Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - Toryreck Mines

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:55 pm

I must thank you all for your input, its most helpful. At the moment I can't say too much as I'm just sponging the info and reading the links. I do appreciate it. :thumb

The biggest issue once knowing what facilities to model is finding what they look like. So far there seems to be just stone built ruins. Will keep looking though.
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Phil O
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - Toryreck Mines

Postby Phil O » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:33 am

Another link for Wheal Betsy

http://www.legendarydartmoor.co.uk/lean_tow.htm.

Phil

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - Toryreck Mines

Postby Knuckles » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:57 pm

Toryreck is still something I want to do. However as I'm now thinking of doing a series of micro layouts to iron out ballseybodgycockupadoodoowz could you please provide ideas on the following designs. I found I actually have just over 4' overall so that helps a little. If I decide to do this in 4mm rather than N then...

Image

They are the trackplans I'm thinking of doing. Any ideas on this, track tweaks or scenery theme?

I'm limited for space for this one to go above my bed for sure.
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Phil O
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - Toryreck Mines

Postby Phil O » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:18 pm

I like the kick back, which I think might be a suitable location for an overhead loading facility for the mine. Any thoughts on what is being mined?
The biggest drawback/challenge that I can see will be shunting the kick back, with no run round.

I wish you luck with this project.

Phil

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - Toryreck Mines

Postby Knuckles » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:49 pm

Thanks Phil. :)

I'm not doing the mine on this baby board as it is...well, baby. I've already planned roughly the track plan for it and it will likely be around 5' long in the scenic section.

It was originally a Lead mine then it closed in 1925 or 1930 or early 30's (hard to be sure) due to digging almost all of it out. Later they went back and found Uranium so it reopened....as the back story goes.

I like the kick back siding on the above plans too but I see it as 100% useless unless it is purely for a loco servicing area of some description. Nothing can be shunted in there it seems.

For such a small layout dimension I'm a little stuck for scenic themes to be honest. I chose to use longer points as the minimum are in my opinion more bother than they are worth a lot of the time. This is planed in 00 as a quicky but might do something in N instead. I'm currently unable to decide. Would like to try the new Peco UK style points yet have no idea on release date.

For the Mines it would be 00 or P4, again unsure. I have a loft that I keep designing layouts to fit in there with integration as it is basically (apart from this baby board) all the space I have and the only location available to have things. I'm 100% fixated on making another P4 layout or 2 at some point though. No doubt.
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Noel
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - Toryreck Mines

Postby Noel » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:53 am

Knuckles wrote:I like the kick back siding on the above plans too but I see it as 100% useless unless it is purely for a loco servicing area of some description. Nothing can be shunted in there it seems.


The NER had a few shunting locos with poles behind the bufferbeam which could be swung out https://www.lner.info/locos/J/ner_44.php(second image). Other lines used ropes.
Regards
Noel

Phil O
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - Toryreck Mines

Postby Phil O » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:52 pm

Gavin

Before going for the big one, get a couple of small ones under your belt. This will help you find what you like and don't like and hone your skills. Less to go wrong or put right if you make a fist of it. They also help the mojo as you may get something finished and that boosts the morale like nothing else.

Phil.

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - Toryreck Mines

Postby Knuckles » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:30 am

Thanks Phil O, I have a ton of Anyrail trackplans drew up, many variations or different versions of the same locations I want to model all cramped in the available space. I do need to get this levelling thing sorted though for sure. With the baby designs I am a bit stuck for themes really. Not a lot to fit in, especially in 4mm although I'm thinking for this one I might just do a quick 00er and another P4 after.

To Noel, appreciated yet I'm unsure what you and the link is supposed to be telling me. :/

Either way if I do have a kick back I currently think it would just end up with a small loco shed or something.
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Noel
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - Toryreck Mines

Postby Noel » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:41 am

Knuckles wrote:To Noel, appreciated yet I'm unsure what you and the link is supposed to be telling me. :/


The lower photo shows a loco with a pole hinged behind the buffer beam, which could be swung out at right angles and used to move vehicles on a parallel line. It only works one way, of course. Other companies used tow ropes for the same purpose. Attach one end to the loco and the other to a wagon on the next track. Just make sure there are no people, or posts in the way. Either could probably be replicated in 4mm, unlike the other common method of dealing with such a problem, a horse or a couple of porters...
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Noel

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - Toryreck Mines

Postby Knuckles » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:00 am

Ok I get you now.

Thanks for the clarification. :thumb
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Knuckles » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:36 pm

Obese post warning. :thumb

Apologies if people feel it is a waste of time answering my questions due to me lately not getting anything done and changing my mind so often. Life is in the way as usual and these choices are not easy. Mine's idea is not scrapped but the order I may build things keeps shuffling.

The Knapford Junction plan in this thread is still a location I very much want to model but so is Tidmouth MPD and after literally over 5 years of constantly re-planning these two locations due to space restraints (planning started way before I joined Scale4) I feel strongly that my hand is forced to backslide a wee. Because my ambitions are big and I ultimately do know what I want for the 'proper' layouts I'm going to have to do them in 00.

I didn't want to believe me, I mentally have been kicking and screaming over it but truth is unless I manage to somehow buy a house with a big enough room one day it's either do it in 00 or never bother hoping situations will change and it not happening. I'm working on the latter but who knows in today's world.

Anyway, I'm not 'going back to 00' in the classical sense. It was always my plan to try out P4 and see how I get on and that has been accomplished with the 6ft x 1ft test plank I got half way through. I concluded that I'm capable of modelling in P4 and like it very much so I have a series of end to end P4 layouts in the planning that I can build on top of the 00 ones in the loft. To that end, for anyone who may be getting worried or thinking I'm now a heretic, relax! P4 is staying. It has also been my plan for a while to make a 00 layout anyway as I have zero desire to convert everything in my 00 collection and it would be nice to still run what I have again.

For the big layout I have to do it in 00 or I can't do it at all, it's as simple as that. The tighter curves and points are sadly mandatory for me to fit everything in.

Now, to still make the big layout hopefully better than normal 00 I will be building the majority of the turnouts with C&L templates to 00-SF, Peco's new Bullhead track may be used and the points look ok but at the price point I can't realistically use them because for the past 8 months I have only been working 2 days most weeks for Best Connection, give or take. Some weeks it is nothing or 1 day or 3 or 5, but my stipulation is 2-3 most weeks and that has been working out so far. I'm literally 'floating' my savings and scraping by. Self imposed so I can actually do stuff in life and give more time to things that I enjoy or find important and to give SCC a boost.

So, cost is a major major consideration. I already have the P4 gauges but for the 00 stuff it'll be £60-70 at least for initial outlay according to the C&L website, plus I will be buying the point blade filing jig from our S4 stores, add rail, sleepers, timbers and chairs and I'm looking at around £150-200 for initial costs at least. Not a lot I know but when you are not even making that in a week it is a lot. I want to use full depth sleepers/timbers by the way, 1.6 or 1.5mm.

So, progress likely won't be quick. Neither am I kidding myself, I know 10-20 years or more is likely what a project this big may take if I don't want it to look and operate like a bag of nails.

To that end progress has been made in the loft doing the framework for the biggy plans. So far we are about 35% complete. I have added some brackets for extra strength. Maybe not needed but I feel better with the extra security. Carpentry isn't my skill so feel free to cringe.

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The plan is not (emphasis on not) to build the whole layout in one shot. The plan is to build just the tunnel section on the width and operate it as a stand alone layout by itself. Only if/when operation is satisfactory will I even consider moving on. Assuming the tunnels are built the rest of the baseboards will still be built but they will form a massive 'train set' fiddle yard area for the time being.

So if I move on then I will proceed to the top of the plan to Knapford Junction that is more complex. I may build the double slips (I built a working single one after all, doubles bit trickier) or I may fag out and save up for Peco bullhead ones when they come out. Undecided.) So if I build Knapford the same applies, only if/when operation is good enough and I'm happy will I even think of proceeding so then Knapford and the tunnels will be 'the layout' and the rest of the baseboards again will be a fiddle yard and roundy roundy loop all plugged in train set style.

Assuming I don't throw big Knux wobbily again I'll proceed on to Tidmouth MPD. Rather complex though so...yeah we'll see.

Image

But remember the 4ft x 1ft board I salvaged from the N layout I did? It can be extended to 4' 3". It has to be so small if it is to fit in my room.

This I want to do before I do anything in 00 and I'm thinking to do it in P4 as yet another test plank.

I need to revise my track building skills AND I want to try some new methods. I tried Tortoise point motors with the built in polarity switches and I have tried Gaugemaster PM1 solenoids for Peco track and concluded I like them both. However mixing them could be awkward if I wire the CDU to the Tortoises, I imagine barbecued shelled animals stuck to the baseboard. So, I want to try wire-in-tube or maybe similar method. I've always liked real feel signal box lever frames and I could try this, or try a slide switch for polarity with a mechanical linkage - would certainly save up on a TON of wiring and it could be used with RTP track or hand built simultaniously.

Point rodding I have always wanted to model and so I want to do this too, maybe only cosmetically but I want at least some of it to work like on Minories or Brettel Road. I find this most inspiring and interesting. Despite me maybe being a glutton for punishment and asking for trouble I feel I'm already half way there as the previous P4 plank had two working angle cranks on. One was over scale and cranked the wrong way and the second was a scale Brassmasters one. Both operated the turnouts flawlessly with side acting rods. However it was a bodge and the pressures were not right.

Either way I know if I want to even consider any of these options as is normal I can't research forever and I need to get on with it. The 4" 3' board then will be a test bed for this evaluation. If it goes tits up then not a major issue.

Due to the space restraints I'm thinking of grabbing the bull by the horns and attempting a 3 tandem turnout. Would provide good revision and practice all in one and the new operating methods could be tried. Point rods again would be modelled one way or another. Operating if possible.

I understand I am potentially setting myself up for yet more frustrating and painful falls but the heart wants to get on with it. Any help, suggestions or anything appreciated. If you bothered and endured this whole ready my gratitude goes out to you.

Will scrape a small loco and few wagons to shunt.
Image
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RobM
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby RobM » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:46 pm

Gavin.....I admire your tenacity and I'm sure that you will eventually resolve the issues. You need to go where your heart lies whether it be N, 00, 00FS and P4. Not being rude but the big thing on your side is your age......plenty of time left for you to develop your skills in whatever gauge and to progress. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day and at the end of the day it is just a hobby. And hey!...no more Knux wobbileys....I was horrified when I spoke to you and your family at Scaleforum 2017 with your hands all cut up... :o .....Good to see you are still contributing here.....keep attacking!!
Cheers....Rob
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Updated December 2016

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Knuckles » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:31 pm

:D
Thanks Rob, much appreciated. I need more patience and character correction for sure.

My heart is in P4 but for the big layout plan above I can't do it due to radii issues so have had to submit to 00-SF potentially.

The Knapford area can have different scenes plugged in later if need be too so I want to make provision for modular ways.

Above this I can have an end to end P4 layout at about 15' total, has to be less due to the roof shape.

Always enjoy chatting to you and seeing what you build. As you mentioned age, it is clear your skill level is through the shed roof with all the modelling practice and experience and I always admire your work.

I have not read your thread on the Mine layout, only scanned it so I must catch up there. As I was on about building a mine (might do still one day) I do wonder if my questions on it might have gave you the idea. The mine head structure is lovely. :)
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RobM
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby RobM » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:29 am

Knuckles wrote::D
I have not read your thread on the Mine layout, only scanned it so I must catch up there. As I was on about building a mine (might do still one day) I do wonder if my questions on it might have gave you the idea. The mine head structure is lovely. :)

After Mount Woodville it was not my intention to build another layout. I came by chance across the etches for the headstocks and just had to build it and things developed from there.
Rob
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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Knuckles » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:43 am

Naaah come on, you tell fibbs. You had that modelling itch and just swiped the easiest excuse possible, didn't you? :D

Nah, cool. Gotta keep makin' stuff.
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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Knuckles » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:11 pm

Video is just a Vlog version of the above big post really. Is a few days out of date but thought I'd tack it here in case anyone is interested.


https://youtu.be/MonWNWIJUXs


No point me making a layout thread until i actually start it as this is just the framework.

I will be making a Video Log series but at the moment it's just Blog style.

Been building the struts along the wall using roughly lengths cut to (mostly) 2 foot long. Some are a wee less but it doesn't matter that much if a few are a bit out as long as the surface is level. Me and Daddio been doing it and we've tried to get it as consistent as possible with the Spirit Level. I've had to wind him up a few times because we have a different idea on what is 'good enough' but I'm not taking any chances, especially with past mistakes and the affects of accumulative error. Something may be 1mm out and if so later along the way the level may be a full half inch out so doing what I can to eliminate re-work and bodges.


SO, There is a main Battern along the wall screwed into Rawl Plugs, same for the struts going downwards, then there is the struts going horizontally outwards. They are joined by some 'L' brackets and finally another strut is cut at a 45 degree angle and screwed in.

I personally do not think the diagonal piece is strong enough long term with just 1 screw at each end put in at a bodgy angle so I have added some straight brackets as support and at the base due to the wood being turned 90 degrees the other way I cut some scrap pieces and plugged them in to make everything flush. Brackets were then put on at different angles depending what side you look at - this in my mind should stop any twist and add a lot of extra strength.

Betwixt each main triangular strut we have put in some more horizontal pieces furthest from the wall, staggered to allow a hand or drill to get in between them.

Now this set along the back wall is not finished yet, we have 8 struts up so far but need 9 and more aforementioned strengtheners need to be added but after this the side will be done then the opposite side is a repeat process with some special considerations due to extra recesses besides the chimney boob...I mean breast.

If you read that, well done if you understood it, if not the pictures hopefully should give the text some meaningful context, if not tough I guess!

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Should be able to support a Hippo when we're done.

That's it for now, not amazingly interesting but it should get more interesting as progress is made.
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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Knuckles » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:12 pm

I'm wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction.

Progress on the loft structure is going good if not a little slowly. When done it likely is for a giant 00 layout with some hand built track. Really didn't want to go 00 but the space lack and curve radii has forced me. However I want a P4 layout still and I have room to house a 15' end to end one above the 00 one on one of the walls so all good!

Question is, as is usual with a limited space and wanting to model everything subject material, planning and re-doing it with different ideas is as usual a never ending cycle.

So for the 15 foot P4 one I am currently thinking (subject to change of course. :? ) of doing a Furness layout. I've been making Furness engines for a while and want somewhere proper for them to womble along. The issue I have is finding a suitable track plan.

I have 5 books on the Furnesss that have been a great read and reference for various things but as track plans go there are only a small hand full and most the locations are just too big.

Does anyone know what book I need or what website to go to in order to scour various location plans?

I have stripped Google and Duckduckgo as best I can with searches such as Furness Railway Track Plans / Signal Diagrams et al and only found a few.
It doesn't have to be the Furness Railway, could be one of the joint railways too, just anywhere you would expect a Furness train to be.

Whether I go this route or not I still do not know but if I can find suitable ideas maybe. If anyone can help great. :)
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:27 pm

Knuckles wrote:I have stripped Google and Duckduckgo as best I can with searches such as Furness Railway Track Plans / Signal Diagrams et al and only found a few.

Hi Gavin,

Why not look at the prototype plans? NLS now have most of the Furness area in their slippy georeferenced 25" map:

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18 ... rs=168&b=1

Just drag the map to follow the line until you find a suitable track plan. :)

When you have found one, Templot can load it for at the correct P4 size as a background guide for track planning.

cheers,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Knuckles » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:39 pm

Thanks Martin, will give it a shot. :thumb Much appreciated. (EDIT: WOW, wow....what an awesome map. I'm in love with it! Didn't realise such a useful resource existed. Again big thank you. :D )

EDIT - 2
Deleted what was here as I am wasting my time posting it, same as some other threads.

---
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Knuckles » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:48 pm

An update.

I know most of you will not care about this, mainly due to it being 00 and the basis not being entirely real plus this thread has gone silent and replies have dribbled to hardly anything. After 7 years I've finally decided for THIS layout it'll reluctantly be 00. 

I WANTED to do it in P4, I really did but I NEED tight curves and big engines. We're talking around 24 and less inch radius. 

Have kicked and screamed a lot but there you go, it is what it is.  Will be having a 13' x 2' P4 layout above it anyway so all is not lost. :thumb To be built along side the 00 one.

First up however is a vlog build on my sparkshot channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kba8G_0 ... hhw03c010c

Any further updates will be in it's own thread because the 1st two boards I built last night, ergo it isn't theory anymore but manifestation. All these pages have finally yealded something. The ending won't be to many people's tastes. :shock:

The plan...

https://twitter.com/KnucklesSCC/status/ ... 2588870656

https://twitter.com/KnucklesSCC/status/ ... 7609375745

Middle section is to be completely modular so can add a proper fiddle yard there or difference scenes as part of the reason for the layout is so I can make the films on. Also a temporary reverse loop maybe can be added to the middle. Mostly trains will run around Knapford to head back to the Tidmouth Terminus.

Ok, will leave it there. If I make a new update will do a thread with it as this thread is more for mulling ideas. Got that P4 one to plan out.
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DougN
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby DougN » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:42 pm

Knuckles, don't beat yourself up about having 2 layouts in 2 different gauges. I have an unashamedly OO RTR layout where almost every thing is RTR where I can buy and plonk a new Hornby Bachmann what ever and leave running for hours on end... it is a figure 8 in a space of 14' x 4'3" tight curves, 1:30 grades. But I can run a A4 with 5 on... next to any thing... usually when mates come over. My p4 how ever is LNER in NER region with all kit built or seriously modified RTR (Mr Bradwells kits generally) with all kit built stock.., to the best of my ability! This layout which is being over taken by snails will only be 20'x2' both give me pleasure in different ways but both have things done to them at different rates!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Knuckles » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:29 am

Thanks, Doug.
Much appreciated. :thumb

It does bother me though. Was hoping to do things the other way around; have the biggy as P4 and the smaller one as 00 but after 7 years of constant replanning, over 100 Anyrail files, each edited many times my hand is forced if I want to fit in what I need.

I know most here arn't interested in 00 so ubsure if I want to post anything on it. Sane as my N gauge layout I'm building; I post it on RMweb and other places but not here. It's N, sort of doesn't belong!

Got 4 boards built thus for this biggy. It's being built in sections because if I manage to at some point one day raise the stupid amount of moblney needed to buy a hous the layout can be took with me....AND....if there is space do the same thing but better in P4 as desired then there may be an option. Depends what the future holds.

For now though I'm kind of relieved and wound up all at once. Is awkward. Relieved as 00 is quicker and easier, you just buy it and plonk it mostly...yet track n wheels look poo.

P4 takes more effort and longer time but is well worth the extra work, but when walls restrain your curves for the plan/prototype you really want then you're without mercy screwed.
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Monty
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Monty » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:42 pm

I have seen some great layouts in 00 & because I have many steam locomotives & much stock collected over the past decades that is what I model in. Far too much work & time to convert all those items to P4 even if I felt the desire. I have 3 X 00 layouts that run very well that I have built & there is no way that I wish to tear them up & start again! Life's too short. I think there is too much anti 00 gauge in various places & quite honestly if a 00 layout has been built well with good 75 code track, excellently ballasted & weathered along with good scenery & detail it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference, in my opinion. I am in this Society because I like model railways not because of P4, sorry!

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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby bobwallison » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:09 pm

Knuckles wrote:I know most of you will not care about this, mainly due to it being 00

I'm not sure about that - good modelling is good modelling in any gauge. There may be a few die-hards who cannot see beyond the narrow gauge and deep flanges, and so fail to appreciate the other merits of the better 00 gauge layouts: their loss. I found Bradfield Gloucester Square and Bournemouth West - both 00 gauge - inspirational when I saw them last year.

Monty wrote:I think there is too much anti 00 gauge in various places

Where? I cannot remember seeing anti-00 gauge sentiments expressed in the press for many years now and I cannot recall ever seeing it on this site. One of the strengths of this forum is that it is full of people quietly getting on with what they enjoy and sharing their knowledge and experience with others, without explicitly beating the drum about P4. Long may it continue!

On the other hand, one doesn't have to search very hard in print or on other forums to see anti P4 sentiment....

Regards,
Bob

Knuckles
Posts: 1224
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Postby Knuckles » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:25 pm

I love P4, it's why I joined this great society.

I just feel if I post 00 stuff it'll likely be ignored. Most of us joined because of P4 unless I'm mistaken. I don't post my N gauge Norramby posts here because it is N gauge - I don't see how it fits the context of the forum so I refrain and post them on RMweb and other places. I see 00 as similar situation although not as bad. It's still 4mm...sort of.

On a personal level was hoping to leave 00 behind but due to me knowing what I deeply want to model in the space restrictions it isn't happening so will continue to model both gauges, just the biggy will reluctantly be 00 rather than the smaller.

I wouldn't say I'm against 00 but I do confess I am indeed one who has a hard time looking past the gauge and flanges; they're an instant focal point and cause of cognitive dissonance, even in my periphial vision.

That said I'd agree some 00 layouts are truly impressive. Leicester South, Haddon Bank, Stoke Summit and Aloha I adore. My favourites that come to mind.

Hand built bullhead code 75 track is a lot better than bog standard code 100 H0. New Peco Bullhead despite chair compromises is a good step forward in RTR so will be using it where possible for the biggy. Even thinking of not fish plating some turnouts so they can be replaced easier if bullhead versions come later.
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