have been in place for around 12 months and although operation has not been heavy in that time I've not experienced any problems. As for actuation mechanical resilience, I've found it can be made reliable for small local runs but anything over say 600mm has proved to develop too much slop to work reliably. This of course could be down to the builder/fabricator and his tolerances! ;)

Cheers

Chris


Chris,

In the image above you show a running connection to the rodding bar which connects to the turnout crank. Do you have any prototype information as to how this connection was achieved? The digest notes show how it is done on a channel rod but not for a bar.
rodd connection.jpg
rodd connection.jpg (44.64 KiB) Viewed 6228 times


Edit - Have kindly been sent some detail drawings on RM web thread ... so question put to bed

When you have time would be great to see how things are progressing.

Tim
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Lee

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:44 am

Just found your parallel thread here.
Lost of interesting content but just gives you lots of options, drawings and photos, but not of the same thing. What is clear is that designs changed over the years and there is very little info as to when. Books such as quoted by Martin with the 15ft switch drawing would almost always be giving details of the latest design at the time of publication. And the 15ft switch is actually a relatively modern flexible switch where the switch rails are actually 30ft long with a "virtual heel" at the 15ft position, not a pivotted heel.
Regards
Regards
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:15 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Just found your parallel thread here.
Lost of interesting content but just gives you lots of options, drawings and photos, but not of the same thing. What is clear is that designs changed over the years and there is very little info as to when. Books such as quoted by Martin with the 15ft switch drawing would almost always be giving details of the latest design at the time of publication. And the 15ft switch is actually a relatively modern flexible switch where the switch rails are actually 30ft long with a "virtual heel" at the 15ft position, not a pivotted heel.
Regards


Hi Keith,

I started the RM web and Templot threads in an effort to try and get prototype info from the widest audience. Monsal Dale is more about modelling I hope. Most of the images I have turned up are pre grouping and the majority pre war ... unless I am reading things wrongly, the picture which is starting to emerge is that the bar rodding would have had an independent connection to the points as in the pictures (I certainly intend to have a go at modelling this). Also it would appear that the standard compensators are vertical at this time and not horizontal. The last piece in the jigsaw I think to allow me to get on is how the intermediate connection from the bar to the nearest crank on a cross over might have been formed ... hence my query here? Chris has modelled something, and it might give me a starting point if I draw a pre war Midland blank. If you have any thoughts I would love to hear them.

Edit - Have kindly been sent some detail drawings on RM web thread ... so question put to bed

Tim
Tim Lee

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CDGFife
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby CDGFife » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:20 am

Apologies all (and particularly Tim) for my lack of presence on this thread. I've been so busy with work commitments for the last few months that I just have not had time to contemplate coming to the forum. The fire door technical business has been extremely demanding since the summer and one of the perils of self employment is that you find it difficult to turn work away but have no additional resource available to pick the slack up!

Anyway just catching up on the comments re the rodding connection, and actually I have little to go on other than what has already been discussed.

I have managed to do a little modelling (mainly in hotel rooms!) but now am pitched headlong into getting Cadhay ready for it's exhibition debut (other than the part complete debut it made at Scleforum 2015) at Model Rail Scotland in Feb. Lots to do and I'll try and post on here whilst I'm doing it!

Regards all

CDG

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Finally Made A Start in P4!

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:25 pm

good luck :thumb

Nice to talk at Scaleforum this year.
Tim Lee


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