Glenmutchkin - A Bit of a Slip Up

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:49 pm

Hello Everyone
I've only just come across this thread so apologies for being rather behind in this response.

Like Mark I'm also about to use the computer D connectors for point and signal power (I'm using Megapoint electronics and servos) but for track power to use DIN sockets and plugs. Can anyone tell me if the DINs are ok at taking the track current? The track power is provided by my old ZTC 511 plus handhelds and from memory the transformer is 5 amps.

Many thanks
Andrew

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:38 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:One Amp is plenty for points and signals as Mark is using it. There is no need for the DCC power to be fed from the control panel.
Regards


I am only using these connectors for the junction between the control panel and the baseboards. I am using amphenol connectors for the baseboard joints:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/24-PIN-INDUST ... SwgmJXwwQq
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Amphenol-26-4 ... Swa-dWi-8X

These are military grade (and bl**dy expensive if you buy them new) but very durable and chunky.

One word of warning about the connectors I used for the control panel. The really big one; 44 way, had three banks of pins. I found that I flooded solder on a few of these and merged them into one blog of solder that I could not remove. I would not go this large again therefore.
Mark Tatlow

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:40 pm

Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:Hello Everyone
I've only just come across this thread so apologies for being rather behind in this response.

Like Mark I'm also about to use the computer D connectors for point and signal power (I'm using Megapoint electronics and servos) but for track power to use DIN sockets and plugs. Can anyone tell me if the DINs are ok at taking the track current? The track power is provided by my old ZTC 511 plus handhelds and from memory the transformer is 5 amps.

Many thanks
Andrew


Andrew,

I think there will be a number of different ratings for different quality of DIN sockets. These ones from RS are rated at 5 amps, which will be plenty for you.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/connector ... onnectors/
Mark Tatlow

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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:25 am

Hello Mark
Thanks for the reply and the link, much appreciated.
Andrew

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Mark Tatlow
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Glenmutchkin - Nothing to See Here

Postby Mark Tatlow » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:48 pm

Well, that’s true of the top side, where nothing visible has happened of late but there is progress when you look underneath.

I have spent more than a few hours soldering dropper wires on about half of the track that has so far been laid. All is neatly colour coded (hopefully).

IMG_3195.JPG


Another development in comparison to Portchullin is the painting of the entirity of the underside of the layout white. This is to make everything clearer and brighter. It will, hopefully, make it easier to deal with issues with the layout set up – although I am hopeing for less issues!

Even more hours (weekends even!) have been spent making up jumper connections, so hopefully the wiring will speed up in the coming weekends! I have spent this time to work through the logic of the wiring across all boards and there is a full wiring schedule in place – none of the wonky logic on Portchullin this time!

IMG_3184v2.JPG
Mark Tatlow

junctionmad
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby junctionmad » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:04 am

In my new layout under construction , Is DCC with MERG CBUS layout bus. I have only 6 wires from board to board. DCC , 12V and can bus. Yet it will support servo points and signals , and track circuits. I set out on a mission to reduce wiring

I use XLR as the inter board connectors. I also mount all the wiring etc on the vertical edge of the baseboards

I can't imagine using 44 pin military connectors ( that's brings me back ) , these usually need specialist crimpers etc.

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:26 am

Whilst it is a question of each to its own, I steered away from a CBUS system as I felt that if I did not understand truly how it worked and needed to make it (only the MERG system was around when I made this decision) then I was going to get myself in trouble!

I see DCC to be a little different as this is very much a proprietary system and I do not need to make it!

What I would caution you about though is the need for power districts so that you don't trip the whole layout if you run across a crossing the wrong way (which trust me you will!). I will be seeking to use car headlight bulbs as my power district breakers - I have seen it is use and it is wonderfully simple & effective.

Thus, I have five power districts on the DCC system (ten wires), four for signal bells, four for block instruments (there will be two, branch & main), two for general power, four spares across the whole (which I might use for ambient sound) and then the rest is signal/turnout operation. I accept this is not "state of the art" but may well be the "state of my art!"
Mark Tatlow

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PeteT
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby PeteT » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:47 am

junctionmad wrote:I can't imagine using 44 pin military connectors ( that's brings me back ) , these usually need specialist crimpers etc.


Amphenol do a selection of pin types, which cover solder buckets as well as crimped options. But yes, they are an expensive option if purchased new!

junctionmad
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby junctionmad » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:32 am

Mark Tatlow wrote:Whilst it is a question of each to its own, I steered away from a CBUS system as I felt that if I did not understand truly how it worked and needed to make it (only the MERG system was around when I made this decision) then I was going to get myself in trouble!

I see DCC to be a little different as this is very much a proprietary system and I do not need to make it!

What I would caution you about though is the need for power districts so that you don't trip the whole layout if you run across a crossing the wrong way (which trust me you will!). I will be seeking to use car headlight bulbs as my power district breakers - I have seen it is use and it is wonderfully simple & effective.

Thus, I have five power districts on the DCC system (ten wires), four for signal bells, four for block instruments (there will be two, branch & main), two for general power, four spares across the whole (which I might use for ambient sound) and then the rest is signal/turnout operation. I accept this is not "state of the art" but may well be the "state of my art!"


Nice

to avoid running district DCC across Baseboards , I have decided to make each board a district or two districts , while this means I loose parallel tracks on the board , it does mean I can isolate a ocation of a short, quickly. It would be preferable to isolate by running lines , but that means carrying the district cutout through the board interconnections and that breaks my 6 wire rule.

I have block bells planned but again this will be over CBUS. Track circuit detection is also planned and again contained by baseboard and connected together logically to make a single track circuit

as I write cbus software for my new cbus IO ( CAN_YAIOB ) , ( yet another IO board ) , I have no issue with. Cbus knowledge

There is no doubt that using a layout bus , removes huge amounts of wiring

I still of course have yet to build my 80 lever frame ! To control all this

allanferguson
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby allanferguson » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:36 pm

I appreciate the sophistication of all this, though the technicalities rather pass over my head! But a wee warning light came on with the mention of baseboard joints.
Very many years ago we took our first layout to Scalefour North. All went well until the sun came out in the afternoon, when everything shorted. That's when we realised that the chap who wired up the fiddleyard (which had a baseboard joint in the middle) had used the baseboard joint as an insulation joint for all the fiddle roads.........

Allan F

DougN
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby DougN » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:23 am

Mark, I have a back to the future question. Way back on page 2 you/ your brother was modifying the trestles from (alright I didn't see where you purchased them from) Wickes/ Lidl/Aldi et al. Finally I have found them here in Australia, having arrived at Aldi. I am curious as I have started to think (alright alright I Know I shouldnt do it! ;) ) about my P4 modelling and actually having a small layout operational so I can test and build things. This is to use up all the P4 bits and peices I have collected over the years and stop me buying more things until some thing is running!!!! Ok back to the question... how have you found the modified/ original trestles Do they work well? is the height correct? I see they go from 800 to 1300 high what is your thoughts would you use them again?

Thanks

Doug (who is finnally happy with a single slip he built!)
Doug
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Re6/6
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby Re6/6 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:45 pm

Doug,

We have used them for our large Balcombe layout to very good effect as far as we're concerned. We lay the baseboards on 25mm² mild steel tubing which rest on the tops of the trestles both drilled for M6 C/S bolts which are merely dropped in place. This gives a quickly assembled and robust 'undercarriage'. In fact we (Rod and me) plus DRAG have a quantity of them which we'll be using for the group's rebuild of Bodmin and any other member's project who might like to use them.

If widening is needed we use 20mm² mild steel tube which slides easily through the trestle tops which are 25mm². If the height adjustment isn't fine enough it's an easy job to re-drill holes for the support pins.

For the five curved scenic boards we don't use the mild steel tubes but 'H' shaped longitudinal wooden adapters laid on the trestle tops and the boards are fitted with pattermakers dowels, bolted tight and rest on the adapters.

All in all, they're relatively cheap, adjustable, robust and quick to assemble. Why bother with all that carpentry.......!
John

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:32 pm

Hi Doug,

The trestles that I used were by Draper. I did initially buy a cheaper set off the interweb but I found that these were a bit more flimsy than I thought was sensible. Thus, this set of trestles in the garage doing what they were originally designed to do!

I am very pleased with the technique that I have adopted - that of using beams supported on the trestles with a modification to the trestle to allow it to be height adjustable. The best pictures of this can be seen in April and September 2014 posts on this thread. The reason I like the approach is that it is possible to set the supports/beams up in advance of mounting the board, get them nice and level and then the boards can be placed on them - still with their end protection on - and then quickly assemble them.

The cutting and shutting of these trestles is only necessary due to the size of the layout, so I doubt that you will need to do this but I would still suggest the height adjustment bolts/brackets as this is a good idea I think.

So yes, do give it a spin would be my advice.
Mark Tatlow

DougN
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby DougN » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:32 pm

Thanks Mark and RE6/6 I will have to drop down to Aldi and get a set or 3. Your right at $30AUD or about 18quid they are cheaper and I think more easily stored/ transported and stable than any thing i could make and be adjustable! :thumb
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

junctionmad
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby junctionmad » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:40 pm

DougN wrote:Thanks Mark and RE6/6 I will have to drop down to Aldi and get a set or 3. Your right at $30AUD or about 18quid they are cheaper and I think more easily stored/ transported and stable than any thing i could make and be adjustable! :thumb


Search amazon for " trestles " , large assortment at prices similar to Aldi etc.

DougN
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby DougN » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:05 am

Minor problem with Amazon they only really do books to Australia at the moment, but the situation is to change in the next few months once they start selling every thing!

WE have Bunnings which should have stocked this type of tool but they have yet to do so. No doubt in the future they will but currently I have only seen them at Aldi.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Terry Bendall
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:32 am

DougN wrote:The trestles that I used were by Draper


I have four of these that are looking for a good home. Send me a PM if interested and they could be collected at Scaleforum.

Terry Bendall

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:36 am

If Doug wasn't in Melbourne, and they would be in excess of my baggage allowance I'm afraid.
Regards

DougN
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby DougN » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:52 pm

Thanks for the thoughts Terry. As Keith has mentioned yes I would take up the offer but I can't just pop round and pick them up. It is just a little too far! :shock:

I could not ask Keith to pop them in his carry on! I think I would be better for me to just buy them here at Aldi! :thumb
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DougN
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Control Freak

Postby DougN » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:19 pm

A bit of a follow up. Due to the lack of finance I missed the trestles at the local Aldi to home but finally managed to check out the local Aldi to work which still had them 2 weeks after the "weekly" special ended. In fact discussing the situation at work we believe that Aldi is the final dumping ground to weekly specials as it has some items a long time after they were released!

So far I am impressed with the stability and strength of them. I have even wondered if the anti slip off tags that rotate at the ends of the support could be made to locate and hold a baseboard. So I am happy with them so far and I know where they can live in the garage!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - A Bit of a Slip Up

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:50 pm

I have been continuing with the wiring of Glenmutchkin, but have hit a snag; one that I should have been ready for – the wiring of the slip,  I had been aware that a diamond crossing was a challenge to wire and I was suckered into thinking that the switches on a slip could over come the challenge,  Well I go that wrong…….!!

The basic problem is that there are a choice of two routes through a diamond crossing and each route requires the polarity of the crossings to be different.  The diagram below, which shows how a diamond crossing needs to be wired, should illustrate the problem.  The only solution to this is to power the crossing polarity by way of an approach turnout – if you really don’t have one to set the polarity with, then you are going to have to resort to some switches – but at least it will give you a good excuse to interlock the diamond crossing with some signals to remind you on which direction it is set!

Crossing Wiring.jpg


Hopefully this is clear that the crossings on the diamond crossing are activated by detecting the direction of the switch on the approach turnout.  If it is set for straight ahead, then a train can’t travel over the crossing and therefore the parallel line can so the polarity of the crossings are set accordingly.  Conversely, when the approach turnout is set to the branch, the line across the diamond can be used and the polarity is set to suit.

The principal with the diamond crossing needs to be heeded when the crossing is replaced with a single slip as I have, but it does get more complicated because the switch of the slip can also lead to a different route through the crossings.  The crossing to the left of the slip is the more straight forward as it is only activated by the approach turnout.  However the right hand crossing is more complicated as if the approach turnout is set for the branch then it always needs to be in the red polarity whereas if the approach turnout is set for the main, then it then needs to be controlled by the slips switch.

Slip Wiring v2.png


Hopefully the diagram above shows how this works.

The irritation I have, in addition to having wired it up wrong already (!) is that the approach turnout is on a different board to the slip.  To reduce the number of wires crossing the boards, I have decided to simply use a duplicate point motor for the approach turnout located on the same board as the slip.  It is expensive but rather more simple than the additional wires.

I am pleased that I don't have a chain of slips on the layout; I reckon they would bust my head working out how to wire them!
Mark Tatlow

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Russ Elliott
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Re: Glenmutchkin - A Bit of a Slip Up

Postby Russ Elliott » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:02 pm

Is there a reason why you are not powering the slip from its middle?

FCA
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Re: Glenmutchkin - A Bit of a Slip Up

Postby FCA » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:39 pm

Take a look at the P4 Manual 4.1.8.(10). You seem to have one switch too many.
If you don't have the P4 Manual let me know and I'll send you a copy.

Richard

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - A Bit of a Slip Up

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:08 pm

In my last post recounted the difficulties that I was encountering correctly wiring up a slip and the technique I had arrived at to overcome this,  This precipitated various bits of advice including an alternative approach provided by Richard (FCA).

Richard’s solution is certainly a little easier than my approach to wire and does not need an additional point motor to run the extra switching required.  It is, however, slightly less idiotproof in use than my version – this is because once the approach turnout is set for the branch in my version, the whole of the run was also set electrically.  On  Richard’s version, it is also necessary to decide whether the main line to yard is to be set for the yard.

This is what it looks like as a wiring diagram and it is important to note that the approach turnout (A) is also operating one of the slip’s switches too.

Slip Wiring v3.jpg


My get my soldering iron out now, so I can then start to play trains!
Mark Tatlow

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Glenmutchkin - A Bit of a Slip Up

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:53 am

With this simplified wiring you need interlocking between A and B so that A is released by B. easily achieved by using a 3 way switch if you are not planning an interlocked frame.
Are you not using DCC? If so then yellow can be replaced by red and green by blue(Unless on different boosters or circuit breakers). This will allow reduction by one switch contact in the diamond crossing case but not in the simplified slip case.
Regards


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