Track Planning & Layout Ideas - New Builds Started

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Noel
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Noel » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:55 pm

In general, shunting a through coach or coaches from a main line train to a branch train at a country junction was done by the branch engine if at all possible, so the through coach would be at the back of the main train. It minimised the delay to the main line train, the branch train being regarded as less important [and with less passengers to be affected], and probably not being timetabled for an immediate departure anyway. If only one coach was involved it would be a brake composite. If necessary, it could be left in the platform for collection after the main train had left, in which case it would need to be clearly visible to the signalman.

On the way back the through coach would usually be on the back of the branch train, which would arrive first. The branch engine would run round and attach to the through coach ready to put it on the back of the main line train when it arrived.

Noel
Last edited by Noel on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:04 pm

Thanks Noel. :)
I was thinking it would be the opposite end of the train. Thanks for the correction, will give it a rethink.

To Armchair Modeller - I feel similar but with opposite themes. I feel I'm never going to make the layout/s any time soon, but stock seems to come along quick enough so far. I can spend hours and hours and hours pidelling about with Anyrail. Awesome program, just a bit lacking as far as P4 is concerned.

It does have Exactoscale's range though. Above plan done with it. I still want to learn Templot and have had a play. Maybe later closer to build time. Need to eat more wallnuts first I think.
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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:43 pm

Hello everybody. :idea:

I'm still planning this big-ish layout that for the most part has been designed (previous page)

I've been torn between the usual debate of having a fiddle yard of some description but then having no scenic pass so was thinking upon possible hybrid ideas.

I have thought of doing a scenic pass but then having the back end as a fiddle yard connected by points that connect and cross over outside the scenery on the wide curves and this would provide both but it would also mean a lot of extra complexities and track building.

I doubt my idea is original but it is to me; how about a scenic pass with a traverser all in one divided by a back scene? The whole thing slides.

These two pictures show the story. At full slide the overhang is about 1.5FT both on the board and off.

CLOSED. Scenic area and traverser area divided by a scenic board break or something, not so high that I can't reach over it.
Image

OPEN.
Image

The mini branch line impression's fiddle yard is extreme top right. It would just mean a little 'Wrong Roading' to go back to it. No biggy to me.

Is this a bad idea, if so why? :? I see it as a possible answer to my issue. :thumb
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MarkS
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby MarkS » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:41 pm

I like the idea a lot, the main issues are track alignment, (which shouldn't be difficult)and being able reach over the width of the baseboards to the fiddle yard.

You might consider having the branch rise over the main lines and fiddle yard area to the branch fiddle yard (on an upper level above) so that it is independent from the main lines altogether.
Cheers,

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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:27 pm

Thanks for the suggestion. If I raise the branch the scenic area will be different to how I envision so I'll probably leave that as is for now at least.

I think 3FT is a maximum reach over providing the layout isn't too high. Rather than having a backscene in the middle of the board dividing the fiddle maybe the grass bank should be high enough to obscure the fiddle oines but have the back scene all the way at the back. It's another idea I am toying with, either way if I go with this the join to the boards each end may look a little odd on the scenic side.

The other future planning of this 9 foot traverser is that I also have designs of removing it and shelving it above in order to temporaraly have another 9FT x 3FT location or few built to slot in place as I like to film on these things.

Glad you like the idea above, I know it is unorthodox, rather like me in many ways then!
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:38 pm

MarkS wrote:...........and being able reach over the width of the baseboards to the fiddle yard.
.


Knuckles, why not reverse the fiddle yard with the scenic through line, that way access to the stock will be OK all the time and you are less likely to want to reach over when in fact it is a through line?
Mark Tatlow

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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:45 pm

Interesting spin on things that. I never thought of having the fiddle bit at the front.

I think visually it'd ruin things though, the reason for having the fiddle at the back is so it is out of sight hidden by the embankment and maybe a small sky board inbetween, although as I suggested this might work better at the true back. Also if the fiddle was at the front I'd have a problem with the branch connection.

I may look into your suggestion more though, certainly another option. Thanks. :)
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Phil O
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Phil O » Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:29 am

Hi

You could build a removable scenic cover to go over the rolling stock with the front fiddleyard and thus have the best of both worlds.

Phil

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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:10 am

I was thinking of doing that but with the fiddle at the back. That way the hills could extend a bit. But if I do it at the front the branch connection doesn't work. :(
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:54 am

Hi Knuckles,

Have you considered introducing a gentle curve through the station? The result would look more prototypical and attractive than a dead straight section between two sharp curves. And with transition curves at each end the severity of the end curves is disguised.

I have produced a quick idea of such a scheme, for comparison -- I hope you don't mind. Image

Image

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Simon_S
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Simon_S » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:29 am

How about making the fiddle yard move vertically with the scenic board above the storage board?

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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:33 pm

Hi Martin, that's a really good idea and I like your edit. I fully agree it would overall look better and possibly work better but I wish to keep it straight simple to remain true to the (mostly) fictional prototype, giving it a curve would make it 'wrong.' If I had more room the right hand side would have no curve and left one would extend straight another couple of feet before a more gentle curve starts. It's the compression game again. I do wonder if I can somehow get a transition curve in from the striaght platforms and also would an A1 pacific with 5 or 6 coaches be able to bomb through without falling off as is? I'm not talking about how clunky it may look, but simply about not derailing.

To Simon, That's a good idea that I've already 'penned in' for alternate use. Basically this 9 foot section I want to be partly future proof and also film friendly; I wish to make other mini locations that will slot inside this space providing more locations to play and make mini movies with. I have more fun making video's than building and playing, but it would increase future play value also.

I'm thinking of having the layout around the room resting on large industial 'L' wall brackets and then the other scenes stored below and above the main baseboards.

I hope people don't think I'm being a bit awkward by fighting with your ideas as it isn't the goal.
Thanks for musing upon things.
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steves17

Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby steves17 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:42 pm

Hi. I'm in the middle of planning a junction layout of sorts around the 1920s, but am a little unsure on the detailing of the throat. The fictional station is not actually on the junction itself, so the branch line traffic runs along the mainline for a spell before either reaching the town station or simply carrying along to the line's terminus to the far west ( going up in the photos ). There is one necessary facing point for trains traveling west in the form of a crossover. This leads onto the opposing mainline and then a second turnout to allow branch traffic to come into the brach side of the platform. This set up with the single turnout allows the branch train back out on the correct line when heading back east, where it will eventually come to the branch junction again and turnoff etc.
Image
The loose plan is currently missing a trap point to stop potential runaways onto the mainline but I hope with the visual things are clear enough. However as there is also facing point concerning east board trains coming through fast from the far west I thought it wasn't quite right. Instead i've plotted this out ( the double slip on the mainline is really a diamond, I just don't have one left in Peco set track form )
Image
While a little unusual I think this plan is better but i'm not sure what I would do with trap points in this set up. Also would B6 templates be appropriate? I assume there would be about a 10-15 mph speed limit for traffic coming into the branch platform and i'm otherwise a little tight for space in this area so I think it will have to do. ;)

Advice/suggestions will be appreciated as i'm keen to get this show on the road but need to be sure before I worry about dividing the baseboard sections etc.

Steve

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Noel
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Noel » Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:32 pm

It rather depends on which company's practice you are intending to emulate, since different pre-grouping companies had their own idiosyncratic methods. If you can find an example of a similar situation on your company's line, it should help. The top photo with a facing crossing and a single point to the bay would probably have been pretty unusual on a main line before the 1970/80s.

Another alternative to those you have shown would be to have the trailing crossover plus a single trailing point in the eastbound line, leading to the bay. The branch train then arrives at the westbound main line platform, where the passengers leave. The empty train is then shunted to the eeastbound line over the crossover, reverses and moves to the bay ready for departure. If runround facilities are required [i.e. not an autotrain], the runround can be arranged so that there is no direct access to it from the main line.

From the bay, locos can access the main line or a headshunt, which is also accessed from the runround loop. The bay points are set for the headshunt except when access to/from the main line is required. No further protection is then necessary. Effectively the direct access from the westbound line in your second picture is changed to access to the eastbound line, the line accross the double slip to the eastbound line is removed, and the slip replaced by a point leading to the bay and the run round.

Alternatively, you could delete the access from the westbound line completely, and leave the rest unchanged, ie with a double slip, which would be Midland Railway practice. In either case, the signals then go at the end of the bay platform and read to the main line or the headshunt.

I hope this makes sense.

Noel
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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:34 pm

Aah, Steves A.K.A Sleeper Agent; I'll bubble you up.

That plan of yours is two stations East of mine! :D hehehe.

I find it ironic that today I came to this thread to re-read peoples suggestions as I'm faffing in the attic again and am getting progress done to make the layout more habbitable...and then you pop in too. Cool.
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby steves17 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:58 pm

*Edit Haha Knuckles you found me on the forum at last ;) Yep the plan is 2 degrees off yours but i've been trying to fine tune it little to be both prototypical and to match up with the books as best as as possible ( its Wellsworth Station from The Railway Series folks ). Alright then below is my reply to Noel which i've been building up over the last hour.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I did buy a 4 volume series of station surveys by R.H.Clark a while back to get a better understanding of the real thing, but with them all being GWR it seems a bit limiting with what is displayed. As Wellsworth and even the NWR is fictional ( ok maybe there was a real North Western Railway ) I can't look up a proper prototype i'm afraid and with the added complication of it not being a true junction station i've not been able to find anything too similar. While i'm familiar with point locks to deal with the undesirable issue of facing points my general impression is that double slips are a big no no in places that aren't in a slow terminus area or otherwise isolated from the mainline-Midland were an exception to this then? Having said that I have found a few examples of single slips in my historical survey series such as Keinton Mandeville,
Image
but these are usually set up for reverse manoeuvres looking at direction of the up and down lines.

I might ask you for a stick diagram but I think I understand your alternatives. Just to clear a few things up though I do actually intend to run an motor-train unit or two but they will have arrived after the station was relaid in or around 1915, so there will be a run around loop in the bay platform and this will also be utilised for a small yard to the east of it. I left the track work out above as to just focus on the throat section. Here is what I intend in loose form. * The mini yard is not finalised yet but I think i've got a good idea now.
Image
Image


So this is your first alternative I trust-the branch train pulls along side the westbound platform, lets the passengers out,
Image
then reverses over the trailing crossover and then forward again into the bay platform where it can run around and wait to begin the return journey and all with no facing points. :thumb The only thing I think that might be wrong with what you said though is about the passengers getting out strait away. From what I understand its practice to clear the mainline as quickly as possible, so it should get into the bay platform before anyone dismounts.

Your option two is this then I trust. The train goes over the facing point and strait into the bay.
Image
After the engine has run around then it can simply use the slip to head back down the east bound line :thumb Unless i'm missing something a single slip would suffice here then.

Flicking through one of my GWR books further i've found something sort of similar to that. This is looking south-west towards Honeybourne and the plan is from 1910.
Image
The single slip is facing oncoming traffic, so if I can find this on the GWR as well as the Midland then even though I personally prefer the first, more safe option, I think i'll take option 2, as it better suits the events of a tricky Christopher Awdry story. Both are great though, as there is less point work to build and I'll have more room for platform length.

Thanks a lot :D

( As its turned out your station plan was pretty much bang on the money all along Knuckles feel free to post it if you can't resist ;) )
Last edited by steves17 on Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:51 pm

Steve,
There is no need of a facing single slip off the main line on your plan, one would only be useful if your bay was over on the left. Since your bay is on the right the single slip would be trailing to the main line and only facing for the low speed moves leaving the bay, which would not be any sort of problem.
ie In your first plan in the last post the diamond needs a slip adding for trains to leave the bay onto the correct line.
Regards
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steves17

Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby steves17 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:42 pm

Ah I think that last photo was a little misleading about what I meant, as the slip would not be facing anything, just there to release the return branch traffic and in the earlier post the exiting traffic would of used the turnout to the east of what was supposed to be a diamond, but represented by a double slip, as that is what I still own in set track form.
This is quick mock up of what i've got now-still not 100% finalised but i'll tinker with it tomorrow.
Image
Hopefully you can see only the one point is actually facing oncoming traffic.
Image

With the trap above it ( the Peco turnout sitting on top ) would it just be better to make it a dead end/safety siding? I think so and a bigger gap is needed between it and the double mainline if I recall correctly from what I read elsewhere-10ft isn't it?.

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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:09 am

Steve's plan is not that different form the layout at Pulborough on the mid Sussex line between Horsham and the South Coast. The branch line to Midhurst joined the main line at Hardham Junction which was a couple of miles south of Pulborough. The loop platform for the branch line trains was on the up side of the line so up trains ran along the main line and into the loop. Down trains came out of the loop, over a cross over just south of the main down platform and then ran along the down line to the junction. This lasted until the final closure of the branch in May 1966.

Terry Bendall

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Noel
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Noel » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:20 am

Arrival at the main platform would not take long - the passengers would not have any reason to stay on the terminating train. In fact they would most likely be crowding in the doors trying to get off... Passengers would not be allowed to board until the train was in the bay. In any event, there might not be any when the train arrived; timetables often left the branch train at the junction for prolonged periods before it was due to leave again. Steam main lines in the 1950s and 1960s tended to see expresses in small batches, often with long gaps between batches, so fitting in freights, and the stopping trains which existed then [and often hung around for several minutes at station stops], was not too difficult. Don't forget, your station would see a number of 'semi-fast' and 'all stations' stopping trains on the main line, as well as the branch services. However, direct arrival to the bay is not that unlikely, so if that suits the storyline...

So far as the trap point is concerned, as I wrote earlier it isn't necessary. The slip at the end of the bay can fulfil that function, being set for the siding if the main line points are set for the main line, and with its protecting signals on the platform end for the bay, and set slightly further back alongside the loop. However, extending the line from the "trap" point to provide a carriage siding is certainly a possibility.

Noel
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:19 pm

However, extending the line from the "trap" point to provide a carriage siding is certainly a possibility.

But does then need a trap on the siding to protect the passenger route into the bay from the siding.
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Knuckles
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Knuckles » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:18 pm

steves17 wrote:*Edit Haha Knuckles you found me on the forum at last ;) Yep the plan is 2 degrees off yours but i've been trying to fine tune it little to be both prototypical and to match up with the books as best as as possible ( its Wellsworth Station from The Railway Series folks ) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
( As its turned out your station plan was pretty much bang on the money all along Knuckles feel free to post it if you can't resist ;) )



Aaah go on then.

To everyone, Steve's plan is based on this plan I made a while back that has been revised a 1000 times. If we had the room we would build it but as I gather Steve is just building the East side. Don't worry about the KURN's, they are references to a database I made, although being RWS I highly doubt it'll be anyones cup of tea. Yorkshire tea black with 1 sugar is mine...or Earl Grey and jasmine. Trying to find the latter now though seems to be impossible.

Image


Noel wrote:Arrival at the main platform would not take long - the passengers would not have any reason to stay on the terminating train. In fact they would most likely be crowding in the doors trying to get off... Passengers would not be allowed to board until the train was in the bay. In any event, there might not be any when the train arrived; timetables often left the branch train at the junction for prolonged periods before it was due to leave again. Steam main lines in the 1950s and 1960s tended to see expresses in small batches, often with long gaps between batches, so fitting in freights, and the stopping trains which existed then [and often hung around for several minutes at station stops], was not too difficult. Don't forget, your station would see a number of 'semi-fast' and 'all stations' stopping trains on the main line, as well as the branch services. However, direct arrival to the bay is not that unlikely, so if that suits the storyline...

Noel



It fits pretty well actually. Wellsworth is supposed to be a Junction station with Suddery Junction itself a few miles East of the station and a massive yard just to the West as seen on the plan. It'd store a lot of China clay wagons, both wet and dry, amongst other things. Plenty of stopping trains and connecting trains going both ways too.

I hope people don't mind me answering, I'm sure Steve will too, it's just....we are kind of in on this together in a way. Hard to explain.

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steves17

Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby steves17 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:39 pm

Yep as you can see what i've laid out is very close to Knuckles' plan. Its impossible to build the yard in line to the station section without either inheriting a mansion or scaling down to N gauge but I do ( eventually ) plan to build the yard on the other end of the table, so they are back to back and one end will feed into it, just like it would if it was strait. The east bridge and surrounding embankment in the centre of Knuckles's plan is actually idealistic as a scenic brake anyway.

Noel

Many thanks for mentioning Pulborough station with the branch line to Midhurst as i've been struggling to find a through prototype that is similar.
Image
Looking at the 'layout' it really is comparable to what I have in mind ( the alternative trailing crossover concept especially ) and funny enough i'm planning to include a cattle dock too.
Image
It will be adjacent to the loading bay, sort of similar to an old layout I found called Thame,
Image
Image
but more simplified.

Also thanks for reminding me about your point about the double slip acting as trap. I've fiddled the track work about a bit more and am hoping i've just about got it right this time.
Image
Keith concerning the sidings/headshunt connecting to the double slip will I still need a catch point? Assuming the track is all perfectly level and the nearest rolling stock to the station has its hand brakes on is there really much risk to the public? Looking at the photo just now the line closest to the loading shed could be turned into a short headshunt so it stops before the building, as its a little cramped up and then the siding next to it could be for the carriages or what have you and then that would contain the catch point....

Knuckles i've reinstated your second headshunt at the end of the bay platform for the moment to allow a little more space for marshalling goods.
Image

In the current set up there is enough room in the bay for four branch coaches and a large Atlantic engine, which will be more than sufficient for 4 coaches and the usual tank engines ( auto fitted or not ) or even when necessary a certain Furness 4-4-0 during any peak times of the year.
Image
The mainline platforms can hold about 10 BR Mk2 coaches and at least 11 suburban coaches, so i'm quite happy with that. :D I'll have to come up with a proper plan for the cattle dock and loading bay, plus the signalling etc but otherwise I think thats about it concerning the general spacing out of things.

Oh a technical question. If the maximum of 4 branch coaches were in play, but they were instead being pulled by a long tender engine over the normal shorter tank engines that run from the branch line up to Wellsworth and this means that the train is almost too big for the bay loop ( the last coach being about where the GWR pannier is siting ). Would it be an issue for the tender engine to run around the now empty coaches and then after going past the double slip a little, push them back towards the bay buffers a bit, so then after its exited to the yard to use the turntable and then returns facing the right way and can just reverse into the bay where everything is in place.
Image
As long as the coaches were empty during these in between service manoeuvres I don't think its a rule book violation for the engine to be sitting on the double slip right? I suppose otherwise the engine could push the coaches further toward to the bar buffers, but again this would mean some point work is occupied ( not that either need to be changed during this time of corse ).

Suggestions/tweaks are still quite welcome as I want to get this as right as I can before I start ordering and building.

Cheers

Steve

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Noel
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Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby Noel » Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:20 pm

I can't take credit for mentioning Pulborough, that was Terry. By the 20th century the BoT rules required all lines on which any movement might conflict with a passenger line to be protected. Usually this was by a catch point or a siding connection which also acted as such. In very low speed areas a block which swung across one rail of a siding and locked was an alternative. Unless the brakes are properly pinned down, strong winds can move a wagon, as the LNWR found out the hard way at Chelford in 1894.

In general, railways tended to go sideways in wayside stations, and put sidings alongside passenger facilities at wayside stations, as this reduced shunting moves, and hence time at stations, simplified the track and locking, and avoided potential problems such as access difficulties when the bay is occupied. Sidings in the location you are using would most likely have been accessed only from the loop, and be used for storage, requiring only limited access. This would be consistent with Knuckles' plan.

Noel
Regards
Noel

steves17

Re: Track Planning & Layout Ideas.

Postby steves17 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:26 pm

Ah my sincere apologies Terry, got my wire crossed there, so i'll say it again- thank you.

Cheers Noel for pointing out the high winds example. I've been refining the spacing out of the points and tinkering in general and i've turned the line that would of fouled the double slip into a small headshunt for a loco during manoeuvring around the coaches, but I still have a few questions if you lot don't mind. Regarding Knuckles's plan above would the water tower and coaling staith be too close to the platform area with dust being kicked up or anything? I've been trying to rack my brain how a push-pull engine in 'sandwich formation' would top up on water and coal. The journey from Brendam to Wellsworth is about 17 miles, but i'm not really sure how long a tank engine ( say an M7 ) would be able to comfortably run without topping up. Do they normally detach from their coaches to refuel or are facilities usually designed so they can move the whole train to a stretch of line that allows them to top up while still being trapped between coaches? Day to day only two coaches would be on them but i'm ideally looking to allow them to run with a second pair on the other side during peak times of the year.
Image

The outstanding loading bay area can wait till tomorrow but if I know about the above issue that will be handy.

Cheers


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