Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon May 30, 2016 2:19 pm

Knuckles wrote:I managed tutorial 1 ok and that makes sense. Tutorial 2 I have not been able to get past yet, I attempted it at least 3 times pausing every video and copying exactly. I was starting to understand bits but the main issues I had were some of the links in the video caused my Firewall to explode and crash the system

Hi Knuckles,

I haven't actually created anything called "Tutorial 2", so perhaps you could post which link you mean? If something in there is causing firewall problems I will fix it. Likewise if I have omitted a step so that it can't be followed exactly, I will fix that too. Thanks.

Tandem turnouts are at the difficult end of the spectrum. This topic contains some basic guidance and things to avoid:

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?i ... =22#p16119

regards,

Martin.
39 years developing Templot. And counting ...

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon May 30, 2016 2:41 pm

One of the big problems with Templot, for me, is that it's not well adapted for sketching whole layouts - and that's layout in the sense of a modelled diorama, rather than the PW engineer's use of the term. It would be astoundingly difficult to write a good program for that role that could also design all the details of P&C work. The current programs that do make model-layout design easy seem to work in terms of RTR track, so one can't use them for complex, realistic trackwork.

I think we need an intermediate program: something that designs the flow of the track and lets the user set out turnouts in precise locations with appropriate leads and crossing angles. It would not draw all the details of the track and it would definitely not produce templates for building; but it would let one arrive at a design that could be detailed in Templot with confidence that every piece of trackwork could actually be drawn and made. I am considering trying to write such a program: provisional title Trackflow. Whether I'll ever have time to do it is unclear.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon May 30, 2016 3:03 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:I think we need an intermediate program: something that designs the flow of the track and lets the user set out turnouts in precise locations with appropriate leads and crossing angles.

Hi Guy,

You can design quite quickly using F7 snapping in Templot:

Image

More info about this: http://templot.com/martweb/f7_snap_demo.htm

Sorry that page is 10 years old.

Wishing you all success with Trackflow.

regards,

Martin.
39 years developing Templot. And counting ...

Alan Turner
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Alan Turner » Mon May 30, 2016 4:49 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:One of the big problems with Templot, for me, is that it's not well adapted for sketching whole layouts -.


Au contraire, that is exactly Templot's strength.

It's the ability to put the major "spine" of the layout down first and then build from that makes Templot far superior to the likes of anyrail.

If you don't want the detail then switch it off and only use centre lines.

Regards

Alan

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 30, 2016 8:14 pm

EDITING as attachments didn't work...
EDIT 2: can't get them to work so I have gone to Photobucket as usual.


grovenor-2685 wrote:I would remove it, I don't think you should have the facing crossover there anyway, facing access into a short siding is very odd.
Regards

It is odd I know, an earlier version in this thread doesn't have the formation so I may revert back to it. The reason is becasue I want to replicate a certain 'event' and this seems to be the trackplan, albeit questionable.

[quote="Martin Wynne"]I haven't actually created anything called "Tutorial 2", so perhaps you could post which link you mean? If something in there is causing firewall problems I will fix it. Likewise if I have omitted a step so that it can't be followed exactly, I will fix that too. Thanks............quote]
Sure, :)

This is the Tutorial I meant. 2nd one down so I suppose I sort of named it.
Image

And this is the clickable that causes my Bullgaurd to growl and froth at the mouth taking Templot captive.
Image

I wanted to reply to these earlier but I have been really busy and only managed to get at the comp' at around 20:00.

I went through the tutorial again and this time got much further, however I still didn't manage to follow it 100% because the F6 re-alignment parts of the tutorial went awry. I guess I buggered up but I tried to follow it perfectly. On the whole though things worked better so that is a plus.

On the bad I understood about 8% of it, much of it I was just going through the motions clueless! :-? Not your fault, I know many have trouble comprehending it.

Could someone please give some insight onto my questions regarding the 2.5FT radius? Maybe a bad idea but unsure how else to squeeze things in, as I only plan to run a 4-4-0 and a 0-6-0 down it I am hoping if it will be ok or not.

Ok will leave it there. :)
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon May 30, 2016 8:53 pm

Could someone please give some insight onto my questions regarding the 2.5FT radius? Maybe a bad idea but unsure how else to squeeze things in, as I only plan to run a 4-4-0 and a 0-6-0 down it I am hoping if it will be ok or not.

Personally I would say its a bad idea, I have had to relay a couple of places where the curve was tighter than I intended and caused problems, and it was not that tight.
Clutton I believe has end curves of 3ft radius and I would see that as a practical minimum.

Are the squares on your layout plan 1ft square? If so it looks as though you could manage with a 3ft radius and short transitions, Templot can easily generate curved points with a 3ft inner radius, and that's just its bog standard default without getting into anything fancy.
Regards

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 30, 2016 8:56 pm

1ft square boxes yup.
Ok many thanks, I don't want them that tight it's just with using Anyrail they were the closest I could get that looked like they would line up, albeit in 00 which is why I was thinking maybe bend some P4 templates to match, but the tightness I see as bad myself I just wondered if I could get away with it as I currently am a wee stuck.

I'll have to see what I can do.

With your comment on the tandem and the facing point I could always revert to this threads earlier plan for that area...


Image


Also is creating this....
Image

...in Templot easier than a Single slip? Essentially 2 points and a diamond...or maybe a curved diamond. (We went over this earlier in the thread but not as a Templot thing!)
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon May 30, 2016 9:13 pm

As in a number of areas the complexity of Templot depends on what you need the result for. If you want every detail so you can print a pretty picture to hang on the wall then the curved diamond is (or was, I think I saw mention of the curved diamond feature being added) tricky and quite time consuming. if you just want a template to build on then its easy, just lay the two tracks one over the other in the desired alignment, hide the sleepers on one track, do a timber shoving session on the other to get the timbers set up correctly, print out and add in wing rails and check rails by hand.
Of course the new function might have made curved diamonds easy, I have not had any track to draw for some time now.
Regards

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon May 30, 2016 9:23 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Of course the new function might have made curved diamonds easy, I have not had any track to draw for some time now.

Sigh. Yes Keith. Just overlay two plain tracks and a couple of clicks creates a diamond. In Templot2 for 5 years now. Image

You can see why I made using the latest version compulsory. Posts on forums from users of out of date versions don't really help anyone.

Martin.
39 years developing Templot. And counting ...

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 30, 2016 9:24 pm

Okies. Thanks you two.

I likely if I can comprehend do just the basics. I learnt quite a bit from the LH point into single slip scratch build I did so sorting out the correct amount of flair and clearance should be do-able...if do-able is even a word. :idea:
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon May 30, 2016 9:33 pm

Knuckles wrote:1ft square boxes yup.

Hi Knuckles,

That means you have a space 17ft x 11ft?

In that space you should easily be able to create a P4 layout without needing curves sharper than 3ft radius, or even as sharp as that.

About a year ago in this topic I suggested avoiding the "train-set" look by putting the station on a gentle curve, with transition curves at each end, like this:

Image

If you post your AnyRail file I will see what I can do to create a basic Templot equivalent.

If you can't attach .any files here, you can post them on the Templot Club forum: http://85a.co.uk/forum/

regards,

Martin.
39 years developing Templot. And counting ...

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 30, 2016 10:34 pm

Thanks most kind of you. :)

I'm not on my PC at the moment but I could send you a file later possibly.

I actually have 17.5ft x 11ft to play with and in some areas 18ft but as the loft is a paralellagram or rombus rather than rectangle I'm playing it safe with 17.5 max.

I'd feel bad you doing the whole layout for me though to be honest. There are a few variations of the layout too.

I mulled a lot over your past suggestion of having it on a bend but I have mental problems with it being on a curve because then it wouldn't be the same as the 'prototype' I am modelling. Prototype in apostophies because it is fictional, albeit still a recognisable location. I could submit to a curve but it would have to be barely noticable. The other reason is the bottom section needs parellel lines also as I plan (have planned) different locations to plug there as future modelling projects for the films I like to make. I essentially am making a set as well as a model railway as that is what I enjoy most - making films of them.

The main bits I need custom turnouts is for the yellow point areas (on the latest plan on previous page) and the extreme left and right of the layout with the diamonds (If I go that route) but the rest I should be able to do as I technically already have those templates in a folder under my bed.

What are your thoughts on this?

I really appreciate the offer but I need more time to think it over as the design in certain areas need to not deviate too far and I fear wasting your time as I'm so picky!



The 4ft radius curve doesn't bother me too much, it did for a bit but I came to accept it as the mainline will have a pacific and 10-wheeler nocking about. Ideally I would like to bring the extreme left and right tracks inwards if possible for more scenery but am unsure if the station and 9ft modular section below will allow it.

Edit: The curved look I do prefer on the whole but I'm not sure it fits the 'location.' My main reason for trying to avoid it is above and also because for standard Exactoscale point geometry as set out in Anyrail I could in my mind at least increase chances of doing it well. With the curved station I need to seriously mull it over. I might print your edit on paper so I can sight it to see how it looks. Straight as possible is still desired but I agree not many areas were like it. I'm a bit conflicted with various considerations to be honest. :/
Last edited by Knuckles on Mon May 30, 2016 11:10 pm, edited 6 times in total.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon May 30, 2016 10:44 pm

If you can't attach .any files here, you can post them on the Templot Club forum:

If there is a problem attaching anyrail files just tell me what the extension is and I'll add it to the white list, .box files are already on there.
Regards

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon May 30, 2016 11:10 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:If there is a problem attaching anyrail files just tell me what the extension is and I'll add it to the white list, .box files are already on there.

Hi Keith,

.any

regards,

Martin.
39 years developing Templot. And counting ...

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 30, 2016 11:29 pm

I need to think on this curve idea more.

I think a lot of my resistance other than the location looking different is fear of various things more than anything but overall it would look better. I'm going to try to see if I can revise the plug in future proposed and planned sections to be on that curve.
I can't deny that overall it would look better...and possible run better.

I just need time to be sure of things.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon May 30, 2016 11:31 pm

Knuckles wrote:Straight as possible is still desired but I agree not many areas were like it. I'm a bit conflicted with various considerations to be honest. :/

Hi Knuckles,

Many prototype locations were dead straight. But not for only about 10 chains length with very sharp curves at each end. It does give the effect of the traditional train-set oval.

With a gently curved station it is still not going to be very prototypical because the curves are so sharp, but transition curves do help to disguise the severity of the curves. Whereas lengths of straight track tend to emphasize the sharpness of attached curves.

Are you intending to actually use the Exactoscale kits, or simply using the templates for planning? The kits can I believe be very gently curved, but I wouldn't recommend it for P4 tolerances. On the other hand if you are building the track you can have any curves you wish, and it seems a shame to be restricted to what is available as RTR items and templates.

I'm not offering to do the entire design for you, just lay out a basic scheme in Templot. You would be entirely free to pull it to bits, I wouldn't mind in the least, indeed I would expect it. In any event you would have quite a lot of work to do to finish it -- timber shoving for example.

regards,

Martin.
39 years developing Templot. And counting ...

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 30, 2016 11:44 pm

Hi Martin, thanks for the clarification. I do appreciate your collective efforts to help, even if it seems I'm not listening sometimes.

I intend to hand build most if not all the of the points. I've only been using Exactoscale geometry as that is the only P4 that Anyrail currently has as presets and as I have a folder full of templates I can copy and print it just seemed to me easier and more managable...plus I'm struggling to get the Templot engine running, needs oil! I do want to learn it though and not be a burden reliant on others, also this way as you said I can tweak and polish too.

I should be able to get you one of the files up tomorrow all being well. I have about 5 or 6 different versions. :S

I can't thank you enough for even considering what you have offered to do, its very much appreciated. :)
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Paul Townsend » Tue May 31, 2016 5:57 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:
Could someone please give some insight onto my questions regarding the 2.5FT radius? Maybe a bad idea but unsure how else to squeeze things in, as I only plan to run a 4-4-0 and a 0-6-0 down it I am hoping if it will be ok or not.

Personally I would say its a bad idea, I have had to relay a couple of places where the curve was tighter than I intended and caused problems, and it was not that tight.
Clutton I believe has end curves of 3ft radius and I would see that as a practical minimum.


Keith is correct that Clutton' end curves are 3' . Transitions and super elevation help make this look ok.
Large wheelbase locos etc require extra side play for this....easy at design stage but does restrict visiting locos if they don't have enough.

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Tue May 31, 2016 7:38 am

Going with the often mentioned 16mm's for P4 frame widths. For extra side play would 15 be too generous or about right?

The main lines will probably be ok at 4ft though.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Tue May 31, 2016 9:03 am

I've just joined the Templot Forum but need to wait for it to be fully activated before posting. I've used my real name as requested (Gavin Rose). I don't hide it per say, I'm just known on many forums over the years as Knuckles or Sparkshot for various so tend to keep it.

I tried adding the .any files here but it wasn't having it.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue May 31, 2016 9:11 am

I tried adding the .any files here but it wasn't having it.

OK it will now, I've added it to the whitelist.
Max file size is 10Mib
Regards

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Tue May 31, 2016 9:14 am

Ok will try it in a sec and edit this post. Better I joined Templot Club anyway, going to dig it out later.

Also the 'use correct name' policy has made me think, "Ok, about time to show my mug" so I edited it on here (you probably saw it on YT too). You still have to get a silly one though. That's a licorice stick BTW not a ciggy. :D


EDIT:
it says the file is too large!!!

Let me just remove all the grass and scenery...

EDIT 2, it is still too large with just the tracks. Hmm.

Will have to post it elsewhere then.
Last edited by Knuckles on Tue May 31, 2016 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue May 31, 2016 9:19 am

Knuckles wrote:it says the file is too large!!!

Hi Knuckles,

You are now a full member on Templot Club. The file is unlikely to be too large on there, up to 10MB allowed. Thanks for joining.

Martin.
39 years developing Templot. And counting ...

Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Tue May 31, 2016 9:22 am

I just checked, the scenery removed version is less than 10MB so good to go!

The full version is, err, almost 70.

Will post there in a wee.

Thanks again. :D


EDIT - Just tried creating a new thread with the layout name and adding the file but it is an invalid request. :shock:

The allowed file formats doesn't have .any on the list, maybe that could b part of the reason?
Last edited by Knuckles on Tue May 31, 2016 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue May 31, 2016 9:32 am

Knuckles wrote:EDIT - Just tried creating a new thread with the layout name and adding the file but it is an invalid request. :shock:

Hi Knuckles,

You must write at least one word of text. You can't post an empty message. If starting a new topic you must also provide a topic title in the subject box.

regards,

Martin.
Last edited by Martin Wynne on Tue May 31, 2016 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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