Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:31 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:
Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:Had I seen your lengthy post on the genesis of the project? Well, in fact I had started to read it, noted that I was (responsible) for something in you feeling moved to write this now, resolved to ask what it was that I said, and then got distracted by I don't know what. So I have now come to ask you the rather overdue question. What was it that I said, that you referred to?


Hi Andrew.
It took me about three attempts of reading this to understand your meaning and a good bit of searching back through the thread to find it and some playing with the format of this post to get it to display as I wanted.
Anyway, It was this post, halfway down page 10 on December 2018, so not surprised you don't recall it.

Hello Tony
Yes, having just reread it again I can see that sometimes I have a propensity to make very long sentences, punctuated with enough commas and brackets to sink a battleship, and that this makes understanding what I'm saying problematic on occasion. It's funny because at the time I was quite pleased with how much I'd been able to cram into a relatively short space... I'll not make any promises that I can't keep, but your comments have at least made me aware (of my shortcomings!). So thank you, and thank you also for going to the trouble to find the bit where we were discussing the merits of the history lesson. Glad I wrote it and that you recalled it after so long. Well worthwhile!

Kind regards
Andrew

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:31 pm

Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:
Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:Had I seen your lengthy post on the genesis of the project? Well, in fact I had started to read it, noted that I was (responsible) for something in you feeling moved to write this now, resolved to ask what it was that I said, and then got distracted by I don't know what. So I have now come to ask you the rather overdue question. What was it that I said, that you referred to?


Hi Andrew.
It took me about three attempts of reading this to understand your meaning and a good bit of searching back through the thread to find it and some playing with the format of this post to get it to display as I wanted.
Anyway, It was this post, halfway down page 10 on December 2018, so not surprised you don't recall it.

Hello Tony
Yes, having just reread it again I can see that sometimes I have a propensity to make very long sentences, punctuated with enough commas and brackets to sink a battleship, and that this makes understanding what I'm saying problematic on occasion. It's funny because at the time I was quite pleased with how much I'd been able to cram into a relatively short space... I'll not make any promises that I can't keep, but your comments have at least made me aware (of my shortcomings!). So thank you, and thank you also for going to the trouble to find the bit where we were discussing the merits of the history lesson. Glad I wrote it and that you recalled it after so long. Well worthwhile!

Kind regards
Andrew


Hi Andrew.
You are welcome.
I suspect I could be accused of similar practice occasionally.
I once read somewhere that using long sentences is supposed to be a sign of greater intelligence. I don't know about that, but it doesn't always improve readability.
Anyway, best wishes
Tony.
Last edited by Tony Wilkins on Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:03 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:
the development of Templot really was the first step of turning my dream into something tangible
... ...
PS the Templot file is now up to version 15c.

Hi Tony, Andrew,

I get goose-bumps to think that the program I started dabbling with 40 years ago has helped so many to realise a lifetime dream.

Mystified and infuriated a great many more of course.

It's puzzling that in all that time there is no sign of anyone coming along with a replacement program, when you think of all the other developments of the digital age since the 1980s. Templot is stuck in a time-warp, and I'm too old to see a way out of it. I always assumed that by now I wouldn't need to.

But I'm inspired to keep going when I see you and others posting photos of track being built on Templot templates. Sometimes amazing trackwork formations that I would never have dreamed of when I started. So thanks for that, and the opportunity to have played a tiny part in your grand projects.

cheers,

Martin.


Hello Martin
I'll second what Tony has said and add that the part you played in making track constructible through the ability to plan on paper accurately before getting out the timber and rail, has given me (and many of us) a sporting chance of it both working well and looking realistic. So no not a tiny part in my/our success, a fundamental part. Being an 00 and EM modeler (so far in my life) I am, as Iain would put it, " a bit dot and carry one" sometimes in my approach and execution of stuff! But despite my shortcomings, your software has enabled me to make track that works really quite well, and I think looks lovely. Its been a bit like painting with numbers!
I think I owe you a lot
Thank you.
Andrew

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:37 pm

Well getting back to the business of actually building the layout, its back to preparing more baseplates. I am also going to have to make another batch of sleepers soon as well. Not very inspiring I'm afraid, but necessary. There has been some track laying taking place in the back ground allowing me to free up two construction boards for reuse. Two more are required to be able to build all the outstanding plain FB track I am going to need.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:50 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:Well getting back to the business of actually building the layout, its back to preparing more baseplates. I am also going to have to make another batch of sleepers soon as well. Not very inspiring I'm afraid, but necessary. There has been some track laying taking place in the back ground allowing me to free up two construction boards for reuse. Two more are required to be able to build all the outstanding plain FB track I am going to need.
Regards
Tony.


Hello Tony
When you say construction boards, I may have missed it, but I wonder exactly what you're referring to?
Andrew

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:11 am

Andrew Bluett-Duncan wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:Well getting back to the business of actually building the layout, its back to preparing more baseplates. I am also going to have to make another batch of sleepers soon as well. Not very inspiring I'm afraid, but necessary. There has been some track laying taking place in the back ground allowing me to free up two construction boards for reuse. Two more are required to be able to build all the outstanding plain FB track I am going to need.
Regards
Tony.


Hello Tony
When you say construction boards, I may have missed it, but I wonder exactly what you're referring to?
Andrew

Hi Andrew.
The construction boards are simply the flat sheets of 6mm MDF I use to construct my track on.
I couldn't think of more descriptive name for them.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

bevis
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby bevis » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:30 pm

Hello Andrew,
These sheets can be seen p21, the 5th March 2:58 posting by Tony. I have had the pleasure of seeing them in the flesh so knew what he was referring to.

Regards,

Bevis

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Andrew Bluett-Duncan
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Andrew Bluett-Duncan » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:28 pm

bevis wrote:Hello Andrew,
These sheets can be seen p21, the 5th March 2:58 posting by Tony. I have had the pleasure of seeing them in the flesh so knew what he was referring to.

Regards,

Bevis


Hello Bevis and Tony
Thank you for the explanation and reference to the p9cture. All is now clear, and in fact i had seen the picture but not realised exactly what I was looking at!
Kind regards
Andrew

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:05 pm

Before I could continue, I had to go back two pages to find out which picture I last posted, which was more or less this one.
DSCF1219.jpg

From here the bridge was packed away and the paper carefully removed to leave the pins in place to relocate the track. The amount of extra cork needed at this end of the baseboard can be seen here.
DSCF1222.jpg

Yet the baseboard is well braced.
DSCF1225.jpg

Possibly using multiple layers of Sundela board and carving the ditch has compromised the structural integrity of the surface layer. I carved through the first layer, then glued and clamped a second layer of Sundela underneath and allowed this to set before repeating the process until the required depth of cut was achieved. Four layers in total. I don't know if this was the case, but the next baseboard suffered from the same problem.
Anyway, the next sections of track were laid and ballasted. The white pin was used to make sure the center of the main lines on the printout aligned with the center of the track bed.
DSCF1224.jpg

After cleaning up the following morning.
DSCF1226.jpg

Here are the next two baseboards with the other half of the ditch to the right with two sets of outflow pipes toward the far end.
DSCF1227.jpg

Retrieving the straight baseboard meant clearing off everything that had accumulated on top of it over time and the start of another clear up.
It was when I connected these two boards together that I discovered that, apart from the inside edge, the cork strips didn't quite line up. Printing out the Templot plan with the track bed edges and overlaying it on the baseboard showed where the problems lay.
I had previously determined that the concrete sleeper track needed 2.5mm cork rather than the 3mm cork I had already laid and the track bed was too narrow, so having marked the center line by putting pins down the length, I marked the new mid point and lifted the errant cork with a chisel to be replaced with a strip of 2.5mm cork. I had considered sanding a ramp in the cork at the baseboard joint to deal with the discrepancy, but as it was under width I decided to replace and be done with it. The 1.5mm cork for the outside curve I added an extra strip along the outside edge.
DSCF1228.jpg


There were a number of watercourses present in the vicinity as can be seen from this map. I have highlighted them in blue.
For reference, the straight track along the edge of the baseboard is the one running alongside the factory and ends more or less where the black line goes vertical, where I believe there was a gate.
Brismdown1.jpg

That at the top left has an arrow pointing from left to right showing the direction of flow, but the other two are just marked Drain. I presume they are all connected, but there is obviously a lot of culverting between them if so.
By the time the line reaches Ponders End station, Brimsdown ditch flows alongside the railway as an open channel for some distance and it was this feature I wished to replicate.
It also shows the second road bridge (referred to previously) that I need to model as a scenic break.

It was at this point that I began to wonder if I had a potential problem as the track had to meet at three places rather than just two.
Because I had started laying my track from the industrial sidings because of the saw tooth joint needed, this created an additional reference point for the track, so I had a center reference as well as two ends to deal with. With this in mind, I decided to print out a crosswise sheet showing the next baseboard joint complete with the background map to see how they corresponded. The Templot track bed edges were a good match with those on the map, which was reassuring, but there was a discrepancy between this and the cork as laid of about 4 to 5mm. Not that much, but more than enough to caused alignment problems if I carried on laying the track from the curved end. The answer, I decided, was to work my way out from the center in both directions. This meant clearing the next two 1500mm long baseboards and finding a clear working space some 4.5M long to assemble the four baseboards I required to do this.
The two shown above plus these two.
DSCF1230.jpg

The loose ends connect into the up and down main lines.
DSCF1229.jpg

DSCF1231.jpg


Regards
Tony
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Tony Wilkins
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:57 pm

Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:34 pm

However, before I could do that, I needed to paint the PCB sleepers for that section of plain FB track. As I had originally intended to proceed from the end inward, these sections had not been done and whilst waiting for the paint to thoroughly dry after each coat, decided to continue laying the curved track sections across the next baseboard joint so I could at least complete the track laying for one more board. As there was a slight difference in alignment between the two sections of concrete based track at the joint, I cut some Peco rail joiners in half and used these to temporarily hold the rails in line across the baseboard joint while everything set ensuring correct alignment.
DSCF1232.jpg

Then I could get on with wiring it. The tag strips had to go on the outer half of the bracing as there was not enough room to get two screws in if they were placed on the inner halves.
DSCF1233.jpg

At least this baseboard and the next two are relatively straightforward, at least in my terms, being three stretches of continuous plain track, but still entail a fair bit of wiring none the less. The next baseboard is shorter still, but little less work to wire. These two boards form an almost self contained scene and I have always had it in mind to eventually attempt a semi dioramic scenario with them using my limited scenic skills.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:57 am

Reading the latest post Tony, the painting of the underside of the baseboards caused me to look back at a post at the end of March when you mentioned a sag in the top of a board. I wonder if the sag was caused by painting the underside only? We have of course seen many pictures of the underside of the boards and painting the underside makes it easier to see the wiring but would it contribute to sagging?

Just a thought.

Terry Bendall

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:01 am

Hi Terry.
I wonder where you got the impression that I paint the underside of the baseboards, because I don't. What you see is the natural colour of the Sundela board. Years ago it used to have a fawn colour, but now its grey. I am convinced that most of my problems with sag come from the board not being flat from day one and despite all the bracing built into my baseboards, it still manages to stay curved in between (despite what the instructions that come with the Sundela board would have you believe). It is I'm afraid, going to be a perennial problem with this stuff and each baseboard in turn has to be scrutinised and leveled, in so much as one can, as part of the track laying process. It is something I am learning to live with.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:38 am

Sundeala had a reputation for sagging 50 years ago although not as bad as 'insulation board' which I once used as it was cheaper. I wouldn't touch either now.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:49 pm

Hi Keith.
I can understand that viewpoint. I have had second thoughts about that decision more than once, but there is no going back now.
Would I recommend the product? From my personal experience, not for baseboard tops, that's for sure.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Brimsdown-The last grand project.

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:45 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:I wonder where you got the impression that I paint the underside of the baseboards, because I don't.


Thanks for the correction Tony. My mistake. Sorry.

Tony Wilkins wrote:Would I recommend the product? From my personal experience, not for baseboard tops, that's for sure.


I agree. For me nothing less than 12mm thick birch plywood with suitable supports where needed.

Terry Bendall


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