Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-1971

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DougN
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby DougN » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:31 am

Alan makes a good point regarding the maximum length of timber. In Melbourne we now have trouble getting pine in 6m lengths (20ft in the old language!) I would expect that the absolute maximum length of timber from a single felled tree to be about 24ft. This now would be a special order for me and I know it would come as a engineered timber now. (I know as I can buy up to 11m long LVL timbers now... hitting the limits of what can easily be moved around on a building site) No doubt that the video's would show the maximum length by the length of the pressure vessel used to treat the timber!

The limit is defined by the cross sectional area along with the length of the log that it would come out of. The next things would be is it quarter sawn or radial or through and through, but I am getting off topic.
Doug
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:31 am

DougN wrote:I would expect that the absolute maximum length of timber from a single felled tree to be about 24ft.

Hi Doug,

The traditional limit for special-order timbers in bullhead days was 30ft. The GWR is known to have used timbers up to 30ft long in double-junctions. Often long timbers are not a single piece of wood but are two timbers halved and spliced together, the joint being secured by through-bolting old fishplates across the splice. For modelling purposes it is better to use a single length of timber and add plastic fishplates to make a dummy splice.

regards,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

DougN
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby DougN » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:58 am

Oh, I do agree Martin. The factor that I am trying to get at there is a limit to a grown tree for any section of timber. The natural world doesn't agree with what is required by engineers/ builders to do everything in single lengths. The spliced sleepers being the practical solution to the over length required. As I was saying 20ft is about the practical maximum from a tree. So as with everything a 30ft length must have been the maximum permissible length for transport/ handling/ longevity even when it was jointed.

From what you and I have said we have now got to the maximum length for a sleeper even when joined. As apposed to the maximum felled. All good information! :thumb
Doug
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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:42 am

Mornin' all,

The longest single crossing timber in the test track build equates to 26.7ft. Thank you for the splicing information Martin....I can now add plastic fishplates prototypically over butt joints to strengthen the end result and cosmetically (approx centrally) on those with end extensions. The actual cosmetic extension joints can be disguised at the painting stage.

Dave

John Palmer
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby John Palmer » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:42 am

I own up to being the one who was too profligate in the use of long timbers in the work I did on Dave's Templot design. At his request I've made a number of modifications to it, and uploaded the revised design to the Templot forum.

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:04 am

Hi John,

Given your generous assistance thus far, I certainly wasn't going to point any fingers in your direction.

This is a sample of John's latest handywork with the TG trackplan
Track.gif


The complete scenic section track plan can be seen here by clicking on the link at the bottom of message 17607 (25th message). Use 'group' at top of screen and 'move labels' icons to uncover the track diagram if you're new to Templot
http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?i ... forum_id=6

Dave

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:24 pm

Tor Giffard wrote:Use 'group' at top of screen and 'move labels' icons to uncover the track diagram if you're new to Templot

Hi Dave,

Or just press the END key ( or click trackpad > hide name labels menu item).

Templot .box files can be attached directly here in this forum, if under 1MB. Here is your file (with the unused templates removed to get it under the 1MB size limit):

revised_tor_giffard_2014_11_03_1214_52.box
(814.76 KiB) Downloaded 120 times

regards,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:50 pm

Thank you Martin...I'd not discovered that route.

Dave

John Palmer
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby John Palmer » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:40 pm

Blimey, I hadn't noticed how many unused templates there were! Should have thought to go into the storage box and clear them out.

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:01 pm

...the first person clicking on the link said that they couldn't see the track for labels, so I thought I'd better try and do something.

Layout progress

I'd not realised how time consuming it can be to prepare the sleepering on a complex track diagram...I've spent most of the afternoon selecting, trimming or extending more crossing timbers and there is much more to do. Checking the thickness of the C&L plastic sleepers with the vernier, there are slight variations amongst the black ones whereas the grey ones tend to be more uniform.

2.2/2.3 & 2.4mm dia. twist drills have been ordered from Meadows & Passmore (clockmakers supplies) of Brighton. Once I've established the ideal drill size for the silicon tube/ento pin assembly then I'll order a few spares.

Dave

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:57 pm

Aft'noon all,

Following the timely arrival of John's last likely Templot diagram upgrade yesterday it made more sense to print off the latest version for the double junction this afternoon and transfer the timbering already prepared to the new diagram. Once it was in place trimming of C&L plastic sleepers to the required lengths could get underway again.
The unballasted left hand end of the test frame will be sleepered with longitudinal ply beams to gain practice in techniques required for the 2 large metal viaducts on the layout. The nearer portion of the right hand side of the Templot diagram will be sleepered with the C&L plastic timbers, whilst the far side will be sleepered with traditional ply sleepers and functional plastic chairs. I have some brass slide chairs which will also be trialled on the test frame

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Dave

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:30 pm

Evenin' all,

Progress this afternoon centred on dividing the test track Templot diagram into building segments for electrical isolation and marking dropper/ento pin/support strip positions to retain the pre-shaped rails. Flourescent highlighters in a range of colours fit the bill for marking out the diagram

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Further work ongoing includes creating a jig for offering up the droppers/ento pins squarely from beneath the baseframe, ready for soldering to the underside of the rail in the pre-drilled locations. A second set of templates has been printed off and is being bonded flat to MDF 1ft squares ready for the segments to be constructed on top of them.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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John Donnelly
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:34 pm

Dave,

I know you've shown how you are laying the ballast under the track but how are you planing on ballasting between the sleepers?

John

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:42 pm

Hi John,

Experimental and subject to modifcation just now but I'm gathering together a few pairs of fine denier womens tights to cut up and trial in several ways to carry the ballast between the sleepers, without it being bonded to the ballast beneath the track.

Dave

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John Donnelly
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:50 pm

So, and aplogies if I have this wrong, you are going to stretch individual pieces of this stuff between each sleeper and lay the ballast dry on top of that?

John

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:11 pm

Hi John,

I'm looking at how the fabric takes/is disguised by primer when draped across the sleepers...the ballast between the sleepers being level with the top of each sleeper as per my period prototype. How long it takes to achieve the desired effect aross a short length of track will decide whether this approach is pursued, along with how convincing the appearance is. PVA is likely to be used to hold the ballast in place.

Even at this point it looks most likely that the ballasting/track building approach to be used on the actual baseframes of the model will follow that used by Howard Bolton in his recent MRJ article.

Dave

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:53 pm

Aft'noon all,

A day in the conservatory whilst the rain poured down outside has resulted in more progress:

the unusual sized drill bits from Meadows & Passmore allowed the ento pin jig to be created...an easy sliding fit for the ento pin/silicon tube assembly....a sliding fit for an ento pin on its own so that once a jig is offered up to the underside of the baseframe for soldering to a rail or rail sub-assembly then the jig will hold it vertical whilst the soldering iron is touched to the rail/pin head joint (pin head filed flat & tinned first)....the third jig hole is a slight interference fit for an ento pin on its own in case it is better to have a more solid support in some instances. Once the pin is soldered vertical then the silicon tube/bush can be slid over the pin (it may be necessary to devise a support for the pin at this stage to ensure that it isn't bent out of vertical). A dozen or so 4 inch jigs will be created so that a crossing or switch under assembly can have its various ento pins offered up simultaneously.
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most of todays shift has been spent working on the test frame with the miniature drill press producing 2.15mm dia. holes for the ento pin/silicon bush assemblies at all points where they are required...an ento pin/silicon bush assembly can be seen in its intended position near the centre of the image
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Seen from the underside of the test frame once the swarf has been removed from the drill holes with an outsized drill bit
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The trackwork sub assemblies will be built up on identical Templot prints bonded flat to MDF board.

Dave

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:05 am

Mornin' all,

Staying firmly on the 'living trackwork' theme and further exploring ballasting options, I've ordered some very finely granulated cork
http://www.charlescantrill.com/shop/mod ... k-ballast/ (to be secured by a latex based adhesive) with the purpose of allowing a degree of expansion/contraction in the track, as suggested in Mr Rice's 'Finescale Track' book...thus avoiding 'setting' this essentially living element of a model railway in "concrete porridge". Improved sound deadening/insulation is an added attraction to this route.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:48 am

Tor Giffard wrote:to be secured by a latex based adhesive

Hi Dave,

Be sure to cut away the dried latex film where you want to drill any holes. If you try to drill straight through the latex you will end up with most of your ballast wrapped round the drill bit. But don't take my word for it, try this yourself on a bit of scrap track. I can see that you want to test everything from first principles, which is great. My pet hate is someone who starts their post with "I was always taught ...". Image

Martin.
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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:44 pm

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the tip. I've just finished drilling and de-burring all ento pin/silicon tube holes and will be moving into sub-assembly build mode shortly. Only once I have all sub-assemblies built/in position with any plain rail aligned to my satisfaction between them, will any consideration of ballast/latex adhesive on the test frame enter the equation.

As for first principles....I find it extremely difficult to use a particular technique just because someone tells me to do it that way...I'm much happier when I thoroughly understand why a job is done in a particular way and whether there are any alternative strategies (obviously requires some practice/hands on) esp. as this then allows me to explore a few techniques in tailoring designs to my individual needs/desires.

Todays progress is limited to the production of the first pair of point blades from code 75 'Hi-Ni' C&L bullhead rail (metre lengths)....as expected the second blade was rattled off in a fraction of the time required for the first. I had just measured and cut a scale 60ft rail reference length out of a crossing timber strip, only to realise that these point blades exceed a scale 60ft in length. It took a little practice to learn the art of applying consistently gentle curvature to long blades, so that they happily describe the arc of the template to which they relate, without the need for sideways force to restrain/persuade them into shape. There is no substitute for the Mk 1 eyeball in detecting continuous curvature in rail.

Tomorrow will see practice in creating the first crossing vee's.

Dave

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:45 pm

Aft'noon all,

First experiments with point blades and crossing vee to be seen here. Using surfaces which won't mark the rail head,the technique trialled for the gentle profiling of the blades is to hold the rail square against the glass surface/Tufnol block right angle, trap it with the chamfered softwood edge and pull the rail though at a slight angle, reversing it for curving throughout the length of rail. Repeating until the rail matches the arc of the template.
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Similarly and using overlength vee rails to make curving the vee easier, here is the first attempt. I followed the Scalefour notes re 'kinking out' the nose area of each rail and filed down to the web of the rail at the tip on each. Having marked the length of the rail join at the vee from the template onto each rail I filed the angle to the tip of the vee on the other side of each rail. The rails were held perpendicular to the flat MDF surface by 'square' metal blocks and the nose of the vee clamped by a 'nick' in the end of a length of crossing timber, whilst the soldering iron cemented the relationship between the two halves of the vee. A solder fill was used to make profiling the sides of the vee seamless but a mistake in using plain jaw pliers to squeeze the vee, to try and match the template exactly won't be repeated. Having slight excess to profile/sand down with wet & dry seems preferable. Although the templates are very good,there is no substitute to eyeballing the profile required at the crossing nose for seamless transition to the point blades. The solder contamination of the rail head was solved once I was happy with the relationship between the two halves of the vee, simply by smoothing/wiping off the offending deposits with the soldering iron.
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Dave

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:15 pm

Aft'noon all,

Following on from John P's kind corrections/revisions to the TG scenic section Templot trackplan it was time to run off a set of templates to check what adjustments would be required in the alignment/positioning of the twin bridge decks. The pictures below tell some of the story:

The Barnstaple end of the Barnstaple bridge deck can be seen to the right of the end of the template. The templates are aligned to the curving bridge deck below
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The Plymouth end of the Plymouth bridge deck can be seen to the right of the end of the template. Again the templates are aligned to match the curving bridge deck below
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Originally, the 'X' of the nearest diamond crossover was adjacent to the bridges to station frame joints, the alterations have moved the diamond 6 inches inboard of the station frame joint and the point ends leading towards that diamond from the Plymouth route are now just clear of the joint. A fortunate situation indeed...had it have been a 6 inch shift in the opposite direction then widening sections for the twin bridges would have been called for and there may have been P&C over the joints. As it is I can simply revise the length of the 2nd station frame when it is built to cater for the adjustments
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The revisions required to the cork track bases can be noted around the double junction and towards the goods run round loop area at the bottom of the picture
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Dave


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