Glenmutchkin - Water Tanks

[Mark Tatlow]

I wished to use builder’s trestles for the supports for Glenmutchkin as they fold down, are very sturdy and durable (and are fairly cheap). But, I also wished to go for a fairly full depth on the layout and they only come in the one depth (about 26 inches). This meant I needed to cut and shut them, to make them into a stretch trestle.

Fortunately, my father in law was over at the weekend, and he has had 40 years in the motor trade so could tell us a thing or two about how to cut and shut (sorry Bernard!). So, coupled with my brother and his welder, we have managed to cut and shut the first three trestles (the others do not need the same treatment).

Here is my brother James hard at work on the smaller of the three.

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I need to sort out a better means of storing Portchullin’s lighting pelmets. One of the lessons I have learnt from Portchullin is that it has too many odd shapes and insufficient thought on how it should be stored/transported.

[John Palmer]

Nothing wrong with welded baseboard supports! - our old Burnham layout uses electrical conduit pipe welded into 'H' shapes for its legs.

FWIW, I am arranging the enclosure panels for one side of my present layout to do double duty as the lighting rig/pelmets, as per the attached schematic. The letters A to C show the location of the panel facets both in travelling mode and as erected. One potential disadvantage to this arrangement is that the public-facing pelmets may take some damage whilst in transit.

[Tim V]

Welding was used on the sub-structure of Clutton, so fear not - it's a well trodden route.

[Mark Tatlow]

One potential disadvantage to this arrangement is that the public-facing pelmets may take some damage whilst in transit.

I like the concept of parts of the layout doign more than one job, but I see your concern with regard to damage to a visible part where its "other" job is to provide protection.

Have you thought of making a pop on/pop off facia to the lighting pelmet secured with velcro? You would need to find somewhere to put this for transport of course, but I do get a fair amount of damage to my facias - partly because I have not cracked how to store or transport them, they being an awkward shape!

[Mark Tatlow]

Nothing wrong with welded baseboard supports! - our old Burnham layout uses electrical conduit pipe welded into 'H' shapes for its legs.

One other point. I would think it is pobably a good idea to connect thesupports for the lighting pelmet/rig to the legs and not the layout. Partly because of how the strains will work through the backscene/layout and partly because any jogs to the pelmet will be slightly less likely to make the 4:00 express leap from the rails?

[martin goodall]

Welding was used on the sub-structure of Clutton, so fear not - it's a well trodden route.

Also on BODMIN (about 35 years ago and still going strong).

(Possibly also on HECKMONDWIKE? That would have been about 40 years ago, but I am not so sure about the supports on that layout.)

[John Palmer]

Have you thought of making a pop on/pop off facia to the lighting pelmet secured with velcro? You would need to find somewhere to put this for transport of course, but I do get a fair amount of damage to my facias - partly because I have not cracked how to store or transport them, they being an awkward shape!

It has indeed occurred to me that I may need to apply some kind of overlay fascia in order to conceal transit damage. However, this means adding to the list of items that make the display look good but risk being missed from the layout inventory when departing for a show. Worse, any added fascia panels are going to put extra weight at the highest point of the exhibit and increase the risk of capsize.

The problem of adding extra topweight reinforces Mark’s point about how any nudge to the lighting upstands may result in spread-eagled rolling stock, the more so since any such nudge may well be applied where the leverage effects are the greatest. I don’t see how attaching the lighting rig to the layout’s legs will reduce that danger unless some way can be found to decouple the rig so that any shocks applied to it will not be transmitted to the layout. Does this make a case for a lighting rig that is entirely free-standing? Perfectly possible, but once again adding to the inventory of kit to be taken to a show.

Designing a layout to make it fit for exhibition use has always struck me as a neglected subject. For example, there is ample material available that describes the fabrication and fitting of Alex Jackson couplings. However, aside from an acknowledgement of how vulnerable AJ’s can be to misalignment, I don’t recall having seen anything about designs for stock transport that will help prevent such misalignments occurring in the first place.

[DougN]

First of all I would do away with the Fluro lights. No matter how they are made they seems to end up quite weighty. Have a look at the LED strips. There is a local supplier here in Melbourne that does 5 meters $80. So this will reduce the weight down considerably. If you need more light it would be possible to just double up! Yes there will still need to be a fascia but lighter materials could be used. Would the foamboard be suitable if you could get it in long enough lenghts? I guess it would be problematic in that it would be more easily damaged.

[Terry Bendall]

Possibly also on HECKMONDWIKE?

It is a long time ago but ! am fairly certain that the supports on Heckmondwike were made using Speedframe, which for those who don't know , is a system of 1inch (as it was in those days) square tube with hard plastic joints that could be used to construct a rectabgular framework. Not cheap, but idea for those who cannot access welding equipment.

Designing a layout to make it fit for exhibition use has always struck me as a neglected subject.

Yes it probably is, but the South London Group seem to have a good system as those who have seen St Merryn will have seen. It is all described in the book written by the group which is still available from the Stores.

I do get a fair amount of damage to my facias - partly because I have not cracked how to store or transport them,

One way of preventing some damage is to wrap the facias in dust sheets and secure it with masking tape - making a large parcel in effect. This is what we have done with Ravenscroft Sidings and Elcot Road where the same facia does for both layouts with a separate part for the layout name. Not easy of course for the curved shapes that Mark has. One way of solving that sort of problem is to bolt the facias face to face as some people do with baseboards and then use a dust sheet if needed. Another idea from St Merryn is to use a water based paint and take a small pot with you so that any scrapes can be touched in at the show and water based paint means that it is easy to clean the brush out afterwards.

Have a look at the LED strips.

I have seen these used and they are certainly bright, sometimes in my view too bright. An alternative are the small strip lights designed to be put under wall cupboards in a kitchen to illuminate the work surface below. Not very heavy and they do the job well. Again these are used on our layouts.

Would the foamboard be suitable if you could get it in long enough lenghts?

I think that lighting for long layouts is always a problem and almost inevitably intermediate supports are needed, and that usually means something fixed to the back of the layout with the problems that others have mentioned. On Pulborough we have a long and heavy facia which does work. It is made from 25mm square timber for a frame with 4mm plywood for the front which is about 300mm wide. The lights are adjustable spot lamps with 60 watt bulbs. It is supported on 20mm dia. conduit tube which has a vertical post and then a horizontal support which projects across the layout. It is in five sections which slote together using a parge version of a mortise and tenon jont and the sections are then bolted together at each joint using L shaped brackets. There are lengths of 100mm x 50mm timber on the floor which the ends of the conduit fit into and this counteracts the tendencey of the bottom of the vertical supports to slide away from the layout. We have one vertical support at the front which is a length of 25mm square timber, painted white and fitted with a wood screw at each end which have the heads cut off after fitting. One screw goes into a hole in the timber block in the floor and the other into a hole in the underside of the facia. Quite time consuming to put together and it is assembled on the floor and then everyone lifts it into position when it is together. In hindsight I probably would not do something as large and complex now - it could be made narrower and still do the job, but it seemed like a good idea at the time and it does work.

Terry Bendall

[DougN]

Terry, the idea of the LED strips is for that exact use I have used them in a recent project for the under bench lighting. With out the technical details of a Lux meter I can not say if the LED's are brighter or not. The one thing you do away with is the relatively restricted lengths of 600, 900, and 1200 fluros. Yes I too have the exact same fitting on my OO layout.. the one problem with Fluros is you get dark spots at the ends of the tubes. The LED's at 5m long should avoid this. Dare I say as modellers and we have a general understanding of the idea of LED's they can be adjusted in length. We can fix then to the fascia and install plugs at the relevant points The next advantage it is all low voltage and very easy to change and modify. I am keen to see how they can be used, the layout I would like to build includes curves at the ends which I would be interested to see how the LED's can be curved around! But that is in the future.

[LesGros]

DougN" wrote:

...I am keen to see how they can be used, the layout I would like to build includes curves at the ends which I would be interested to see how the LED's can be curved around! But that is in the future...

You could try Maplin Product Code: N91NA . The LEDs and resisters are mounted on a thin self adhesive pcb strip, so easy to mount on a curved surface. They are stocked in rolls of several metres. They are sold in units of 5cm, cut (with scissors) from the roll. The LEDs are connected along the strip so they can be connected to power supply at one end; very convenient to use as a substitute for neon strip lighting. The code mentioned is soft white but other colours are available.

[Mark Tatlow]

I do get a fair amount of damage to my facias - partly because I have not cracked how to store or transport them,

One way of preventing some damage is to wrap the facias in dust sheets and secure it with masking tape - making a large parcel in effect.

Concuring with John P and Terry on this; the transportation and practicality of exhibiting of a layout is not really that well thought about generally and specifically with Portchullin! I have plans in this regard; although the creation of large wrapped parcels strikes me as replacing one problem with another!

[Mark Tatlow]

I think that lighting for long layouts is always a problem and almost inevitably intermediate supports are needed, and that usually means something fixed to the back of the layout with the problems that others have mentioned. Terry Bendall

I also have plans for this and it will pick up on some of the points raised earlier; I just need my brother's welding gear back before we get to this (so watch this space!).

Whilst I am still looking at lighting and have not yet totally ruled out LED lights, I have yet to find any that provide the uniformity and quantity of light that is needed to properly illuminate an expanse of layout. I have found quite strong spot lights (pools the light too much) and some weak striplights (like those that Les has sugested - whcih I find to be just too weak). So still work in progress...........

[Paul Townsend]

Terry, the idea of the LED strips is for that exact use I have used them in a recent project for the under bench lighting. With out the technical details of a Lux meter I can not say if the LED's are brighter or not. The one thing you do away with is the relatively restricted lengths of 600, 900, and 1200 fluros. Yes I too have the exact same fitting on my OO layout.. the one problem with Fluros is you get dark spots at the ends of the tubes. The LED's at 5m long should avoid this. Dare I say as modellers and we have a general understanding of the idea of LED's they can be adjusted in length. We can fix then to the fascia and install plugs at the relevant points The next advantage it is all low voltage and very easy to change and modify. I am keen to see how they can be used, the layout I would like to build includes curves at the ends which I would be interested to see how the LED's can be curved around! But that is in the future.

I have used LED strips to illuminate successfully below a hidden part of my fiddle yard, good for naked eye and small video camera.
I will try and post a piccy later or tomorrow.
The range is only inches so plenty of light. I doubt if a single strip at 3ft + range will be any good, so tripling should be considered for an overhead gantry.

The colour balance of leds varies between manufacturers and all, like fluorescent tubes and modern CFL, have spectral lines with gaps. This is quite different to Black Body radiation from filament lamps.Some paint colours will become invisible or rather dark. While the better manufacturers give spectrum spec for led spots this isn't always easy to find and even less so for the cheap led strips.

Follow the modellers mantra: build and paint under the exact same lighting that will be used for display.

The low power and cool running is an advantage.

I will use a mix of led strips and spots to light my under-construction exhibition layout.

[JFS]

I like the idea of LEDs (even though they have been a disaster in our kitchen - cost a fortunate and only last a few months).

So has anyone tried LED panels (such as these) -

http://www.deslamps.co.uk/commercial-li ... _1685.html

-they seem to offer a high level of brightness and a high colour temperature and a very even light over a large area.

Cheers,

[Mark Tatlow]

So has anyone tried LED panels (such as these) -

http://www.deslamps.co.uk/commercial-li ... _1685.html

No, but the nature of my employment means that we can easily wangle a sample or two; so I will be giving it a go.............

[Paul Townsend]

I have used LED strips to illuminate successfully below a hidden part of my fiddle yard, good for naked eye and small video camera.
I will try and post a piccy later or tomorrow.
The range is only inches so plenty of light. I doubt if a single strip at 3ft + range will be any good, so tripling should be considered for an overhead gantry.

Highbridge below MPD_small pic.jpg

Here is the promised piccy.
In operation, the scenic parts are lit by LEDs on overhead gantry. These are off for this pic, just background old fluorescent tubes in use. A single strip of leds runs round under this part of the fiddle yard throat and serves to illuminate so I can keep track of errant stock etc., visible by naked eye or on small video camera. The distant black hole is some 3 feet away from the visible wall at edge of scenic roads above. This area needs another led strip in due course.

[Mark Tatlow]

When last I updated you on Glenmutchkin, we were making the legs. These have been reassembled and look like this:

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They are not yet finished as I wish to make a mount for the support girders; so it will soon be time to prevail on my brother again!! However, I have been tinkering with plans and have come up with the baseboard layout and a rather tidier rendition of the basic plan:

Glenmutchkins Plan 2.png

A little unusually, I am making the layout two boards deep as I am trying to get a lot of “depth of field” in the model. Portchullin works very well in this regard to the right side where there is a bank and you do not see the back of the layout but less so in the station building area or across the bridge. The depth of field is intended to try and overcome this but I will be having quite high hillsides behind again for much the same reason.

I am hoping that I have been able to book a bit of time in some friend’s joinery shop this week to make a start on the building of these. Five of the boards are relatively simple; the last two (nos 3 & 7) a lot less so. One of the chief areas that Portchullin lets itself down on is the quality of the baseboards – compensation/springing is a must on steam locos for example! My friends (Tim & Julian) pointed this out with some vigour and told me that they really knew being joiners…………well you can see where that led for the next layout!

Every favour has a price though; so I am down to build something in return for them!

[Tor Giffard]

Hi Mark,

The Barrowmore boys had a good system with Mostyn for transporting facias...they used a ply 'coffin' shaped box lined with polystyrene which had a lid too. Yours may be on a smaller scale but the same principle would work.

Dave

[Mark Tatlow]

Hi Mark,

The Barrowmore boys had a good system with Mostyn for transporting facias...they used a ply 'coffin' shaped box lined with polystyrene which had a lid too. Yours may be on a smaller scale but the same principle would work.

Dave

I did have something like that in mind; a box to take a number of the braces, facias, power board, nuts & bolts etc.

It is one of the things that I have learnt from taking Portchullin out - you need a dedicated tool box with everything you need with it - tools, the gear for the layout, gauges etc.

[Terry Bendall]

Scalefour News 177 contains a descrition of the boxes that I have used for layouts of all shapes and sizes and it would certainly be possible to make boxes of the type I described for the boards that Mark proposes to use.

All the layouts that I have been involved with have been designed to go to exhibitions and they all have had boxes. It makes transportation easier since they can be stacked on top of each other in a car or van, it protects the layout when being loaded, especially if it is raining, and they can be stacked up for storage. I would not contemplate taking a layout of any size to a show without some sort of box, but I have not yet found the need to use polystryene inside.

I did have something like that in mind; a box to take a number of the braces, facias, power board, nuts & bolts etc.

One single box for that lot may be a bit large and cumbersome. On Staverton and Elcot Road some of these parts are stored within the fiddle yard space for transport which means that they don't get left behind. For all the nuts, bolts and screws needed I use a partitioned plastic box with a close fitting lid bought from a DIY store, so each size of bolt has its own compartment. Much easier than scratching through one large box that holds everything. Facies and pelmets travel wrapped in dustsheets and held in place with masking tape.

you need a dedicated tool box with everything you need with it - tools, the gear for the layout, gauges etc.

I use a plastic crate with all the controllers, leads etc, and this is designed to be used for both the layouts we have built so far and it will do for the others. A futher crate contaions the mains leads. For hand tools and gauges I use my very old engineers' wooden tool chest which normally lives on the workbench and contains all the common model making tools that I need. When we go to an exhibition it is simply a case of collecting what is needed from the tool rack on the workbench and packing everything in the box. A check list of what is needed for an exhibition is very useful. There have two occasions in the past when bits for Pulborough were forgotten which needed an 80 mile round trip to collect.

Terry Bendall

[Andrew Ullyott]

Yep. I have a blue plastic box that all the bits and pieces, extension cables, lighting controllers, lever frame and panel go in. All the bolts, mugs, you name it. It's a bit on the heavy side but as it has a lid it can be used an an emergency fiddle yard cassette storage shelf when come exhibitions don't provide the table requested for this purpose.
Haven't considered making boxes to put the layout in up to now but am considering for the next project...

[Mark Tatlow]

A fairly big day in Glenmutckin’s life today; the start on baseboards.

As I mentioned in the last post; a couple of my team who help on Portchullin made the mistake of both criticising my carpentry skills and then admitting that they ran a joinery business. I guess you can see that they thus talked their way into a task and we spent day one in doing these today.

I know that a bad workman blames their tools; but by god having all the proper kit makes things much faster and a great deal more accurate!! To say nothing of someone who knows rather more about joinery than I do!!

The intended design will be predominantly open design around a skin of ply. Initially a rectangular box is being made, as above. After we have made the first batch of these we will then laminate a further layer of ply around this to provide the material to support the raised scenery and also to house the rebates for the pattern makers dowels – when we have done it hopefully the pictures will make it more clear.

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We got three of these boxes made today; here are two of them – what is particularly pleasing is that they are perfectly level across the joint (see the bit of timber laid across the joint). This is an area that I really did not get right on Portchullin and I note that lots of other modellers don’t either – right up to the famous person modelling Leamington Spa.

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So thanks Tim and Julian – I am sure some signals can work their way back!

And a small plug for my hosts; if you are looking for a powered loft ladder; give them a try http://www.st-joinery.co.uk/electriclof ... tAodjCQAcw

[DougN]

Mark access to Joiners equipment will make putting these things together so quick and accurate. If I recall the accuracy of the saw is to with in 0.5mm.

I have a number of contractors I use now have moved to the new CNC joinery saws. One day I am going to give them a design and say go off and do it for me! That machinery is so good it could cut the dowel holes for you! any how the boards look great and I look forward to what goes on top!

[Terry Bendall]

I will give you an A grade for woodwork Mark, or perhaps it should go to your assistants.

Looks like birch plywood to me. What thickness did you use?

If I recall the accuracy of the saw is to with in 0.5mm.

Probably. Depends on the quality of the machine, how it has been maintained and set up. Although machines make such jobs easier and quicker, you still need the skill to use it correctly. Setting the machine accurately to cut the strips to length and width still depends on accurate measuring and cutting to the line.

Terry Bendall