1st P4 layout - Endex

[RobM]

What is scaring me the most is how to wire the Tortoise point motors. +,- and 1 auxilary to each frog?

Does this help.........http://www.scalefour.org/resources/tortoise-wiring.html

[Knuckles]

Thanks for the advice. It isnt the lack of information regarding how to wire things. I have many books that I have read through and still refer to. Its just when electrics are concerned I'm a grade A bonehead. 98% solid. I am not electrically minded nore have I ever wired a layout. The point motors will have to wait a while as I have not brought any yet.

Basic track wiring is done minus any turnout feeds.

I have a serious problem. I started my first TOU using 0.7mm brass rod soldered to the rail webs through generous holes onto some gapped PCB with a drill hole. Had no sleepers so quickely cobbled up my own.
The problem may only be with this one point because the switch rails are bent ever so slightly upward so whenever I 'operate' the tie-bar with a wire powered by hand the switch blades switch with a rocking arch thus putting the rails in the air somewhat. Is there any way to solve this other than destroying half the point? Also will this method work on the other switch rails that are closer to perfect or am I again accidently making pork scratchings?

3pcs




I really need help with the above as I'm stuck otherwise.

Before the above I finished the track wiring as already said but came across a problem and sorted it. The bus wires were in the way of a proposed point motor. Solved by soldering hollow square shaped bus wires onto the original and cliping the original bits out of the way thus re routing them, easy.

2pics...


And again before that I with a little help cobbled up some scrap metal into shape, coated it in foam and tape and screwed it into a baton. Reason being the layout currently rests on this baton above my bed and the other end now has legs. With this new mod it means I can have the layout a foot lower so instead of the baton it just rests on a dropping hook and instead of legs the chest of drawers. modular and easy.






King of Bodge me!

Please help with the above if you can. Also any typo's I use my phone typing as excuse.

[Mark Tatlow]

I'll reply properly when I get home tonight and can add some photographs.

I think you are saying that the switchblade is rising vertically relative to the stockrail as the blades move across? This certainly has happened to me in the past.

My TOU solves this by using a bar that is attached to the switch blade and is tight below the stockrail. The photos will explain better than words so could you hang on to see them this evening?

[Knuckles]

Thanks Mark. I can wait yes.

Someone on RMweb suggested I pack it underneith to force them down and so I have tried this wihj some Evergreen rodding; it sometimes works but it has to be in exactly the right place otherwise it is either too tight or loose. Can't win!

[Russ Elliott]

It's possible that one of your switch blades is bent. If the bend is bad, the proper remedy is to fit a replacement, although fitting an under-stockrail bar (probably attached to one of your stretchers) as Mark suggests could cure it. The other possible cause is how your underboard TOU is moving when you operate it. Packing its movement might help, but the important thing is to ensure it is constrained to move along a defined horizontal axis. My copperclad underboard TOU pieces on Somersham are held on such an axis by a wire running in tubes on both sides of the copperclad, which prevents the operating arm introducing any twist.

[Knuckles]

Russ, that idea makes sence. As a test I've tried to combine ideas. Instead of packing I've made a new longer bar and butted it to th baseboard. And instead of the supports and angle lock wires (name?) just used the baseboard closeness.

This has a bit of friction which is to be expected but not so much that it will effect the operation (he sais).

Being another of my infamous bodges I might leave it and give it a chance. If it does prove rubbish then if's only a few solder blobs away to change it.

I'm going to await Marks suggestion before I do anything else.

Pics..


Crude as always. Will give it a chance as I passed the finger tests but will change it if it ends up naff operationally. Might add a box with a hole in to give the operation wire more wiggle room.
((((Some of the information below is repeated. Stupid phone unable to edit properly.))))
Thought I would add weight to the non sprung conversion of the Hornby WD wagon. The chassis has nice cut outs already. Their fore

Thought I would add weighg to rhe non sprung conversion of the

[Knuckles]

How simple!? (the top bit, not so much the rest)

http://www.clag.org.uk/tou.html

Might be an option for the other turnouts.

[TEZBEDZ]

here is my idea for a dropper, only a paint file, hope it demonstrates the idea.

Dropper.jpg

[Knuckles]

Thanks Terry, thats pretty much what I did minus the stock rail under peice. Lesson duly learnt!

This mini layout is proving itself as a sound idea; making many cock ups and trying for solutions.

[grovenor-2685]

i would definitely recommend that you do not solder the bottom end of your point blade dropper to the underboard tie bar, much better to use a piece of tube as shown on the CLAG version, this takes the twisting stress out of the soldering and also stops any vertical movement of the underboard part affecting the blades above. So use dropper wires shaped as per Terry's diagram and fit tubes for the bottom end.
It need not be hypodermic tube, that's just what was available when these were first made 40 years ago, in reality they can be a bit to flexible and a nice thick wall brass tube from Finney and Smith will do a better job, get some with a bore that fits your wire closely and set the top of the tubes level with the bottom of the sleepers.
Regards
Keith

[Russ Elliott]

Here's a drawing I did a few years' back for a dropper variation that is easy to bend up and doesn't rely having dual-inline socket tags as were used on Green Street. For the TOU itself, I would now favour the vertical copperclad system I've used on Somersham, which is not only far cheaper than an ABS-Paxolin arrangement, but, more importantly, because it doesn't need a splash plate.

tou-dropper.gif

[TEZBEDZ]

Russ, what would be the distance between the TOU tubes in your example?

[Russ Elliott]

Russ, what would be the distance between the TOU tubes in your example?

I had a feeling someone might ask a difficult question like that! It's not specified, because much will depend on how the dropper wire is bent up, how consistently those wires are bent up, the actual width of the blade at the point of attachment, and how much of a flat is filed on the wire face soldered to the blade - a lot of variables. The arrangement approximates to something like this:

tou-dropper2.gif

On Somersham, my droppers were not cranked and came straight down from the blades (fortunately, the blades were not in need of any stockrail height containment), and IIRC the TOU tube centres worked out at very close to 16mm. I took the dimension after measuring the actual dropper positions with dividers, and I think such an empirical method, i.e. by using a bit of 60 thou plasticard as a blade gap wedge and then measuring what you've got on the dropper wire centres, is probably the best approach, so don't take the values in the above drawing as sacrosanct. Tube centres don't have to be exact, because the system is designed to flex to a certain degree to keep the pressure on the closed blade. If they don't open up to a 1.5mm blade gap for example, the tube can be bent over a bit at the top.

0.7mm droppers are quite chunky, and although I haven't tried lesser diameters, I would say 0.45mm droppers are also viable if suitable 0.5mm bore tubing was handy, and the tube centre dimensions will then be slightly different of course. The choice of dropper wire diameter will depend to a degree on how high the blade is above the top of the tube extending up through the board and the pressure strategy adopted for the operating rod.

[Knuckles]

I'm willing to dismantly what I've done as it's literally only 4 solder blobs away, yet if it will suffice and work then I may keep it.
As you have probably collectively deduced I look for the simple and easy options. More elaborate may work better and look better but for me as a complete P4 n00b as long as it looks 'okay', and works that's the main focus for me at this primative moment. Whan I say 'okay' I mean anything that in an improvement upon 00, and so far authough my track building to those more experienced probably leaves much to be desired to me it's a whole new standard jump as it is.

I'm liking the idea of doing future droppers with that horizontal restraint a few of you have shown, so darn simple and no doubt very effective for keeping the switch blades from bird poking.

i would definitely recommend that you do not solder the bottom end of your point blade dropper to the underboard tie bar, much better to use a piece of tube as shown on the CLAG version, this takes the twisting stress out of the soldering and also stops any vertical movement of the underboard part affecting the blades above. So use dropper wires shaped as per Terry's diagram and fit tubes for the bottom end.

Am I correct in thinking that the idea of wrapping the droppers in plastic tub is so that the wire inside can wiggle and bend a 1/4 of a mm or so? I think that's what you are saying.

If so then I need to make dropers as I have but with a horizontal 'no lift' mech', and then instead of soldering the droppers to the tiebar underneith just wrap them in tubes and put those in friction fit holes in the tie bar. I think that's what your saying.

Would the Tortoise motor need to be on blocks to account for the tie bar being in the way or would you just mount it next to it and bend the operating wire 90degrees one way and then 90 the other again?

Do I even make sence!?

[grovenor-2685]

Am I correct in thinking that the idea of wrapping the droppers in plastic tub is so that the wire inside can wiggle and bend a 1/4 of a mm or so? I think that's what you are saying.

Sort of, but where did I mention plastic? The tube can be hypodermic nedle as on the CLAG diagram, ie stainless steel, or brass as I recommended. Plastic would be to flexible. The tube is to allow two degrees of movement. 1. Rotation, as the point is moved the tiebar rotates a little with respect to the blades, and if soldered solidly as you have this twists the wire and eventually one of the solder joints gives way. 2. Vertical movement of the below board tie bar, the tube stops this from affecting the point blades above.

If so then I need to make dropers as I have but with a horizontal 'no lift' mech', and then instead of soldering the droppers to the tiebar underneith just wrap them in tubes and put those in friction fit holes in the tie bar. I think that's what your saying.

Nearly, brass tubes can be soldered to a copperclad tiebar as shown by Russ.
Friction fit would suit a plastic tiebar, and if you are using Tortoise then I think it worth getting the Exactoscale mount to go with it, which has a suitable plastic tiebar. See http://www.exactoscale.co.uk/downloads/Tortoise%20instructions1.pdf

Would the Tortoise motor need to be on blocks to account for the tie bar being in the way or would you just mount it next to it and bend the operating wire 90degrees one way and then 90 the other again?

As you prefer, if you mount the tie bar on edge as Russ showed it you only need bend the oprating wire once. With the Exactoscale mount it is all provided for.

Do I even make sence!?

You do to me.
Regards
Keith

[allanferguson]

Russ, what would be the distance between the TOU tubes in your example?

This is an original Studiolith TOU. The distance, centre to centre, between the tubes is 24.2 mm, and it worked well. In later years, when I understood these things better, I replaced the droppers with my own design, illustrated. Russ's design, otherwise excellent, doesn't allow for the thickness of the swtchrail foot. If the blades are constrained from dropping by the slide chairs, and constrained from rising by the dropper running below the stock rail, then there shouldn't be any problems with any reasonable arrangement of TOU below. In my experience most problems have been caused by obstructions in the hole through the baseboard, or by ballast, etc falling through into the TOU

Studiolith TOU 1.JPG

Operating wire 2.jpg

Allan F

[Knuckles]

Lol, thanks Keith. At 19:24H I have just finished reading your post. For about 3 or 5 hours before that I started playing so appologies if it seems i'm ignoring advices, for the next three turnouts I may try the tube method and also Exactoscales mount. Today though before reading the above I have had a lot of fun and success.

so, progress. The original droppers have been unsoldered and dumped and two of these have been made...



They have to 'low lift mech' ' in place, which to be honest don't look that out of place to me. Certainly after rust paint they will blend in.



Next was another reaf of the Tortoise instructions. It says to not use a powerful iron and to use a small tip. My soldering station is a Weller 40Watt jobby. Don't know if this is a problem but I just made sure I was, Flux, solder In and Out quick on high heat. 450c. Pssssz...done. Tested an no problems. 0.45 brass wire was used.



Next I cut and glued a block of wood the the board, deemed nessasary for having a tie-bar in the way. This was then pilot drilled in the middle and secured with a counter sunk screw. Counter sunk by over tightening I might add! Was only MDF.
Two screws are losely in place, two others need doing also.



Next was for me to set the motor up and test it. The operating wire was shaped, trimmed to size and installed...don't think much to that retaining screw as it was a bugger to get in.
As per instruction advice I set some terminal blocks up. 1 and 8 were connected to my DC controller and we were away. It took a while to get the throw happy as it was biased to one side but after tweaking the tie-bar position, the green slider and reprofiling the switch blades just a tad, it's all hapy now. As it seems fine I'll leave the mechanical aspects and just concentrate on the rest of the electrics.

I'll try the tube methods on my next turnout, and if this one in time goes a knacker I'll know what to do. All in all an enjoyable experience so far.

[Russ Elliott]

Russ's design, otherwise excellent, doesn't allow for the thickness of the swtchrail foot.

That's a fair comment, Allan. I was envisaging a small nick in the foot of the switchrail foot, so that the dropper had a chance of a really snug fit direct into the web of the rail - the strength of the blade is not adversely affected by a small nick in the foot at the end of the switchrail - the solder tends to stiffen it up to an extent. But as your picture illustrates, a slightly more ingenious bit of bending of the dropper can accomodate the foot if felt desirable.

Again, however the dropper is bent and attached to the blade web, I would emphasise the desirability of measuring the resultant dropper pitch empirically to obtain a 'best match' to the TOU tube pitch.

[Knuckles]

Just a quickie guys. I'm not ready to make a proper post yet but do have a mini question if you know the answer.
The above PM went in ok, and with a little trial and error got it to throw nicely. This second one is the same but it has took me a lot of hours and 3 or 4 sessions tweaking and faffing to get it nice. Is there a formula to it? I find that the PCB tie bar throws the droppers better when the droppers are not soldered to the bar, probably due to flexibility. But this isn't consistent as the last one works better with them soldered! It really is a game of trial and error for me who is bumbeling along unwillingly ignorant! Despite some frustrations though I'm still enjoying the challenge, great when you solve things.

The blades seem to move ok on top but when throwing it from below they sometimes don't want to throw all the way leaving a full 1mm gap. Takes ages to solve but I haven't found any science to it yet.

Any ideas?

The 2nd one I solved by removing the block mount and cutting just a little bit of the green slider off for tie bar clearence.

[grovenor-2685]

Sometimes conventional wisdom is a good idea, get some brass tube a good sliding fit on your dropper wires, push a length over your droppers and solder the tube, not the wire to the below board PCB. This allows the wire to pivot in the tube as the point moves across and the tube makes the wire much stiffer so that the points move rather than the wire bending.
Regards
Keith.

[grovenor-2685]

First two pictures following show the original P4 Turnout Operating Unit (TOU), you can see the wire in tube principle. I have a lot of these in service, they are nice and compact but the tubes do tend to be a bit to flexible and bend makingthe adjustment quite tricky.
The second two pictures show the use of thicker brass tubing, which does make a better job, here the tubes are fitted to a P4 Track Co. tortoise adapter (adapted in its turn to work with a Servo) but the brass tubes can just as easily be used with a home made PCB unit.
Regards
Keith

TOU6.JPG

TOU7.JPG

TOU-P4T-1.JPG

TOU-P4T-2.JPG

[Knuckles]

Thanks Keith. I have took a while replying because Warley was close and so while there I picked up some copper tubing. So far so good.
I've cobbled up what you suggested and it has worked out better but I still need to tweak it. It's still taking hours but I'll get there in the end, will show progress when it's done.

Are any TOU's of this basic design idea still available anywhere?

[grovenor-2685]

As far as I know there is none available complete, the grey plastic parts in my pics are from Exactoscale and should be available again when the current transfer of ownership to C&L is completed but you need to get the tube and wire seperately.
Regards
Keith

[Knuckles]

Got the tube and wire. Its the two metal slide brackets that have grabbed my interest the most as these look like they would solve a lot of issues. I could cobble something up myself but if there is a quick option Ill take it.
So far I spend several hours on one point.

[David Knight]

Knuckles,

There is a good article on DIY TOUs by Dave Booth in MRJ 139. A caution though, the parts list got a bit messed up. I include a couple of pics of my version of the unit.

working bits.jpg

Motion is transmitted to the point rails by "L" shaped pieces of brass rod which fit in the tubes and are soldered to the rail which should show up here

top view.jpg

I use wire in tube to work my points but Dave's were designed for Tortoise IIRC.

TOU in place.jpg

HTH

David