1st P4 layout - Endex

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:15 pm

Thanks David. If I could find something similar I'd probably buy some and save myself a lot of bother. I've made some progress and since the last point motor I showed you installed crudelly I've since fitted another 1 in similar fashion and tonight completed the 3rd with a wee bit more sophistication. Just a little bit.

I had a pleasant supprise today to see I and a few others have been graciously published in the Scalefour News 180, even with a special URL made. I'm much honoured, ;)
Who do I thank?? :thumb

A mini update. I haven't wanted to post until I had something substantial to add so here is something marginly...substantial. Sub, more than Stantial...if that even makes sence. (Translation: There could have been more but I haven't done much modelling lately)

Finally submitting and taking the advice of using tubes for rigidity with flexibility (I insist on learning the hard way sometimes - you know for personal fact then) I have cobbled stretcherbar MKIII with copper tubes picked up from Warley, would have prefered brass as they solder better but I got what I could, the design is essentially the same but with the tubes added. I found that it helped a little but was still experiencing some of the problems I had previously. Whilst thinking of a way to retain the horizontal movement of the PCB stretcher bar without the twisting I devised a bodge that seems to have worked. I've seen some peoples methods of using thin wire rod and that may be better than what I tonight came up with, but as experimentation it seems to have worked nicely. Basically it's a 3rd tube for the pivot wire to go in; the pivot wire can still slide up and down but the virtical bracing prevents the PCB stretcher bar from rotating sideways too much as it almost 'locks' it in one plain, yet with plenty of wire play to prevent binding.

This is some of my dropper bars described in earlier posts in the tubes.
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Some PCB stretcher bars with 4 electrical gaps in each. I only used one. Serious TIP: I have found repeatedly that even though I cut several insulation gaps to make sure, electricity insisted on somehow jumping accross. Using a multimeter I think is essential to ensure confidence here. I don't know weather it is copper filings or what but even after opening the gaps out and scrubbing with an old toothbrush it still seems to take a long time before they seems safe to use. Odd.
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Tubes added.
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After some piddeling about I thought up this idea. 3rd tube as described in the text, then later I added a 'capping mushroom' as a due device to A stop the wire going to far and B provide a slight slide plate. Ideally it shouldn't touch the wood but I'd rather not risk things, bit of moistureising cream provided a lubricant! Weather it is suitable or not, or weather it will attract gunk and turn into a brake will be apparent once time has elapsed.
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General impressions of the two turnout motors in place. Currently only wired for mechanical control as the rest will come later.
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I had to cut out a teeny bit of the green adjustment slide to account for the PCB stretcher bar but I'm happy to do that. Avoids all the trouble of installing a wooden block anyway. Does in invalidate the wrarrenty? Erm? Possibly, I'm not bothered anyway.
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That's it for now. Instillation of the 4th and last is going to be a challenge indeed because the point motor needs to go where the bridge will be and that's not going to happen. I'm thinking of possibly making some working overboard scale point rodding and angle cranks for operation. Am I mad and will I need a stiff whisky to accomplish it? Maybe another method is more sane and plausable.
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andrew jukes

Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby andrew jukes » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:13 am

Knuckles

The Exactoscale Tortoise Adaptor Plates will be available again in due course but you might anyway find the information in the instructions for them helpful. They give the dimensions and describe the approach I've used successfully on a fair number of turnouts. See:
http://www.exactoscale.co.uk/downloads/ ... tions1.pdf

Incidentally, I replace the horrible self-tapping screw used to secure the drive wire in the drive moulding with a small piece of rod, drilled right through, turned to be a easy sliding fit in the drive moulding and with a shoulder so the outer end is exactly under the pivot hole. The drive wire then has a right angle bend around 8mm from one end which slips into the drilled hole. Much easier to assemble and take apart. (A picture would help - I'll see if I can manage a photo).

Andrew Jukes

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:42 am

Thanks Andrew. If I ever progress onto the bigger layout idea I might try that baseplate, or if one of these contraptions of mine fail (highly probable!). At the moment I have just one more left to install but can't install it like the others. I think in this situation I am almost forced to use overhead angle cranks and such like. I'll try get pictures later but the ordeal sounds a bother.
And that Tortoise screw......Yeah, what an old boat that is. :? You can almost hear the mechanism protesting as you force it home, I do wander if they will change it to something more suitable.
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:01 pm

Ok, had a small rethink not long after posting the above. Because it seems overhead operation will be harder with angle cranks, rods etc, and researching what to buy and how to install them realistically might awkward, plus other than a few conflicting photographs I know nothing about them, I decided to...err, scratch build some. Makes so much sence. :shock:

So, I know they are likely to be prototypically inaccurate and installed illogically and more like 7 or 10mm/1ft scale but at the moment I'm not whinging. I have actually achieved what I set out to do with less bother than I expected, just asthetically it's a bit on the obese side...and probably wrong. Yet, I'm happy. it looks 'ok', and works. The latter being the main thing and as I've said many times now, operation is my cheif interest at the moment because extra neatness and realism comes with practice and experience. it does have a very small dead zone of movement due to generous clearences but as I say, it works. The trucks are rolling through fine again. I regret having to double up the thickness of rod but the bending forced my hand.

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Foam underlay makes cutting accomodation holes a doddle but I had to raise the height slightly using some scrap Balsa wood - again, easy.

I had a spare stretcher bar. I know these arn't the strongest of things but I'm convinced it'll withhold. One end was trimmed and the other retained and bent into the angle crank. 3 stretcherbars probably isn't correct but oh well.

On the last two pictures it may seem that the point blades arn't touching the stock rails too well. This is becasue a while ago I made a major boob when cutting the wooden webs out of the C&L B6 turnout, things kind of broke and energies flew everwhere bending the point and causing gauge narrowing in a way that was alarming. So I had a lot of pidelling to do. It works though!

You may also notice 2 'Hornby style' clips. I forgot to electrically bond the rails so had to do it the ugly way after it was glued and ballasted. Silly me.

The main rod that is doubled up looks too fat and is, but I had to becasue of bending. Where the pivot wire comes through the board I'm thinking of covering that with a small ground frame or something plus it could have been closer to the tracks as it's slightly diagonal at the moment.

What you think? :)
I think it looks ok considering it's home brew but if I am to do any more overboard gubbins I'd like to buy the correct etches and install them in a realistic logical way. My knowledge of this however is next to none. I've took a few pictures at preserved lines and whatnot but it just looks like a mine of serpents. Supprisingly I have had much less bother making this and getting it to operate than I have with the previous attempts, much to my supprise.

Just need to finish the wiring next. Once that's done I 'should' have a working layout. Oh yeah, I need to buy a DCC system too. :?
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:12 am

As well as above I have another fat post on the way soonish. Almoat finished wiring and the first test last night prooved...'interesting'.
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Paul Willis
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:50 am

Knuckles wrote:As well as above I have another fat post on the way soonish. Almoat finished wiring and the first test last night prooved...'interesting'.


I'm looking forward to another instalment ;-)

Flymo
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:58 pm

Still awaiting the installment due to inevitable Gremlins. Most I have sorted and all will be revealed in due time, but first, can I sctounge some help again? :-\

The single slip wiring isnt right. A proper diagram will help if you could poat ine for use with Tortoises. Someone dud post one a while ago but I cant seem to find it, even in the digest library.

I have wired the frog to the opposite motor as I think is correct.

Sometimes the route set is fine but nostly I have to flick the blades again once a loco has passed them in order to set the polarity of the incomung frog. A ball ache, illogical but functional at slow speeds...just. The other problem is worse as I have to have the incoming blades against the loco so it goes through the first frog and then hope I change the blades quick enough to complete the crossover, not correct!

Please do you know what I have to do to solve this? The single points electrically are fine now and the only trouble shooting needed was to change the switch polarity for visual preference on the panel and to xhange the track power polarity on the motirs so the frigs work. I do need to tweak 1 point as my loco sometimes comes off but forget that for now. Im using DPDT switches for the panel if that helps
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grovenor-2685
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:54 pm

I have wired the frog to the opposite motor as I think is correct.

OK that should be correct, ie the switch on the blades at the left hand end control the polarity of the frog at the right hand end.

Now if you run a train in and it causes a short on the frog then that switch needs the polarity swapped over.

However, note that you cannot have both sets of switches set for straight across the diamond at the same time, as it then becomes a diamond crossing with conflicting polarities and will always short. Set both motors so the slip road is set for a train to run round the curved (slip) road. If this works then your polarity is correct. Then if you set one of the motors for the straight you should be able to run through on the relevant straight route, if you set both for straight then you will get shorts.

NB. Do you have a meter, its quicker to check with a meter that you have volts between the rails all the way through the set route, if no meter a 12V lamp on a couple of bits of wire will do.

I don't have a diagram of a single slip, mostly I get asked about scissors and double junctions but you will find the basic wiring diagram in figure 3 in here http://www.scalefour.org/history/p4wiringsystem.html.

If you need a bit more help I'll do a diagram for you showing all 3 possible states.
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Keith
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:25 pm

Keith, you awesome bloke! I set the curved road, drove the loco and it stalled on a frog, so I switched that polarity and bingo. Everything bar the sometimes derail problem on the top right single point works now. Yay!

Thankyou. :-)
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:35 pm

Good news, save me a bit of drawing ;)
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Keith
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:24 pm

save me a bit of drawing

Well actually I had almost finished, so for the benefit of anyone else, rather than waste it..............
ss1.png

ss2.png

ss3.png

ss4.png
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:35 pm

Ok then here we are, the latest installment. :thumb

Stress & Success

Minues the Dingham auto couplers with electronic magnets that I wish to try, and some ideas on yard / building Lamps; the layout is fully wired and working! Not without a battle though.

As I have stated before, I read several books on model railway electronics and nothing would stick in, conversations with people and diagram studying were mostly fruitless and it's been like that for several years. I was however determined to wire my own layout so things work and so I've persevered. The instructions that came with the Tortoise point motors resulted in much confusion becasue I didn't understand any of it, and if I'm honest still don't - they seem to be written for people with at least 5 brain cells, I however only have 3 when electrics are concirned, and so after I was looking at the S4 page on Tortoise wiring I again rolled into a ball and spent a whole hour and a half arguing with my parents as to the interpretation thereof. It doesn't help when the diagram colours of the DPDT switches are the same as on the Tortoise becaue I couldn't decide weather that meant they had to be joined or weather it meant two seperate power supplies; again, obvious for many, but for electronic Dumbo's like me, an enigma. Thankfully, after crying for help, RobM came to the rescue with a fully brocken down, dummy proof explanation that was to be read in conjunction with the S4 sheet. After studying this it all clicked into place and I subsequently wired the whole layout by myself without again refering to the sheet or any other wiring information.....odd. RobM - Thankyou very much! Maybie your explanation should go in the S4 Digest in conjunction with the diagram.

Also I said this before breifly, but to whoever is responsible, thankyou for publishing me and a few others efforts in S4News 180, I was supprised but very happy to see that, but who to thank?

So anyway, electrics aside, once I had some understanding it wasn't exactly hard, just a case of repeating the same circuits again and again. One thing I will say that I found a tad alarming is the amount of wiring needed for such a small layout, and I wired this with DCC in mind too so no section switches (Operating with 2 DC controllers at the mo, one for points, other for loco).

Initial testing was, 'interesting', 3 out of the 4 switches worked, and after a mini inspection I noticed that I had wired one wire into the wrong terminal block, so that was easily fixed. I had to swap a few switch polarites around for panel preference, but that was easy enough, just swap a few wires around, and I had to do the same for the frog polarites. I struggled with the single slip polarity though so after asking for help Keith kindly responded with the life saver. Just that teeny bit of information helped a great deal and only 2 wires needed swapping to cure it. Namely, "Set the single slip to the slip/curved road first, get those polarities sorted and everything else should fall into place", or words to that effect. Awesome. :)

Building the control panel:

This turned out to be a bit of an abortion effort, I buggered the wood work up and so nothing really fit properly. I bodged it with tacks and glue. :P I made a pigs ear of the hole I was cutting for it too as the Jigsaw veered to the side and made a mess. Future lesson; don't bother cutting holes out that need to be perfect with one of these, maybe a Coping saw or Junior Hacksaw or something would be better as you have more control. I also found out that the DPDT switches I brought didn't fit on the panel becasue the 6mm Ply' was made from three 2mm layers, so I had to...erm...strip a layer off. :? Lots of old fashioned hand graft for an hour or so. SOooooo anyway, I added a thin bit of plastic card to the front and marked the track plan out with insulation tabpe, I didn't have the lining strip thus the uneven thicknesses, but it looks ok for what I'm doing. And one more word that describes my exquisite level of sophistication, the mounting 'bracket' is Bluetack! (This will be replaced with swing locks or something)

I will be adding plugs & jacks to connect the controllers but for testing I'm using the screw terminals...Glued on! I did use a stapel from my gun but seeing as it went right through to the otherside marming the presentation I decided to put that idea in the bin.

Piccies:
Well that was blooming lucky, they only just fit together.
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An enjoyable couple of hours work, all my own design. Works fine as it's essentially daisy chaining but with out the chain, because the feeds and returns are all on their own pads I think 'Lilly Padding' makes more sence. I didn't have the self adhesive copper strip so I used PCB strip cut to size and secured with...you guessed it...bl...no not Blutack, the other one. Super Glue. Full of pinache me. :P
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Basically done, just a couple more needed.
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And temporaraly rigged to the layout with two DCC controllers that represent the two outputs that the DCC system will have. One 12VDC and the other a bit more or whatever..
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This is what the front looks like...
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This is Godzillah causing havok
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And this is my highly asthetic artwork, influenced by spagetti, a mine of serpents and that box of 1980's electronic bits of bobs you found in the loft all tangled together, but it works! Some wires are bare with only 5mm or so inbetween but due to the sprung pressure I'm not worrying about that at the moment.
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One turnout wasn't throwing properly anymore, and so I spent over 5 hours last night getting wound up over it, had to take the whole thing out, fabricate about 3 different TOU's and endured much piddeling about. Eventually I threw asthetics in the bin and decided to just have a horrid old PCB sleeper/stretcher bar do the job instead. This was a bit stiff so I drilled two holes in and simulated Normon Solomon's method without Lace Pins - brass wire bent into a sort of square 'C' chape with one end extended, the long end solders to the rail web, the other is underneither the stretcher and as it's bent gives a locking pin effect. Again, more extreem sophistication that would put the 'EM' creators of 'Liverpool Lime Street Station' to shame!
I thought it was throwing ok until nothing worked, so I got my tester out and yeeees, I shorted the entire layout out...sooooo, I wasted almost 5 hours.

Bedtime.

Morning.

Ok, today I spent about half an hour tweaking again, and this time for some reason it is ironically the best throwing turnout I have now, albeit the ugliest.
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This is just a shot that gives an impression after I was [s]playing[/s] testing.
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Unsure what to say to close this post so I hope you got something out of it, enjoyed it even. I'm happy that apart from couplings I have to some degree a working layout and so it 'might' be safe to recommence some scenic work...or build an engine, or sort the couplings, or...?

I feel I've achieved a lot despite it's humble appearence. I'm happy and supprised I've got this far. Not only have I done this all myself, but electrically it works, I flick a switch and a point changes and that to me is something I've never had the pleasure of save for a few sessions at th emodel railway club. My previous 2 (3 or 4 sortof) layouts didn't work like this does, and to top it off, all in P4. :) Any comments / advice appreciated.
Last edited by Knuckles on Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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doktorstamp
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby doktorstamp » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:55 pm

Knuckles,

If nothing else your sheer determination is, in itself, an inspiration to all. Onwards and upwards.

Seasonal greetings
and kind regards

Nigel

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:33 pm

Thanks, Doktorstamp. I've had over 10, probably more like 15 years of frustrations with model railways. I'll get this one working properly if it kills me! Also future builds. I truly have learnt the hard and expensive way in some areas. Any ideas on how to improve things? Buying a TOU is something I'm interested in I know that. Cobbling up my own is trial and error to the extreem. Accumitavely I must of spent about 12 hours on one point getting it to throw properly.

You may also see many chairs have ran away from home due to the abuse with an iron! Easy to sort out though.
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Paul Willis
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:18 pm

Knuckles wrote:Unsure what to say to close this post so I hope you got something out of it, enjoyed it even. I'm happy that apart from couplings I have to some degree a working layout and so it 'might' be safe to recommence some scenic work...or build an engine, or sort the couplings, or...?

I feel I've achieved a lot despite it's humble appearence. I'm happy and supprised I've got this far. Not only have I done this all myself, but electrically it works, I flick a switch and a point changes and that to me is something I've never had the pleasure of save for a few sessions at th emodel railway club. My previous 2 (3 or 4 sortof) layouts didn't work like this does, and to top it off, all in P4. :) Any comments / advice appreciated.

Well Knuckles, you've been a complete inspiration in 2012 with your enthusiasm and willingness to be open-minded and learn as you go along.

Good luck with the scenery, or the rolling stock, or whatever. Let's just look forward to reading more of it in the future.

Cheers
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:43 am

Thans Flymo :-)


I won't wish you all a happy new year because Im not convinced it's truly the new year, but rather a perpetuated deception...same as Christmas and Easter.....call me whatever you wish.

However, on the converse I do hope you have good days rather than bad! :-D

I have a small question again; does S' E' Finecast's chassis come with P4 frame spacers? I'm talking about the older Bodyline kits. I have my eyeball on one you see. Also I think I might have to cut my own horn guides which is a tad worrying but according to Ian Rice in one of his books he makes it look easy.
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Will L
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Will L » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:52 am

If that's the book I've just been re-reading, he also tells you how to cut your own frame spaces too. So no worries.

Nothing there more difficult than things you've already done.

Will

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:23 pm

Locomotive KIT CHASSIS CONSTRUCTION in 4mm

That's the one. Same? His style in places seems similar to mine, 'less micrometers and more filing back to shape' etc.
His sence of humour makes me laugh too. I'd rather buy spacers than make them but Im guessing the width depends on the thickness of the frame etch.
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:57 pm

I'd rather buy spacers than make them but Im guessing the width depends on the thickness of the frame etch.

Well yes but the spacers on offer tend to err on the narrow side so any difference can be made up with axle washers and you do get a chance to allow some sideplay.
Comet do a set of spacers, and I think Alan Gibson also.
Keith
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MarkS
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby MarkS » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:54 pm

I have a small question again; does S' E' Finecast's chassis come with P4 frame spacers? I'm talking about the older Bodyline kits.


I have the Finecast etched chassis for their "Schools" class, designed in the 1990's it is very nice, with P4 spacers and etched cut outs for the hornguides too.
If the kit you are looking at has the "revised" etched chassis you should be OK. (I had one of the original whitemetal chassis they did in the '60's - it left a lot to be desired...)
Cheers,

Mark.
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:58 pm

Well, it's the Billington 0-6-0 SR 'E2' locomotive I'm thinkkng of having a crack at. Possibly two of them, no prizes for guessing why!
According to what I've read on the website the old Bodyline engines have etched chassis now, available seperately.

I've had a look at Holt Model Railways and to my supprise they have a huge amount of SE Finecase kits on sale for quick card order style. They don't have the chassis I need but they have the E2 and it is £10 cheaper. Does anyone know if it is a good idea to order from Holt? Also SE Finecast's website says they can supply Gibson wheels but they don't specify so does anyone know from experience if they do P4 ones on request or if it's just default 00. If I do have a go at this engine I'll email him to see what motor and gear box he suggests.

Edit: I've seen online photographs of both standard and extended side tanks for SE Finecast's E2 kit. Will both be in the kit or will I have to make my own? :'( The latter option won't be a problem for me but it'd be easier if I don't have to scratch build.
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:52 pm

Post by Knuckles  » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:58 pmWell, it's the Billington 0-6-0 SR 'E2' locomotive I'm thinkkng of having a crack at. Possibly two of them, no prizes for guessing why! According to what I've read on the website the old Bodyline engines have etched chassis now, available seperately. I've had a look at Holt Model Railways and to my supprise they have a huge amount of SE Finecase kits on sale for quick card order style. They don't have the chassis I need but they have the E2 and it is £10 cheaper. Does anyone know if it is a good idea to order from Holt? Also SE Finecast's website says they can supply Gibson wheels but they don't specify so does anyone know from experience if they do P4 ones on request or if it's just default 00. If I do have a go at this engine I'll email him to see what motor and gear box he suggests. Edit: I've seen online photographs of both standard and extended side tanks for SE Finecast's E2 kit. Will both be in the kit or will I have to make my own? :'( The latter option won't be a problem for me but it'd be easier if I don't have to scratch build.


I don't mean to be rude if I am but I'm really hoping for a reply or three because I'm keen to place some orders down but don't want to without the peice of mind your collective experience can give. :(
Last edited by Knuckles on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

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Mostly 3D Printed Loco kits etc.

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Will L
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Will L » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:24 pm

Knuckles wrote:Locomotive KIT CHASSIS CONSTRUCTION in 4mm

That's the one. Same?


Yep

I'd rather buy spacers than make them but Im guessing the width depends on the thickness of the frame etch.


and yes, the book explains exactly how, pages 29/30. It's a good idea to be on top of this,not just for sorting out the frame spacer width, but because it enable you to sort out how much washer width you need to go with. DIY skills required are pretty basic just the sort of first think to take to you to move on from kit building to kit bashing.

Even though this book is twenty years old, its still pretty relevant.

Will

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:39 pm

Ok cool, thanks Will :-)

Does anyone know answers to my quoted post above??
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.com/
Mostly 3D Printed Loco kits etc.

SCC Price list (7/4/22)
https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.co ... e77d42.pdf

Armchair Modeller

Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:03 pm

Knuckles wrote:
Does anyone know answers to my quoted post above??


It is quite possible that no one regularly using this forum has experience of this kit ;)

SE Finecast have been very helpful with enquiries in the past, so may well be the best place to get some of your answers :thumb


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