Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-1971

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:02 pm

Hi Mark,

They were commissioned through 'Precision Decals' and are ALPS based.

Rgds

Dave

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:50 am

Mornin' all,

The recent article about the layout in Scalefour News resulted in several queries about the logic of the twin viaducts crossing the broad river, rather than having one double track structure with the junction on the north side. As we are all well aware, applying the hindsight which we have today to the rash of railways built in the boom years of the 1850s would have resulted in approximately half of all lines not being built in the first place. In specific terms of Coleford jnc, it didn't come into being until 1865 when the line towards Bow in the Okehampton direction was opened. This was 11 years later than the opening of the Crediton to Barnstaple line, which was largely single track until 1876 when double track reached Yeoford. At this point we have to leap into conjecture mode due to the modellers licence aspect of introducing a theoretical wide river into a prototypical location. The original North Devon, Barnstaple line single track viaduct over the river would be likely to have been viewed by the promoters of the later Devon & Cornwall railway as a potential bottleneck for their planned traffic. The choice would therefore have been to build a new double track viaduct for the Plymouth line and divert/slew the Barnstaple line on the north side of the river to share the new bridge, before closing/demolishing the old one, or to simply go ahead and build the new viaduct alongside the old single track bridge because anticipated traffic levels warranted it. The discussion about the merits of either could go on for a long time and that is without knowing the wider orientation of the theoretical broad river and whether the railway(s) might have been routed to avoid crossing it at all (railway opening dates quoted are courtesy of the two superb Irwell Press tomes covering the area...The North Devon Line and The Okehampton Line).

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:06 am

Mornin' all,

To recap....zig zag sandwich aluminium sheet construction is the technique adopted for any future baseframes. Timber sleepers have been abandoned due to the issues in securing functional chairs to them...a stock of plastic sleepers has been built up.

Current progress with the layout centres on track construction techniques and the way in which the trackwork is secured to the 2mm aluminium sheet base. I've sourced .5mm ID. silicon tubing in various outer diameters and with various wall thickness to take 0.55mm dia. brass entomological pins (.8mm wall thickness is the likely choice for the tubing just now). These are a nice fit together and providing that I can provide holes through the aluminium with no sharp edges then I don't anticipate issues with the silicon tubing when the aluminium expands/contracts with heat/cold). I'm hoping to use the ento pins as mechanical droppers for holding the track in position (no bonding of sleepers to the ballast) which will further negate any expansion/contraction considerations and for electrical supply to the trackwork as appropriate. Setting out/taping the Templot diagrams to one of the 4ft x 2ft, 4mm polycarbonate sheets looks to be the technique used when building the track...this will be temporarily machine screwed to the surface of the track panel being worked on at the time and the holes for the silcon tubing/ento pin droppers drilled through the template/poycarbonate sheet/cork/aluminium sheet using a drill bit mounted on a modellers drill stand.

Pictures to follow once the camera battery has recharged.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:18 am

Tor Giffard wrote: resulted in several queries about the logic of the twin viaducts crossing the broad river, rather than having one double track structure with the junction on the north side.

Dave


There is nothing unusual as to the logic you have adopted Dave.

Calvine viaduct on the Highland Mainline a touch to the north of Blair Castle:

When built: https://www.flickr.com/photos/talesofon ... 948807594/
And with an additional bridge when the line was doubled: http://www.flickr.com/photos/38431558@N08/14482471376

None of this "to match existing" in the planning permission/parlimentary powers..........!
Mark Tatlow

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:12 am

....thanks Mark...I do prefer to mention points raised as I go along.

Here are a few current progress pictures on the test track frame:

The wide metal spreader/blade from B&Q is excellent for applying a thin, even layer of the adhesive. The small bottles of Titebond have given way to larger containers of the same glue as there are better savings with the bigger sizes and the likelihood of running out is reduced.

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Currently experimental....the modellers drillstand will have a large enough hole drilled through its base so that the drill bit can be accurately aligned to drill through the Templot diagram/polycarbonate sheet/ballast/cork/aluminium sheet sandwich....the polycarbonate sheet will be temporarily machine screwed to each frame as trackwork starts.

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0.8mm wall silicon tubing with a 0.5mm ID. is being trialled with brass entomological pins (0.55mm dia.) as a method of holding the track to the frame surface whilst providing electrical bushing and a degree of flexibility to negate any expansion/contraction of the aluminium sheet having any influence on the alignment of the track

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Woodland Scenics fine brown ballast is being trialled...the averaging/levelling sledge with fine abrasive sheet will be used across the surface once the wood glue has set and any loose ballast has been brushed off. Initial thoughts are that the grey shade is too bright/clean whilst the brown is giving a uniform ploughed field shade, therefore some blending of the two is the likely compromise.

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Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

John Palmer
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby John Palmer » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:10 pm

I would have thought it was odds on that ballast would have come from nearby Meldon, in which case I would think in terms of a very light, almost white colour to the ballast as it comes out of the hoppers but weathering to a slightly darker grey.

Your brown ballast looks more like the product of The Competition's quarry at Stoneycombe on the way up to Dainton, which had a distinctly pink hue.

Are you planning to lay track panels on top of a previously applied layer of ballast? If so, how confident are you of getting a sufficiently uniform top?

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Colin Parks
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:57 pm

Hi Dave,

I have read through the latest posts on your layout construction. Very impressive it looks too. There was one sentence which worried me somewhat and that is the one where you mention abandoning ply sleepers for attaching functional plastic chairs. I am new to P4 track construction and so could you tell me what the problems were?

All the best,

Colin

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:58 pm

Evenin' all,

My 1951-71 period doesn't suggest anything necessarily new in terms of track renewals/ballasting around Coleford jnc....I therefore take the view that any stone/ballast will have weathered/been contaminated by various deposits to a shade similar to what I see in colour images for the route at this time. Out of approx 20 images for the Crediton - Barnstaple/Launceston routes the closest ballast shade would be an approx 50/50 mix of the brown and grey, with some darker staining between the sleepers. The Woodland Scenics brown ballast being too brown and the grey too pale/light. Also, the scenic section will only feature ballast beneath the track on the main lines...whereas the experiment with the test frame is to see how level I can make an even application of ballast with the averaging/levelling sledge. The test frame is exactly that and won't feature in the layout.

As for ply sleepers Colin, I'm having various conversations with various experienced P4 modellers and the almost unanimous opinion is that the strength of the bond between a functional chair and ply sleeper in my situation won't be strong enough. The planned minimum viewing distance for the layout is 4ft for the public and I would challenge anyone to reliably detect the difference between ply and painted plastic sleepers at that range.

There are many automatic risks with attempting a new approach to P4 and I'm trying to avoid any unnecessary ones.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

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jim s-w
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby jim s-w » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:37 am

Why do you want it level dave. If you drive over a flat field it's far from flat in reality. I'd have said that unlevel would be better.

Cheers

Jim

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:12 am

Mornin' Howard,

The link to 'Blockpost' (since deleted) works but I'm unsure as to which specific content, you're directing me.

Continuing with the ballast experiments, I've mixed a 50/50 brown/grey jar for the next section of the test frame...I'm just waiting for the large containers of 'Titebond' to arrive. Once the loose brown ballast had been brushed off yesterdays section, the result was surprisingly flat/even.

Dave

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:40 am

and I'm trying to avoid any unnecessary ones.
IMHO, putting ballast underneath the sleepers is one of those, one case where its not a good idea to follow the prototype.
Keith

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:12 am

Mornin' Keith,

I'm attempting to avoid 'setting' the sleepers in a glue/ballast mix on the baseframe. One thought is to use the finest mesh (fine denier stocking material) to act as a carrier for the ballast around the sleepers...the mesh bonded only to the sleepers. The experiment with the ballasted test baseframe...which may well be abortive...is to see just how flat and even such an approach can be.

Dave

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jim s-w
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby jim s-w » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:32 am

You will very likey end up with the most eccentrically bonkers p4 layout ever built Dave. Like a model railway version of the DVD rewinder almost!

It is fascinating though ;)

Jim

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:42 am

Mornin' Jim,

If/when I've worked through the various ideas/compromises, the end result runs reliably, then no one will give a stuff as to how it was constructed...onlookers will simply judge the trains in the landscape as appealing or not.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Simon Glidewell
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Simon Glidewell » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:59 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:
and I'm trying to avoid any unnecessary ones.
IMHO, putting ballast underneath the sleepers is one of those, one case where its not a good idea to follow the prototype.
Keith


I couldn't agree more with Keith here; I think it would most likely produce uneven track and derailments aplenty. As you say though Dave, no one will be any the wiser as to how your track was laid, once it is all up and running.

Best wishes
Simon

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Colin Parks
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Colin Parks » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:02 am

Hi Dave,

I would be interested to know why the experienced modellers thought the functional plastic chair to ply sleepers would not be strong enough in your situation. I have been contemplating this issue and am minded to try epoxy as a bonding medium for my track work. On the other hand, I have read reports of problems with functional plastic chairs 'creeping' when being bonded to plastic sleepers. You will need plenty of track gauges to hold the rails in place while the butanone vents off.

Re. ballasting under the track in P4: I have no experience of such a thing in P4, but wouldn't have even tried it with 00!

All the best,

Colin

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:23 am

Hi Colin,

Providing that the prefabricated track rests on a flat/even surface and the droppers hold/retain it there, then I don't see why the pre-ballasting is a big issue...however, I stand to be corrected as the test frame experiments unfold.

I would welcome a strongly bonded plastic functional chair/ply sleeper solution too...I may well experiment with several sleeper/chair/adhesive combinations on the test frame and compare the results for myself.

Dave

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jim s-w
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby jim s-w » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:02 pm

Hi Dave

What does the pre ballasting achieve though? You would still need to ballast after the track is laid anyway as the track sits in the ballast not on it,

Cheers

Jim

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:00 pm

Hi Jim,

...as stated above, I'm looking at using a fine mesh/denier to carry the between sleepers ballast and blend this with the ballast on which the track sits, simply using a dropper arrangement to maintain the track in its position. The acid test will be what the arrangement looks like at approx 4ft distance. Trains won't need to run reliably on the test frame, therefore it is ideal for a range of experiments which I won't be able to do on the actual layout.

Dave

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jim s-w
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby jim s-w » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:31 am

I'm a bit confused. If it looks good but doesn't work then it doesn't tell you anything. Surely a test has to do both? Conversely if it doesn't look good but does work those results don't help you either.

Cheers

Jim

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:55 am

Mornin' Jim,

The test frame will feature a range of experiments...some will work and some won't, which is hardly likely to create an ideal situation for reliable train running. Any technique which makes it to the layout stage will clearly have to be successful but several other methods are likely to have died on the test frame/been discarded during the process. The long & short of it is that I haven't handbuilt track before and I want to satisfy myself that I'm using the right approach for me.

Dave

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:13 am

Aft'noon all,

The fresh supplies of Titebond original arrived 20mins ago...the I gallon container cost £27 inc p&p wherehas the small 237ml bottle cost towards £8...methinks I'll be ordering more large containers of it from Gluelines of Eastleigh

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The 50/50 mix of brown/grey was immediately sprinkled over a thin/even layer of the glue and left to dry

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Initial impressions are that a ratio of 1:2 (grey-brown) will be a further improvement.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Simon Glidewell
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Simon Glidewell » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:41 am

Hello Dave,

Apologies if this has been asked before (I can hear groans in the background!) but why are you not going down the tried and trusted cork underlay route for track laying, then adding the ballast around this?

Best wishes
Simon

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:48 am

Hi Simon,

The cork is there in sheet form, for what would originally have been a fiddle yard frame...now adopted as the track test frame...I don't want any temperature based changes in the 2mm aluminium sheet beneath the cork to affect the track formation in terms of alignment. If the track was bound by the usual glue/ballast mix then this would be much more likely.

Dave

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Simon Glidewell
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Simon Glidewell » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:55 am

Thanks for explaining that Dave; so there is ballast already glued over the cork underlay to which you'll then glue the track on top and do the final ballasting over the track?


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