Glenmutchkin - Putting a Backbone into a Goods Shed

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Mark Tatlow » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:51 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:I will give you an A grade for woodwork Mark, or perhaps it should go to your assistants. :)

Looks like birch plywood to me. What thickness did you use?


.................mostly to my assistant I would have to admit!

Yes, it is birch ply and the perimeter is in 6mm and the internal braces in 4mm. I mentioned that we would be laminating onto this with formers for the ground levels (which will include preformed holes for pattern makers dowels) which will be 4mm. What I am describing will be more clear in the next photos, hopefully.

Tim (my assistant) reckons to be able to build to 1/2mm and certainly, when it came to gettign these square, we stopped when we thought we were at this level of accuracy!

Somewhat of an improvement on my previous efforts!
Mark Tatlow

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Mark Tatlow » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:55 pm

DougN wrote:I have a number of contractors I use now have moved to the new CNC joinery saws. One day I am going to give them a design and say go off and do it for me! That machinery is so good it could cut the dowel holes for you! any how the boards look great and I look forward to what goes on top!


Hi Doug,

If I had not had the offer from my friends with the workshop, I was quite likely to go down this route (with a CNC router).

One of my problems, when it comes to joinery, is that I do not have a big flat workbench or even patio (and I would not get away with using the kitchen floor for long.....). I was thus tempted with the Brilliant Baseboards concept of interlocking longitudinal and cross pieces as once they have been cut to size, they slot together to give a proper flat surface. The idea needed refining for my use, but has been superceded by having the proper machinary available - albeit at the price of some signals in return!
Mark Tatlow

Natalie Graham
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Natalie Graham » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:15 pm

Good to see that what I presume is an end loading dock has made an appearance on the track plan. The goods yard of two sidings and an end loading dock always seems such a typical feature of smaller HR stations.

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:27 pm

Natalie Graham wrote:Good to see that what I presume is an end loading dock has made an appearance on the track plan. The goods yard of two sidings and an end loading dock always seems such a typical feature of smaller HR stations.


Hi Natalie

The dock you are probably seeing is in fact a bay platform, based on the Lybster bay at Wick. Beside it is an end loading dock and cattle dock, based on that at Thurso (I think Wick had one too).

The sidings behind the station will have a slightly raised island between them too, which was a feature of both Wick and Thurso. There will be an end loading dock there too, I suspect!
Mark Tatlow

Natalie Graham
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Natalie Graham » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:27 pm

I was referring to the short siding that branches off beneath the figure 2 in your track diagram. That isn't a bay platform, is it? It seems to have been a feature of many Highland stations that the goods yard had two sidings with a raised bank with an end dock in between them.

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:36 pm

Natalie Graham wrote:I was referring to the short siding that branches off beneath the figure 2 in your track diagram. That isn't a bay platform, is it? It seems to have been a feature of many Highland stations that the goods yard had two sidings with a raised bank with an end dock in between them.


Aghh; that one!

I agree it is a feature of several Highland termini (Aberfeldy springs to mind) but I doubt that I will make a bank there as the goods shed will tend to block access to it (however, I will bear in mind what you have said when I set it out in full size and take another look).
Mark Tatlow

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:51 pm

I managed to get most of another day in Tim & Julian’s joinery workshop. With the assistance of Tim, we managed to get the three boards assembled with pattern maker’s dowels; along with the beginnings of the ground profiles.
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A start was also made on the last of the four boards that will form the main station area. I didn’t want an ordinary square board on the corner as the layout will be viewed both front on and from the end. Therefore, we have had to profile the corner piece around a mould.
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But all this help does have a price……………………. Tim and Julian have recently acquired Benfieldside. This rather exquisite layout was built by Martin Wright and was subsequently owned by John James. If you want to see how good it is, find yourself MRJ 38 and you will see what I mean!

Over the years, the layout has suffered some damage so it is going to need to be restored. This is where the use of Tim and Julian’s joinery shop ceases to be free – there are a number of damaged signals and even more that are missing altogether. My brief is restore those that still exist and to set them up for servo operation. Here are the first three; all of which have different issues.
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This one has a shattered post and is missing its access gantry/ladder. In addition, the signal arm has become detached and as the signal is slotted (ie the arm is within a slot in the post), this is going to be quite difficult to fix in situ.
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This one also suffers from problems associated with the slotting – when Martin made this he only used lattice work for the front and back in order to provide a slot for the arm. This however has made the signal very weak. In addition, the gantry and ladder are missing.
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One of the arms us detached from its operating arm, its ladder and finial are also missing.

Fortunately, the North Eastern used Mackenzie & Holland as their signal suppliers as well as the Highland. Therefore, I will get to use my etches! Anyway, the signals have been stripped and restoration has started; a post next week will show how they are coming along.
Mark Tatlow

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:34 am

I managed to get most of another day done on the baseboards at Tim & Julian’s workshops. The bulk of the first four are now done; although the decks are still to be put on these. A slightly fuzzy picture to show the progress is below:

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Overall view of boards 1, 2, 5 & 6

In addition to this, I had a look at their layout Benfieldside. As noted in past posts, they have recently acquired this from John James, who was the custodian of it for some years. Its original builder was John Wright.

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Station buildings from overbridge
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Station from other angle
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The yard
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Town scene
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quite platform scene
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Town scene

A great layout; I think anyway! I believe John is still a member although his interests are now across the pond these days I hear; so John I hope you like seeing your work reappearing!

I have managed to restore the first two signals – well entirely rebuild one! I will post some pictures in the next few days with a bit of luck.
Attachments
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A tram on the high street
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:22 pm

I have not seen Benfieldside before. Very nice indeed. Is it P4?

Terry Bendall

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:08 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:I have not seen Benfieldside before. Very nice indeed. Is it P4?

Terry Bendall


Sorry Terry, it is EM.

It appeared in MRJ 38; so there are some more piccies there. Whilst it has suffered a little damage over the years, only a little - so it will be restored.
Mark Tatlow

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Andy W
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Andy W » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:34 pm

You can feel the love that's gone into it. Marvellous.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:33 pm

I have been putting some more work into the supports for the baseboards this weekend.

Rather than go for adjustable feet, I have elected to make the junction between the beam and the trestle adjustable. This was achieved fairly simply utilising a pair of bolts let into the cross member of the trestles that support a plate that is clamped between a pair of nuts. The beam will be secured to the plates and can be moved up and down easily by adjusting the setting on the two nuts. These pictures should illustrate what I mean:

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Simple enough idea, but I went for M10 bolts because I wanted to be sure they did not get bent or broken as these components are moved around. This meant that there was some biggish drilling and cutting to do – so much so that I broke three drills (two of which were 10mm so fairly chunky) and melted my Black & Decker! Not quite such a cheap solution as I had in mind but this is what was created:
Mark Tatlow

DougN
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby DougN » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:38 am

That is some serious engineering. I guess you have tack welded the bolts to the underside to stop rotation?

To break a 10mm drill is a good effort.... As you have mentioned the ol' black and decker is a bit dead... Some times you need some serious grunt behind the drill... (says some one who managed to over heat a Makita 18V brand new cordless!... only a little blue smoke.. but the drill still goes!)

I have been impressed by the level of metalwork you are putting under the layout... a simple light and effective method for having a good foundation.

Shame is we don't get those tressals here in Australia.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:47 pm

Hi Doug,

I am not sure the legs are going to be that light - there is a fair amount of metal in them! However, as they only need to be folded out on the floor and loaded in the back of the van, I am not too worried about this. The boards are a different matter as they need to be lifted into place, relatively carefully.

I would be surprised if you can not get something similar down under. They are called either builder's trestles, folding trestles or adjustable metal trestles. Draper manufacture the ones I have used but there are unbranded immitations.
Mark Tatlow

DougN
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Cutting and Shutting

Postby DougN » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:55 am

Yes we do get some of the bits and pieces that you get in the UK. Our local warehouse's (well there is "Bunnings" and "Masters") all buy things on the cheap from china. Australian hardware is a strange combination of UK (European) and US tools. I try to avoid the places as they both seem to annoy me no end... But this is also part of my day job. Some are great value... others well... umm. Yes there is good quality but you have to be careful and know what you are buying. examples of Makita power tools being one where they have 2 items which look exactly the same but are quite different specifications! Any how no I have not seen those here... yet.

I have heard that Aldi has some of these things but I rarely go into one... built one 8 years ago but even then never went inside once it opened!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Baseboards coming along

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:58 pm

Tim and Julian’s business (electric loft ladders if you need one - http://www.st-joinery.co.uk/) has been doing rather well so far this year, which has meant that they have not had time to accommodate me at their joiners shop and hence baseboard construction has been slow. However, I did manage to get down today and we have got the first four boards quite close to finished.

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This view will look straight at the train shed, with the bay to the right (it does come onto the nearest board; this is a bit not yet done. The remainder of the platforms be to the right and the goods yard will be behind the trainshed/platforms.

If you want to be reminded of the trackplan, it can be found here https://highlandmiscellany.com/2013/01/

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Tim and Julian look on the four boards and give them a comparison for size. The overall depth is 1200m deep and the length of the boards in visible is 2.6m. This view would be from the bridge (see the trackplan links), looking back over the yard and the end of the platforms. The ground will be raised here, but falling away to the left.

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A view from the buffer stops, well it would be but you wouldn’t be able to see them for the end of the trainshed. The ground will slope down substantially to the right and be above rail level to the left.

I hope to get these four boards finished in my next visit and also the beams that they will sit on (and will be attached to the legs already made).
Mark Tatlow

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - First Four Boards Complete

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:02 pm

Julian and I have been putting a bit more time in on the baseboards, to the point where the first four are complete with the exception of their varnishing/painting.
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You will also see in the pictures that the beams that support the boards have also been completed. These span between the brackets that were shown in an earlier post which in turn are supported by bolts that have been affixed to the builders trestles.

This means that each point of contact can be adjusted for both overall level and also cant. The idea is that this is done prior to placing the boards on the beams, so that the whole thing can be levelled as one and the boards then just get plonked on. So long as the floor is not too wonky (like that in Tim & Julian’s place!), this does not take long and it is very idiot-proof assembling the layout perfectly each time.
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Also visible in the views are the gallows brackets that will support the lighting and facia. These are fairly meaty as they have to span over 1300mm from front to back, so the moment on them is quite high. What we have just found is that they are a tad low due to the beans being a bit higher than I had expected. A bit of adjustment will be required in due course; especially as the layout level is also a bit high.

But the acid test of the new boards is shown in this view. On Portchullin one of the problems is that the boards rise up slightly at the joints – a problem I see a lot on layouts. This is dead flat; so we won’t see the trains doing any Casey Jones runs over the mountain ranges!
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The next visit will get on with the last two boards, which will take up the rather obvious space where Julian is working. These will only be a single width in size as the boards are tapering in to 700mm wide at the end on the left in the view below. To give a sense of scale, the yellow spirit level is 1200mm and the dark one 750mm. (see Mr Ullyot – two spirit levels now………..)
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So thanks again to Tim & Julian and if any of readers are looking at electric loft ladders; give them a call. S&T Joinery.
Mark Tatlow

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John McAleely
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Re: Glenmutchkin - First Four Boards Complete

Postby John McAleely » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:20 pm

Mark Tatlow wrote:You will also see in the pictures that the beams that support the boards have also been completed. These span between the brackets that were shown in an earlier post which in turn are supported by bolts that have been affixed to the builders trestles.


How are the beams constructed, and how do they join up underneath the span of the layout?

beachboy
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Baseboards coming along

Postby beachboy » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:42 am

Mark,

What make of Alignment Dowels do / will you use ?

I bought a stash years ago from the EM Soc. and re-used them. They are a tight perfect fit.
I recently bought and returned some that had play up to 0.5mm between the male and female, from another source.
The comment made that no one's complained before. But if ones new / not purchase these before, would they know as to what they should expect.

A thought on varnish. Water based types sit on the wood surface and scrape off. Whereas a wood stain, or others soak into the wood, and more permanent, but can take up to a week to cure.

Steve.

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - First Four Boards Complete

Postby Mark Tatlow » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:29 am

John McAleely wrote:
How are the beams constructed, and how do they join up underneath the span of the layout?


The beams are formed of a pair of sides of 4mm birch ply and then the head/base are of 19mm ply. In all cases the components are cut on the big bench saw (visible in the background of the last picture) but the act of assembling them does not result in a perfectly square box section. Therefore, once the glue had gone off, they were returned to the bench saw to have a skim taken off the top and bottom. This gets perfectly parallel and square tops/bottoms.

The brackets, minus the beams, can be seen in the 27 April posting further up this page. In essence, there are bolts that have been welded upright on the builders trestles. The bracket is just a piece of angle iron with holes corresponding with the bolt positions that is screw fixed onto the underside of the beam. It is gripped by a pair of nuts and if a height adjustment is required, the nuts can be moved up and the bracket + beam will move up too. It took a bit of time to get this right on the first set up, as there are quite a lot of points of contact to be adjusted, but I am expecting it to be better in the future as floors are normally moderately level (the Mole Barn excepted!).

I have not got any pictures of the brackets insitu, but will take some to illustrate this answer when I am next down with Tim/Julian.
Mark Tatlow

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Baseboards coming along

Postby Mark Tatlow » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:41 am

beachboy wrote:Mark,

What make of Alignment Dowels do / will you use ?

A thought on varnish. Water based types sit on the wood surface and scrape off. Whereas a wood stain, or others soak into the wood, and more permanent, but can take up to a week to cure.

Steve.


Hi Steve,

I have used proper pattern maker's dowels from C&L. You can see the mounting points for these in the third picture.

They are a perfect and tight fit. So much so that we have had an issue with the joint that is shown in the third picture. The boards are two deep upto this point (as can be seen) but it reverts to a one board wide board from here on in. This means that the two boards must be perfectly aligned and tight to allow the next board to be installed. Even a very very slight slackness on the securing bolt allows the boards to open sufficently for the next board no longer to fit. Thus, the C&L pattern maker's dowel gets my vote!

This issue also reared its head on the board with a smoothed off corner on it. It is not possible to insert the board as a single; it has to be first united to he other front board and then they have to be slotted in together. This has become a sufficent issue that we have ditched the pattern maker's dowel from the front corner board to the rear as no trackwork crosses it. I also have the advantage that the whole of this joint is going to be masked by the platform and the station roof, both of which will be detachable, and that levels are pretty much defined by the board sitting on the beam in the first place.

The varnish to be used will be solvent based. In reality it is only there to seal the wood and to enable other stages to happen.
Mark Tatlow

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Will L
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Re: Glenmutchkin - First Four Boards Complete

Postby Will L » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:09 pm

Mark Tatlow wrote:Also visible in the views are the gallows brackets that will support the lighting and facia. These are fairly meaty as they have to span over 1300mm from front to back, so the moment on them is quite high. What we have just found is that they are a tad low due to the beans being a bit higher than I had expected. A bit of adjustment will be required in due course; especially as the layout level is also a bit high.


As one who isn't that enamoured by the letter box style of layout presentation, I'd haver said "a tad low" was an underestimate. Particularly given the depth of the layout. While I agree it's nice to be able to see trains travelling at eye level, I've always though that this was fine for plain line, preferably on an embankment, but you looses something on a layout with a number of parallel tracks, like at a station, if you can't also enjoy the panoramic view.

But then that's just my personal view, its your train set.
Last edited by Will L on Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

Andrew Ullyott
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Re: Glenmutchkin - First Four Boards Complete

Postby Andrew Ullyott » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:41 pm

Mark Tatlow wrote:(see Mr Ullyot – two spirit levels now………..)
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Yeah, yeah. I'm still not convinced you've got a licence to use them!
Seriously, the baseboards look very impressive. Puts mine to shame (and the greater majority of others too I suspect).
Strangely enough, I have settled on a similar system for my next layout. I must get round to putting a photo on here at some point.
Just a thought on fascia/ lighting rigs; I don't know what you're thinking of doing, but strip LEDs weight next to nothing...

Terry Bendall
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Baseboards coming along

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:09 am

One small point - I can see the dowel pin positions but it looks like the holes for the bolts have not been made yet. It might be worth while making these as close to the track bed as possible. On the now retired London Road we found that the joins in the track on the viaduct were difficult to get tight because the bolts were at "ground" level. However getting to them after the viaduct walls were in place would have been impossible. Just a thought.

Terry Bendall

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jim s-w
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Re: Glenmutchkin - Baseboards coming along

Postby jim s-w » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:55 am

Good work chaps

For some reason I just can't read the title as anything other than Glenmunchkin. It keeps making me think of Scottish hobbits! :)

Jim


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