1st P4 layout - Endex

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:39 pm

I sent an email a while ago but I have that horrable feeling I might be waiting a while. :(
I know theres a chance no one here knows the answer, but if they do I'll be lucky and thus can possibly crack on quicker.

I sent a cheque off the other day for some Dingham auto couplers and three electro magnets. Also I have another wagon built (minus couplings and buffers) and its half painted. Also another wagon half built so will make a wee post in the wagon thread when done.
Oh yeah, just though, I have also finally added tare weight and tonnage transfers to my wagons, albeit Southern in design! They were the only ones I could get and knowing where to put them on a ficticious Northern setting is hard to know, indeed my research shows its hard to know anyway.
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Armchair Modeller

Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:07 pm

Sorry to hear that their response is slow. Best if you see them at a show - they usually have a showcase with a comprehensive range of locos on display.

From my limited knowledge of these kits, my opinion is that the bodyline range is relatively crude by modern standards. I think they originated in the 1960s or early 70s(?) when aspirations were not as high as they are supposed to be today. They were designed to fit over proprietary mechanisms, so the dimensions may not be spot on. They may cater for the wrong wheel size, or wrong wheel spacing, for example.

I have seen some of their much more recent introductions, which I would be more than happy to buy - if only I actually needed those particular locos!

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:38 am

If only there was a show on soon. I'll look onlind see if this Sunday holds anything prominent.

Re chassis, I might be in luck. A friend of mine on another forum has a 00 E2 kit and the chassis is etched-with horn guides cut! I've sent him a message to confirm if its SE Finecast etc.

The white metal body doesvlook a tweak crude but nothing a bit of good modelling, detailing and painting can't sort. :-)
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Paul Willis
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:02 am

Knuckles wrote:Re chassis, I might be in luck. A friend of mine on another forum has a 00 E2 kit and the chassis is etched-with horn guides cut! I've sent him a message to confirm if its SE Finecast etc.

Hi Knuckles,

Even if the hornguides aren't cut out on the kit frames, you are probably worrying over nothing.

My copy of Iain Rice's book is at home so I can't refer to exactly what he says right now. However the easiest technique is to fret out the cut-outs (usually a bit over 6mm wide, I recall) that the hornguides from your chosen supplier such as High Level are soldered into.

Then you don't have to be precise with the cutting out to a fraction of a millimetre, and you can use the slight bit of adjustment when soldering the hornguides into place to make sure that the centres of the exles and the coupling rods all match.

This is the principle behind the various jigs on the market, although it also (and originally) applies to the straightforward use of some jig-axles. You'll find plenty of examples of this technique on here if you have a look.

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 am

Thanks Flymo, horn guide cutting was touched upon in the previous page actually. I think I have the book you mean. I'll refer to your tips if I have to cut them. Yry if my friends chassis is the one I think it is then I'm laughing.

EDIT: Ding ding. Finally I got a reply from my mate who has built one of these E2's, he says the chassis is indeed etched and he has showed me a photograph and the horn guides are cut too. Thus, I have just ordered two E2 kits, and 2 chassis kits from Holt models. Luckily they do the easy transaction method I prefer.

EDIT 2: Just phoned Alan Gibson up and ordered the wheels/axles, sprung buffers, crank pins and some spacers. So when all the bits arrive I'll have a look at the kit and try to decide what gearbox/motor combination I need useing High Level or Comet Model's gearbox planners to work it out. Does anyone have info on suggested motor w/ gearbox?

Thing is I'm scared of buying one blind if it won't fit, or if it's geared unsuitably. Unsure.
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Need a bit of help guys. My Dingham auto couplers arrived today, I've took photographs and will make a mini write up in due time but I'm stuck.

Instructions say (in my own words) "If at all possible make sure the coupling protrudes at least 6mm's from the headstock outwards in line with the buffer heads. The coupler end must be inline with the buffer heads."

Problem is, even with the tabs removed and the coupler sunk as far back as it will go, and even after pulling the buffers out a little bit so that they look odd, it still protrudes about 1mm further than the buffers so really unsure what to do. Plus from headstock to buffer end it's about 5mm's but instructions said "if at all possible" so there might be lee-way, however, it isn't possible in my case with this 1st wagon.

Help please? :? :cry:
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David Thorpe

Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby David Thorpe » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:42 pm

That's a bit strange. I've just started with Dinghams too, and while I have had one or two problems (always of my own making!), this isn't one of them. I don't use sprung buffers (Dinghams don't like them) and all my kit-built wagons have either the buffers they were supplied with or Lanarkshire Models buffers, and in the case of RTR wagons, the buffers they came with. In all cases, without any adjustment from me, the buffers protrude 6mm from the headstock and so the Dinghams are fine. I don't think they'd work properly if they only had 5mm clearance, while if they protruded further than the buffer heads you'd have problems when propelling your train. If I'm right, I think you like sprung buffers and wonder if you're using them here and if they are over retracted? None of my buffers look odd at 6mm, by the way!

Incidentally, if anyone reading this has successfully fitted Dinghams to coaches with corridor connections, I'd be very pleased to know how it's done! My efforts to date suggest that there isn't enough clearance under the corridor connection for the Dinghams to work properly.

DT

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:02 pm

I am using springs but they can be glued solid if nessasary, yet that isnt a proble. as Ive experimented with them poking out the shanks different amounts. The kit is Cambrian C81 if that helps. I dont think its safe to go forward without a solution though.
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:58 pm

Here is some pics, with the question and problem also.

Dinghaps arrived today, this is the fret with the iron and brass rodding at the back.
Image

Pic explain trials and tribulations....
Image

The issue I need solving before I go any further...
Image

Help. :(
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

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David Thorpe

Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby David Thorpe » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:28 pm

I assume that you've got quite a few RTR wagons, although still in 00. How does the length of the buffer on your Cambrian wagon compare with them? And have you still got the buffers that came with the Cambrian kit? If so, how do they compare in length with the sprung ones you've fitted? If, as I suspect, your sprung Cambrian buffers turn out to be shorter and you really feel that you can't lengthen them any more, I'd replace them with the ones that came with the kit, assuming you've still got them. Dinghams prefer unsprung buffers!

DT

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grovenor-2685
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:38 pm

DT said, Dinghams prefer unsprung buffers!
Since the Dingham appears to push by the the loop pushing on the back of the slot in the hook, why does it matter?
Have I got the wrong end of the stick here?

Knuckles,
The 6mm dimenrion is the minimum that any buffer should be when uncompressed, so if your buffers are only 5mm long then there is a problem with either the design or the installation, the depth of the larger hole in the buffer body may be to deep, or if they have separate bushes at the back the bushes are not put in far enough, if they are the unbushed design and have been drilled to deep they can be salvaged by drilling right through then adding the bushes at the back.
Regards
Keith
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Keith
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:53 pm

Guys I think wires are crossed a tad.

The buffer shanks are moulded to the headstocks with the Cambrian kits. The buffer head and necks are added seperately. What Cambrian give you is a horrable thick lump. So I substitute that with Wizard Models / 51L buffer heads. You can push these in as far or as little as you want and the springs are optional so they arn't the issue.

As the buffer shanks are moulded on already I can't 'put them on to short', but they do come with a plastic collar/washer and so with those added it is a little longer but not enough.

Now the Dingham is inserted as far back as is possible, even with the removal of the tabs it mentions, thus the hinged parts are basically rubbing the planks.

Inserting the buffers if set hard can be positioned as far in or out as you want them, it's just they are already maxed out and still it's only 5mm's, because the coupler sticks out 6 I can only guess Cambrians shanks are too shkrt. But I highly doubt that.

Is the issue a little clearer now? I think with what you both wrote understandings of what I meant are skewed, authough I appreciate it. It's a tricky one. :(
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grovenor-2685
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:01 pm

As i said, if the buffers will not project 6mm they are wrong, it may be Cambrian have made the bodies to small or just a case of mismatch with the Wizard heads, but as it is wrong it can only be a design or an installation problem, as I said. It sounds more like a design problem. Best get some buffer bodies to match the Wizard heads so you get the required 6mm.
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Keith
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David Thorpe

Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby David Thorpe » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:16 pm

Keith, Dinghams push buffer to buffer (at least, mine do!) But if the buffers compress, the loops/hooks come into contact and it seems that trouble can then ensue.

Knuckles, I agree with Keith- if your buffers are only 5mm long there is a problem with the buffers. If the coupling is to project 6mm, you will indeed remove the lugs (I have on all my Dingham fitted freight stock) but it's not a good idea for the hinged parts of the Dinghams then to come into contact with the body of the wagon - they've got to be able to move freely. If you can't lengthen the buffers I think you're going to have to replace them. To quote from the Dingham instructions: "If the buffer length is less than 6mm the couplers cannot be made to work properly and the buffers should be replaced with scale-length items".

I've built a couple of Cambrian wagons. I found the buffers rather flimsy and replaced them with Lanarkshire Models ones.

DT

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:49 pm

Ok. What a piddle, that quote is why I've been making such a fuss, and I didn't think the wagon would be an issue but me. I like Cambrian wagon kits but I hope I don't have to change buffers all the time. I'll check out those buffers. What I might do is pull the buffers out to 6mm's and glue them, but then they may look a bit silly.

EDIT: Killy begys on RMweb just said this....

I have just checked all my kit built anf RTR stock and none of them have a buffer projection of less than 6mm. However, if the couplings do project beyond the buffers, don't panic, it will just mean that your stock will not be as close coupled as if they were in line. The couplings will only not work if they don't project as far as the face of the buffers. Hope this helps.


Any thoughts to that?
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:03 am

I have edited the above post, what do you think to the quote?

Also if you have time/interest could you please have a look hete...

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic. ... +couplings

This guy has the sa.e problem as me, especially and moreso with his coaches but his extensive testing seems to proove that it makes no difference. But? Oh I don't know. Any ideas? I'll shut up about it soon, promise!
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David Thorpe

Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby David Thorpe » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:04 am

Knuckles wrote:EDIT: Killy begys on RMweb just said this....
I have just checked all my kit built anf RTR stock and none of them have a buffer projection of less than 6mm. However, if the couplings do project beyond the buffers, don't panic, it will just mean that your stock will not be as close coupled as if they were in line. The couplings will only not work if they don't project as far as the face of the buffers. Hope this helps.
Any thoughts to that?

And the Dingham instructions say: "If the hook is set too far forward, the coupler loop will be pushed against the back of the slot in the opposing hook when propelling and the friction between loop and hook will prevent uncoupling". It also seems to me that if the coupler hook is too far forward, contact when propelling will not be between buffers, as is the case when the Dinghams are fitted in accordance with the instructions, but will be between hooks which may cause derailments when propelling over curves.

I've looked at the 45 posts in the yourmodelrailwaynet thread cited by you and I can't see any suggestion by the OP or anyone else that he'd had the same problem as you. On his coaches the hooks possibly are forward of the (retracted) buffers (although he doesn't mention that), but they are level with the corridor connections which will probably make initial contact when propelling.

Correct positioning of Dinghams is vital for proper application. You seem to be going to an awful lot of time and trouble to find a way of justifying an incorrect set-up when the easy and quickest ways of resolving the problem would either be to adjust your existing buffers or to fit new buffers that would not only work with the Dinghams, but would be correct to scale in their projection.

DT

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:59 am

His thread doesn't say he has the same problem but by looking at the photographs both wagon and coaches it's clear he does. I'm trying yo avoid faffing about buffer changing-I won't deny that no. I can lengthen the buffer a mm in the shank and solve it, yet every RTR buffer I have checked is also too short so I have problems believing they all plus Cambrian are a full 3 inches to short.

I appreciate you taking the time to look at the thread and as promised I'll shut up about it now and make a descision. I just feel strongly that I gather as much info 1st to be sure of whatever option I choose.
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LesGros
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby LesGros » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:51 am

Knuckles,
There is a rather clear illustration in the instructions to be found here. http://www.dingham.co.uk/4mm_inst.htm ; about halfway down the page.
The illustration clearly shows that the point of the hook should not project beyond the buffer face. The expectation of the designer is that the minimum projection of the buffer face is 6mm from the buffer beam. It appears that both your Cambrian, and RTR buffers could be about 3 scale inches too short, as suggested in earlier posts.

Looking at the instructions, it appears the the intention is that when propelling, the point of contact is the buffer, and the buffers show a gap when pulling. If the hook projects too far, then the gap is wider, and when pushing, the propelling contact is through the loop against the back of the the slot. This scenario increases the friction on the loop, potentially preventing a smooth release of the coupling.

It follows that the advice to replace the buffers seems to be the only realistic long term solution to reduce the risk of malfunctioning couplings.
Another consideration, is that this sort of problem illustrates that one cannot always assume that the manufacturer of rolling stock has got the scaling of components entirely correct.
LesG

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never made anything useful

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grovenor-2685
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:28 pm

yet every RTR buffer I have checked is also too short so I have problems believing they all plus Cambrian are a full 3 inches to short.

This comes from rtr using the dreaded tension lock, the buffers are not used and can get in the way on set track corners hence it can help to make them short.
Replacing/modifying buffers comes with scale modelling ;) Note that 6mm (18") is only for unfitted stock with 3 link couplers, fitted stock with screw or instanter couplers have longer buffers.
Keith
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Keith
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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:11 pm

Thanks for your collective advice.

I've had a good think and fiddle and decided upon the temporary idea of pulling the buffers further out of their shanks. But for some reason they don't look as bad as they did when I trialed the option in the first place. Rather perplexing.

So this may be acceptable. I might have a look for replacement buffers in future as there is thankfully a large range.

I've nearly completed this wagon and I have another half done so I can show them later.

Anyone know the best way to use Carrs Metal Black for brass. I brushed it on the couplings and have waited a while but it still has the colour of...well, brass. :D
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Armchair Modeller

Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Armchair Modeller » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:46 pm

Hi Knuckles

Did you clean the brass before you did it? There are often residues from etching that inhibit the blackening process.

Also, I dunk the brass in a container, rather than brush it on. I find it more effective that way. Depends how big the item you are blackening though!

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:23 am

I didn't clean it no! I guess I should have. In future I'll dunk them as you suggested before fitting.

I have another question for anyone in the know.

Instructions say 3 links can only be fitted to hook with type 1 latch -so I have done that and it looks pretty good.
But I am thinking; instead of fitting the soft iron wire to the hook with loop, would steel or iron 3 links work instead?
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David Knight
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby David Knight » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:47 am

Hi Knuckles,

It might, but the length of the dropper is critical to magnetic operation and doing links could be more of a PITA than it's worth as the dropper is hidden behind the buffer beam.

BTW, Davey T was wondering about mixing Dinghams & corridors. I've tried it and TBH I only use them on the ends of rakes. They will work but close coupling is lost and they are much fussier to set up.

HTH

David

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Knuckles
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Re: 1st P4 layout

Postby Knuckles » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:55 am

Ok, thanks for that, davknigh. I'll scrp that idea then. I forgot the droper swings back at 90°s.

Does the dropper have to be fixed or is it supposed to swing freely? Mine swings currently.

I have thought (if I get on with these) that a breakvan should have hook with loops at both ends, then a loco can run around and remove it and put it wherever. I forgot to mention; The reason for the two loops is so the front of the locomotive isnt spoilt in appearence so still uses screw link. Just an idea. Whether it will work in practice is another matter!
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