An approach to building a GWR 1854 Saddle Tank

[Worzels Works]

The next stage of wheels a coupling rods will sort out the men from the boys!

That is why I am watching with awe and taking notes! here's me sweating over the mere thought of a diesel conversion (no modelling time until November doesn't help, idle minds and all!)

which is at least a part of the reason why I came to this site in the first place. So thanks again and I'll keep you posted as progress is made!

You and I both Andrew! And the quantity of inspirational modelling on the forum is incredible, the challenge is not to get too many ideas!

[petermeyer]

The convention is to put opposite end spacers on at right angles on each single frame before putting the whole in a jig. At least you then start with the spacers square.

The chassis with gearbox and motor precariously balanced in roughly the right place...
IMG_1130.jpeg

And miracle of miracles, it looks as though the body and chassis seem a match!
IMG_1124.jpeg

Andrew

I wonder whether you have put the body on with the motor in that configuration? I'm doubtful that it would fit and not foul and short out on the top; also there is very little space between the firebox sides on the Wills saddle tank which are quite heavy castings. You may have to remove some metal to get the motor in. For these reasons I went for a different gearbox setup as previously described,

[davebradwell]

Some years ago I finally admitted to myself that when assembling frames they had to be clamped between 2 plates - wood, metal, it doesn't matter - to keep them straight. Recent posts have confirmed the need for this. You can then tackle getting the axle square to these and the tops level. Presumably the chassis jigs have a flat top that can be used for one side. I think the little trick with these jigs comes in Dave Holt's threads where he pushes the hornblocks all towards the same end. Fixed axle bushes must behave differently, though.

Iain Rice pointed out in his book that by soldering all the spacers to one frame first, when you heat up the other side it will expand and produce a banana shape on cooling. With everything clamped up cold it's easy to tack seams at random. A more modern kit would have had etched slots for the frame spacers making the whole business easier.

DaveB

[Winander]

that when assembling frames they had to be clamped between 2 plates - wood, metal, it doesn't matter - to keep them straight

I am having difficulty picturing this, do you mean individual sides or the whole ensemble? Don't the plates get in the way of access to the bearings and spacer locations? If you fit hornguides prior to assembly then you don't have a great deal of flat surface to clamp. I don't doubt the wisdom but can't picture the implementation.

[davebradwell]

Actually I put the whole chassis in a machine vice with smooth jaws but there's no reason why you couldn't use separate plates and clamps. The chassis is upside down with the brgs sticking up above the vice/blocks. If width of strips is chosen carefully the top edges (which are usually straight) can be stood on something flat. All you have to do is get the axles square across but my method isn't relevant here. Took to this after having an epic struggle with the frames in my L1 kit as they're quite long - have done Pacifics and others since and it's a doddle. Getting a chassis straight and true is important or it will go round curves better one way than t'other.

DaveB

[Andrew Bluett-Duncan]

Peter [/quote]

I wonder whether you have put the body on with the motor in that configuration? I'm doubtful that it would fit and not foul and short out on the top; also there is very little space between the firebox sides on the Wills saddle tank which are quite heavy castings. You may have to remove some metal to get the motor in. For these reasons I went for a different gearbox setup as previously described,[/quote]


Hello Peter
Well, I think I've measured it out ok but I'll try it out, possibly this evening, when I get home and I'll let you know. I'm using one for Chris's new ish coreless motors which is only about 13mm dia. But as you say it may be too long...time will tell!

Kind regards
Andrew

[Andrew Bluett-Duncan]

Some years ago I finally admitted to myself that when assembling frames they had to be clamped between 2 plates - wood, metal, it doesn't matter - to keep them straight. Recent posts have confirmed the need for this. You can then tackle getting the axle square to these and the tops level. Presumably the chassis jigs have a flat top that can be used for one side. I think the little trick with these jigs comes in Dave Holt's threads where he pushes the hornblocks all towards the same end. Fixed axle bushes must behave differently, though.

Iain Rice pointed out in his book that by soldering all the spacers to one frame first, when you heat up the other side it will expand and produce a banana shape on cooling. With everything clamped up cold it's easy to tack seams at random. A more modern kit would have had etched slots for the frame spacers making the whole business easier.

DaveB

Hello Dave
Thanks for you thoughts and experience. How do you clamp them up. Do you have a jig you've made? *(Edit)

Iain actually taught me how to build a chassis on the simple board that's in the 2nd photo, and most of my locos have been built using that. I rather expected the Avonside jig to increase accuracy and to advance my chassis building skills. So far this hasn't been the case...probably operator error, I'm not one for reading instructions, and understanding them!

(Edit) * sorry just seen that you have answered this question!

Kind regards
Andrew

[Will L]

... I rather expected the Avonside jig to increase accuracy and to advance my chassis building skills. So far this hasn't been the case...probably operator error, I'm not one for reading instructions, and understanding them!

Andrew I was wondering if you pinned the centre Hornguides as advised in the Highlevel jig instructions and my post above. In the pictures I can see the hole but no sign of you having used a pin in it to precisely locate the horn guide. Using the Avonside jig where you put the guides on the chassis side before you assemble them, you must to something to ensure they go in on exactly the same place on both sides. Your picture sugests you didn't

[davebradwell]

Your frames are well out of square and bent in the photo. You might detach all the spacers at one end, alternating ends. Clamp chassis (horns up) against wood on right using a similar bit of wood and some G cramps. Push your long axle through and set it square using the lines. Check tops or bottoms line up (no twist) and re-solder. Just hope you have already put hornblocks in right place. Read one of Dave Holts past threads on how he uses his jig to get accurate results but no point in changing them now.

DaveB

[Andrew Bluett-Duncan]

... I rather expected the Avonside jig to increase accuracy and to advance my chassis building skills. So far this hasn't been the case...probably operator error, I'm not one for reading instructions, and understanding them!

Andrew I was wondering if you pinned the centre Hornguides as advised in the Highlevel jig instructions and my post above. In the pictures I can see the hole but no sign of you having used a pin in it to precisely locate the horn guide. Using the Avonside jig where you put the guides on the chassis side before you assemble them, you must to something to ensure they go in on exactly the same place on both sides. Your picture sugests you didn't

Hello Will
Yes I pinned them according to your advice. I'm unsure what picture gave you the impression that there wasn't a pin...? I did file them flush to the outside of the chassis afterward. I did find that one of the centre hornguides I'd soldered in at an angle, so had to remove it, clean up and re-attach. I'll double check tomorrow that all is well there.
Thanks for the observation.
Andrew

[Andrew Bluett-Duncan]

Your frames are well out of square and bent in the photo. You might detach all the spacers at one end, alternating ends. Clamp chassis (horns up) against wood on right using a similar bit of wood and some G cramps. Push your long axle through and set it square using the lines. Check tops or bottoms line up (no twist) and re-solder. Just hope you have already put hornblocks in right place. Read one of Dave Holts past threads on how he uses his jig to get accurate results but no point in changing them now.

DaveB

Hello Dave
I really like your idea of clamping the chassis together...wish I'd thought of that before.

So far as the hornguides being in the right place, I think all should be well there as they were attached in the Avonside jig which was set up with the coupling rods. I shall now go in search of Dave Holts thread(s) on the subject.
Thanks for your experience and ideas.
Andrew

[petermeyer]

Actually I put the whole chassis in a machine vice with smooth jaws but there's no reason why you couldn't use separate plates and clamps. The chassis is upside down with the brgs sticking up above the vice/blocks. If width of strips is chosen carefully the top edges (which are usually straight) can be stood on something flat. All you have to do is get the axles square across but my method isn't relevant here. Took to this after having an epic struggle with the frames in my L1 kit as they're quite long - have done Pacifics and others since and it's a doddle. Getting a chassis straight and true is important or it will go round curves better one way than t'other.

DaveB

I still can't imagine how this works. If you did manage to set the whole thing up square, is the vice not going to be a massive heat-sink to inhibit any soldering?

[davebradwell]

With a 65W iron Iand large bit I could get enough tacks in place to hold it together until doing a proper job later. Last time I got smart and put some strips of card along the vice jaws and that made a huge difference. It also gives somewhere for any protruding bits of tab to go.

With a machine vice I can just put a couple of parallels under the frames to sort out twist but that's straying off being more generally helpful. The main point is that once you stop the frames bending about you can put a square, or anything else up against them and you have a straight line to work from. I can'r see any other practical way to do it as every other way I tried either took ages or was hopeless because the frames are easily bent and probably not straight in the first place.

Back to the pannier chassis - having put in the hornguides, I suggest you leave them alone and sort out any centre errors by adjusting the coupling rod centres which will be much easier and you'll probably have to do it anyway.

DaveB

[Andrew Bluett-Duncan]

Peter

I wonder whether you have put the body on with the motor in that configuration? I'm doubtful that it would fit and not foul and short out on the top; also there is very little space between the firebox sides on the Wills saddle tank which are quite heavy castings. You may have to remove some metal to get the motor in. For these reasons I went for a different gearbox setup as previously described,

Hello Peter
Well, I think I've measured it out ok but I'll try it out, possibly this evening, when I get home and I'll let you know. I'm using one for Chris's new ish coreless motors which is only about 13mm dia. But as you say it may be too long...time will tell!

Kind regards
Andrew

Hello Peter
Thanks for your advice on spacer attachment and your concerns over the space I'm allowing for the motor being vertically mounted in the firebox. I have now tried it out and all appears ok. Take a look at the photos and tell me what you think, if you would. Having said that, I don't yet know if this quite small motor will have enough grunt to spin the wheels if necessary, we'll see.

Here you can see how far the motor extends.

IMG_1137.jpeg

And here if you peer into the murk, you can just about see the top of the motor through the safety valve hole in the top of the tank. It lies about 4mm or 5mm below the tank underside.

IMG_1135.jpeg

Here's hoping it all works out.
Kind regards
Andrew

[petermeyer]

Take a look at the photos and tell me what you think, if you would. Having said that, I don't yet know if this quite small motor will have enough grunt to spin the wheels if necessary, we'll see.

I have the same (High Level 1219) motor in mine but mounted horizontally up in the boiler and yes it has grunt enough.

Being somewhat pedantic maybe, but looking at the overhead shot and the relationship between the tank top and the spectacle rims, the tank body appears to be sitting utop the motor. This is compounded by the fact that you've removed the CSB spring wires and the hornguides have bottomed out thus lowering the motor in the frames too. Not forgetting that you have to allow some space for the the motor to move up and down for the CSB to work. It might work if you could angle the motor forwards subject to being able to move the High Level gearbox and spacers not being in the way.

Just my tuppence worth.

[Andrew Bluett-Duncan]

Take a look at the photos and tell me what you think, if you would. Having said that, I don't yet know if this quite small motor will have enough grunt to spin the wheels if necessary, we'll see.

I have the same (High Level 1219) motor in mine but mounted horizontally up in the boiler and yes it has grunt enough.

Being somewhat pedantic maybe, but looking at the overhead shot and the relationship between the tank top and the spectacle rims, the tank body appears to be sitting utop the motor. This is compounded by the fact that you've removed the CSB spring wires and the hornguides have bottomed out thus lowering the motor in the frames too. Not forgetting that you have to allow some space for the the motor to move up and down for the CSB to work. It might work if you could angle the motor forwards subject to being able to move the High Level gearbox and spacers not being in the way.

Just my tuppence worth.

Hello Peter
You know I hadn't factored in the wire removal and its effect on where the motor would sit.
I'll look at this over the weekend, all being well, and report back
Thanks again
Andrew

[Andrew Bluett-Duncan]

Progress at last. The chassis (frames ) are sprayed with Halfords grey primer and then Halfords satin black.

IMG_1286.jpeg

I make sure I always have the GW Wheel press the same way around for every wheelset. Otherwise, the quartering goes out...not sure I understand why but this way it works...!

5B12175C-581C-4802-BD04-265648E5E8A6_1_105_c.jpeg

And here you can see all three pairs of wheels are in place. The gearbox is working in the usual silky smooth way Chris Gibbons boxes do. Next is to see if I, or Geroge Watts have got the quartering right.

9F89642F-7636-4E28-ADA7-F59F177C684D_1_105_c.jpeg

Kind regards
Andrew

[Paul Willis]

I make sure I always have the GW Wheel press the same way around for every wheelset. Otherwise, the quartering goes out...not sure I understand why but this way it works...!

5B12175C-581C-4802-BD04-265648E5E8A6_1_105_c.jpeg

Not in the slightest bit daft! I can't remember why I made up this illustration of the parts of the wheel press but you can see clearly the complex coding system written on to the side of the wheel press...

GW Models quartering jig parts.JPG

Best,
Paul

[Jeremy Suter]

I make sure I always have the GW Wheel press the same way around for every wheelset. Otherwise, the quartering goes out...not sure I understand why but this way it works...!

5B12175C-581C-4802-BD04-265648E5E8A6_1_105_c.jpeg

Not in the slightest bit daft! I can't remember why I made up this illustration of the parts of the wheel press but you can see clearly the complex coding system written on to the side of the wheel press...

GW Models quartering jig parts.JPG

Best,
Paul

Why?
When I bought my jig back in the 1980s I thought that. I soon realised its no different which way round you use it and have put a lot of wheel sets together since.

If the Quartering on the Wheel Jig is slightly out say 46o left to right it will still be 46o right to left exactly the same. The only problem I had with the wheel jig is the slots for the crankpins not being close enough to the axle for the short throw of small wheels.

[Andrew Bluett-Duncan]

Paul and Jeremy, thank you both for your thoughts. I shall continue to do as I have done.... now looks like I'm doing out superstition rather than any good reason, however!

Kind regards
Andrew

[Philip Hall]

Like Jeremy, I’ve never even thought to keep the thing the same way round and it always works first time every time. I’ve got two of them now, one for 1/8” axles and the other for 3mm.

Philip