Kyle MPD

[nigelcliffe]

Replacing the direction switch in a Pentroller is trivial, give it to someone you trust with electrical things to swap.


- Nigel

[Julian Roberts]

Thanks Nigel for that reassurance.

I managed to be pretty sure everything worked as it should before going away for Easter. The object here was to swop the locos in the shed around. I had expected to take till the show at Perth in June to be at this stage. There is a derailment at the end, but I think this was because I'd just put a new fixing for the chassis to loco.

Back at home now I am focusing on developing the yard area for Perth rather than starting the next stage, the mainline. Perth is meant to be an opportunity to show and discuss layouts being constructed as well as completed ones. First I documented by photo all the droppers (each is numbered) so that I can locate them more easily once they're all covered up if necessary (hopefully not).

I painted all the plain track with the Jim SW recipe, Halfords spray camouflage brown. Then all the rail sides and fixings Humbrol leather, and some thinned down lighter brown was randomly put on some sleepers. Unfortunately I didn't photograph this before embarking on grottification. I've been bewitched by Boomer's scenic work



and he uses Liquitex Matte Medium instead of PVA. With a professional artist daughter, I decided to give this a try as if unsatisfactory she could always find a use for it. It was vastly expensive from the local art shop but is available two or three times cheaper from Amazon in larger bottles.

I have a pile of ash from our stove in the garden and I tried a bit of this on my test track. It looked too coarse so I pulverised it further with a pestle and mortar. This looked better but I wondered if the colours were right, as I mostly burn smokeless fuel ovoids or wood. I also took ash remaining in the stove which is more pink/white and tried that for the ash piles by the track side.

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I took a trip on the nearest steam railway and then after everyone had gone filled a takeaway meal container with grot from the loco yard track and another from the pile of ash. Using a tea strainer, the smallest stuff from the track was spread out and fixed down. As I expected, the colour is significantly more black than brown, but, having covered the whole yard area, I thought it looked a bit too coarse still compared with my main reference photo.

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So I again pulverized some in the pestle and mortar and spread it over. The main problem now was that Matte Medium has to be watered down with IPA and water, and if not watered down sufficiently leaves a whiteish mark. This could well be dirty water from the loco blow down, but I wasn't sure I could quite convince myself about that. So more pulverised filth was spread over.

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The main ashing out areas are obviously the ash pit and what I've called the ash road, piles of the ash are now in place but maybe need topping up further. Luckily more of this from the steam railway yard was just dust so didn't take more work in the pestle and mortar.

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On the main route to the mainline, which is further from the shed, I've used bought 2mm scale "ash". I've added the ash grot to the ground in the areas where ashing out might take place and been swept away.

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I had first made track level sides for the ash pit from black plastic, two layers about 2.5mm thick. This looked to be at rail level, but on trying to run a loco I found it was minutely too high. This is something I've found before, that it's frustratingly difficult and time consuming to file something like this to the right height which is a tiny bit lower than the rail. At least the filings could all be left around and contribute to the general grot.

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Overall I think my biggest mistake so far was when I made the turnouts I didn't want the TOU directly underneath as it's such a cliche having a hole underneath each point blade tip, and I made them with operating wires, to be worked from the side. However the hole I need there is far more obvious than it would be under the turnout, which will take a lot of thinking to conceal better, and only one hole would have been needed under the stretcher bar.

So far this has not depleted the Matte Medium bottle so very much.

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[Julian Roberts]

A couple more shots of the ash etc ballasted yard.

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The layout sits under a velux window and is seriously warm in this weather. I'm sandpapering the isolation gaps at some ends of longer lengths of rail to the thickness of this wet'n'dry paper. A couple of days ago everything was as usual, then suddenly nothing worked unless I had one turnout in a certain direction. I feared a fault with the Tortoise internal polarity switch; but to short circuit my panic mode took a relaxing cuppa in the cool, downstairs, and by the time I came back the fault had gone. So I'm hoping it was caused by one of the essential gaps closing up. Gaps within turnouts are secured with Exactoscale plastic fishplates.

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To demonstrate the essential purpose of the yard operation at the show in Perth, and to give the room needed for some movements, I've temporarily extended the track and rigged up a naff hand operated Brio style 60ft turntable in the exact place.

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[Philip Hall]

Julian,

I have long thought that small, prototypical gaps in our rails are not a good idea. Most of my track was laid around March last year with 0.5 - 0.7mm gaps between half metre lengths of rail, the recommendations in WE Ward-Platt's Railway Modeller article from 1965 which was republished in Scalefour News a year or so back. I was glad I did. In summer the gaps under the window had closed up a fair bit, opening up again in the winter. These are PVCu domestic windows in a very well insulated building, to the latest specifications, so they don't let heat in or out readily.

I also have a lift out section across the doorway, which consists of NS rail soldered to old Kings Cross brass chairs, in turn soldered to several layers of PCB, which is screwed down to the Contiboard base. When built there were some nice gaps and the whole unit slipped in easily and aligned first time, every time. It got fairly tight during the summer, but much looser in February when I had to be very careful in aligning the track. It's now back to normal again. This is not just track but the whole sub structure doing this!

The gaps do give a great audible effect (I also insist on a decent chamfer to the rail end top and sides (- again as per Mr W-P) and it seems we can confidently charge long trains around at speed - even faintly ridiculous speeds (!) with no problems. I wanted to be able to go into the railway room at any time and just run a train around without a hitch and (so far!) have been able to do just that.

Philip

[Will L]

Years ago when I did have a layout on the circuit, we found ourselves positioned directly under a large decorative glass roof light, at Lytham St Anna as I remember it. The weather was beautiful and the sun shone through the roof light and and we had an epidemic of shorts. However, once I had, very carefully, run a razor sawn through a fair number of the rail joints the problems went away and it never happened again.

[Julian Roberts]

Thank you Philip and Will for your helpful comments. Philip, unbelievably it was 5 years ago your Ward Platt article was published, Snooze 206. I tracked it down to check what he said about chamfering. I suspect that it's just a subtle polishing of the inside corners (at the rail joints) to ensure there are no sharp edges for the flange root more than anything more obvious...? Not that I've had any problems touchwood. In any case on this 7ft layout 10 mph is my yard speed limit and it will be about 30 on the mainline, very unambitious compared to you!

Tony Wilkins judges his gaps in turnouts by the 'rule of thumb' - the thickness of his thumbnail.
viewtopic.php?t=5241&start=550#p62188
I thought I'd done the same but maybe I forgot at these places. In the relative cool of the morning the gaps are not looking at all noticeable, but maybe in winter it will be different.

[Philip Hall]

Julian,

The chamfering is more pronounced than you might think, both on the top surface of the rails (a little less) and the sides top, web and bottom (more). This makes putting the fishplates (Peco) on much easier as well as helping the passage of wheels and avoiding any ‘catching’. Some might see my approach as slightly over the top but playing safe seems to be working, and for me reliability wins over appearance.

In your situation and speeds you can go for less in this regard. I hadn’t realised the republication was so long ago, but then, that was when the railway was started. Mr W-P wrote so much good sense and it stuck me with way back in 1965!

Philip

[Julian Roberts]

Pleased to say Kyle behaved perfectly at the Perth show this weekend, only one derailment - of the 0-4-4T as happened earlier this thread; the rear bogie needs attention. Probably the electrics have been well tested by recent extreme temperature below Velux window even as far north as Glasgow!

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The coal loading bank has been constructed as best I can from photos. That's as far as scenery has got for the Perth show. I pinned down an extra bit of track at the station end to lead into a sort of fiddleyard there.

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The layout had a quick daub with a £15 box of acrylics from a Cass Art sale to show intended colours of the scene on a brilliant late May day - heather, gorse/broom, hawthorn. Pladaig (before being reclaimed) by the turntable leading into machair, which doesn't exist really there, but is one of my all time favourite visions of the Highlands by the sea. The intention is to contrast the filth and grime of the railway with nature; beauty and the beast type of thing.

So about a day spent on stuff just for the show which will have no further use; the Heath Robinson turntable will remain until I've made the proper thing.

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It was really good to see friends from afar including Steve Chris, Dave, Mark, and meet so many others interested in the general topic and in Scalefour modelling; very much appreciation to Allan Goodwillie and Stan Moug (the show organiser) for getting this Scalefour "show within a show" organised.

Plus ca change...max 20 years between these two purchases

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[Julian Roberts]

Something bothering me is, what was the colour of the shed? There are very few colour photos. What I notice in all photos is that the loco doors end wall seems lighter coloured than the lengthwise wall along the siding. Actually very few show both at once, this is one of the exceptions.

Loco Shed + backscene.PNG

One of the best colour shots is of the water tower showing unarguably it's made of the surrounding light colour stone. The shed end wall in the distance might possibly be of the same stone. But in all photos the siding-side wall looks dark.

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The actual rock of the locality varies in colour from almost black near the sea to light grey to brownish red going towards the depot area.

Kyle station bridges and ramp walls are in the almost black colour stone, though every piece of stone slightly varies in colour to its neighbour.

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Nearby the Railway Terraces are in a more red hue with the end wall in a significantly lighter random variety of colours. The differently finished end wall is typical of buildings throughout the area.

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The piers of the bridge right by where the shed was show completely contrasting colours next to each other. The lighter coloured stone must have been the same as used for the water tower.

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The colour of anything in a photo varies, I'm finding, with all sorts of things and is completely untrustworthy, so I've made a start to record of the huge variety of actual colours to paint the model from at home.

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[Julian Roberts]

I wonder if people will see this (over the top niche?!) question. Does this check rail arrangement look naff, and should it be a single check rail joined up between the curve and the crossing, where there is a gap here? I'm aware of Martin Wynne saying that in sidings and yards anything goes, track was kept according to what was necessary, so can I get away with this without offending the critical professional's eye?

I'm not modelling precisely what was there as I've made the more modern type of trap point but retained the check rail as was previously there - and at that time the check rail was all one continuous length. But if the ararangement as I have it is believable I'll leave it as it is, or perhaps trim the check rail to end where the rail joint is.

The gap in question (arrow points to rail joint) -

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The context -

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Old picture showing continuous check rail with single blade trap

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LMS replacement, no check rail

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[Noel]

Looking at the photographs, I think it's more than just replacing the catch point. It appears that the whole shape of the curve has been altered, with the track next to the shed altered as well, possibly to remove the need for the check rail [it isn't present in the diesel photo], or perhaps because the sharpness of the curve was causing problems as locos got bigger with longer wheelbases?

[Jeremy Suter]

Julian
I would finish the check rail two sleepers ups o it does not interfere with the fish plate.

[Julian Roberts]

Thanks both - I'll likely go with your suggestion Jeremy. In fact there has got to be insulation at the track joint, another reason for keeping things simple. Noel, yes I think you're right. The LMS changed the turntable when it introduced Black 5s, and I imagine these changes went hand in hand. I made the Templot plan on the 1890s OS map so it's a general mix up but I'm not going to worry about that, but explains why I had quite a lot of trouble getting the design of this bit finalised.

Another view of the later set-up

[nigelcliffe]

ooooh! Engineer's inspection trolley in shot. Over the summer I finished the Wickham Type 27A trolley that Chris McCarthy started. It went down to Scaleforum for a run out recently.

When you're out running with Kyle, ask to borrow the trolley - its battery radio control, so runs on anything, even track is optional!

[Julian Roberts]

ooooh! Engineer's inspection trolley in shot....

Fabulous Nigel!

State of progress joining the mainline to the nearly completed yard.

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I've decided not to bother to continue with tearing up the centre of the track template. I had been concerned it wasn't sufficiently strongly attached to the cork (see earlier above) but there's absolutely no hint of it loosening in any way. It is quite a job - the polypropylene doesn't tear off in one strip but in lots of crumbly layers, making it hard to recreate a smooth surface. So track is now glued only to the polypropylene. I will do something to key the ballast into the cork, which will also hold the track to an extent - it is easy to drill holes through to the cork.

Joining the slip to the offstage unprototypical turnout took the most time. Insulating fishplates are needed. I bought some from C&L and suspect they are slightly more robust than the Exactoscale ones. An issue was the 0.3 gauge widening on the turnout meeting the straight slip - I widened the slip through the crossing. An easy job with the Masokits soldered chair system.

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The blades of the slip are operated remotely from the cess where I intend the linkage will be covered by point rodding etc. The mechanism is a similar principle to that in the video below. The rod is contained at its end in an oversize tube; if not thus constrained it tends to lift slightly and weave about.

One Tortoise needed to be fixed close to the board edge. I couldnt find anything about Tortoise offcentre mounting and their instructions referred to an extra bit of kit. Anyway I arranged the operating wire to be like this at the centre of the throw movement, and it works fine.

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I spent the best part of a day on the offstage turnout mechanism. It had always been a bit stiff - it was the first one I made. I had joined both stretcher bars to a single operating wire in a loop shape but to get the blade tip tight against the stockrail, particularly in the diverging direction, took more force than any others I've made. So I reluctantly snipped the loop so the force can be concentrated on the tip. The motor is under the track but the constraint on the unnecessary movement is remote.



[youtube]_ba7agd_bqw?si=LBmC1k9impk_hIDh[/youtube]

Dunno why that doesn't seem to work....this does -
https://youtube.com/shorts/_ba7agd_bqw? ... 9impk_hIDh

On the plain track no piece of rail will be more than two track panels length. Each panel will join the next with the EMGS fishplates fixed to one pair of rails only, allowing a sliding movement with heat expansion, a thumbnail gap between rails will be set at the much cooler temperature now.

[davebradwell]

So, remind me, why couldn't you mount the Tortoise uder the tiebar like the instructions say? It just happens to be the quickest way to do the job.

DaveB

[Julian Roberts]

Aha Dave yes you're right. It was a mixture of things. I really dislike the various holes under blade tips I've so often participated with as well as other unprototypical aspects of model turnouts like overscale joggles. Also, bear in mind I made these Masokits turnouts long before I bought the Tortoises.

The Masokits stretcher bars are thus:

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They are very ingenious in the way they fold up and give insulation from both blades to the centre section where a wire can be inserted if the 'ears' are folded out. (This is the offstage turnout of the previous post where I used these ghastly model joggles, as I do acknowledge there is likely higher possibility of total reliability the wheel will go the right way.)

I haven't got the instructions on me here but pretty certain they suggest the wire is used as an operating mechanism as that's what I did. Coming from my outlook that seemed a perfect solution - a mechanism separate from the immediate track area. Obviously it has entailed a fair degree of faff. While there is no 6mm gaping hole that is needed for the Tortoise operating wire, I've dug a trench under all moving parts to make sure no spare bits of cork or ballast foul anything, possibly even less satisfactory. But I'm not sure how I would have attached the Tortoise operating rod to the stretcher bar directly under its centre without something really rather ugly - but maybe there is some obvious way? But after all the Tortoise instructions are talking about drilling a hole in something like a Peco turnout with some sort of plastic tiebar I think.

Does that make sense?

Below you can zoom up on the slip nearest blades, there's almost nothing to see except the operating rod which will be covered up as in the photo of the catch point in HR days a few posts above. Actually the photo vcomes out more fuzzy here than on the original

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[Jol Wilkinson]

Julian,

I have used the Masokits tie-bars and found them very reliable. I have driven them with Cobalt, Tortoise and servos, using wire between the "ears" you refer to, which has a loop formed in it. The loop is about 1.5mm ID and the point motor drive wire passes up through a slot cut through the baseboard. It is therefore not very visible but I haven't had problems with stray ballast blocking it up.

I also used to add a second "cosmetic" tie-bar (as you have shown) but that was from an Ambis etch. It has simply folded fittings that soldered to the switch rail and the centre stretcher was a strip of very thin double sided pcb gapped for insulation. It had some flexibility and therefore reduced the stress on the soldered joints as the switches moved. Sadly that Ambis product has been replaced by one for which I lack the origami skills needed to fold up successfully.

Jol

[davebradwell]

They only need a loop in a piece of wire between the drive tabs and a slot about 2 X 1mm - drill larger hole and stick piece of paper over the top. Don't know how many Bob did but it must be 70 or 80. It's just that any linkage takes far longer and is in danger of reducing reliability. Important feature is that vertical operating wire offers far more travel than tiebar so blades are lightly sprung against stockrail. Tortoises make a horrible noise when attached to a thin board and you get speed and simplicity in exchange.

DaveB

[4479]

Dave is quite right; I've done at least 80 Tortoise installations and maybe more. I've lost count, but they are all variations on the same theme which uses Masokits stretcher bars and the single vertical wire to operate them. The advantages Dave outlines are reason enough - any visual disadvantage is minimal and more more less forgotten as one moves on to the next layout challenge. The holes I make are actually 2.3mm diameter to allow a circular jigsaw file blade, the kind sold to cut ceramic tiles into fancy shapes, in to englarge the hole into a slot. And because my baseboards are rather industrial in nature, with 12mm tops surmounted by cork underlay, I drill upwards through the 2.3mm pilot hole with a 10mm drill suitably taped to stop just short of the cork and allow plenty of room for the Tortoise wire to bend. And also, on the very rare occasion, to allow sighting upwards if a point motor needs to be taken out and replaced.

If I may, I'll further add that the photo showing the Tortoise operating wire in the offset position has a distinct disadvantage for anyone wanting to use it to operate a stretcher bar directly. The furthest right limit of travel of the throwarm is further away by several mm from the centre of the stretcher bar than when it is to the left. This means that the operating wire rises and falls by the same amount when the blades move. It will likely foul any loco moving across it when it's 'up' and may well slip out of engagement with the stretcher when 'down'. How do I know this? It may not be a problem for anyone like yourself using a remote mechanism, but the rising wire has to go somewhere and might, for instance, uproot a dummy handlever mounted above. Circuitron know all this of course and recommend fixing a bracket to the side of the Tortoise to support an extension to the throwarm with a new hole for the operating wire, offset by the same spacing as in the fulcrum. I've made a few from n/s strip and they work fine. Since pictures save a thousand words, I've attached a few - haven't done this before so apologies if it doesn't work. I'd share with you my similar dodge for working one end of a double slip with a single Tortoise but fear it might offend the more sensitive amongst our readers...

Bob How

[Julian Roberts]

Thank you for these ideas. Here are some closer up photos of the slip mechanism. Typically the irony is that the HR covered up the stretcher bar mechanism area, but I think by my 1949 date this would have gone.

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Important feature is that vertical operating wire offers far more travel than tiebar so blades are lightly sprung against stockrail.

Yes Dave, as I've set the turnouts up, the same applies. I haven't said but the photos show that the 0.45 operating wire is soldered into two sliding fit tubes, all soldered into one unit, to the necessary length, so there is no 'give' to this connection

viewtopic.php?t=8355 my post on Jan 2nd shows the motor continues to run a second or two after the throw of the blades is complete, giving the firm but springy push of blade against stockrail.

On my last post with the offstage turnout I spent time adjusting the Tortoise wire to give a rather greater amount of spring force to the diverging route as it was this one where for some reason the blade was reluctant to move fully home. You can hear it as the motor continues to work after the blades are thrown over longer than for the other route.

Bob I don't know if you'll see this, but why not share your double slip dodge? Yes your photos came out fine, many thanks. I'd also be interested to know how or if you manage to move the blades of a long switch (mine is an E) in their entirety, so that the other end of the planing moves right against the stockrail just as well as the tip does? I'm considering using two motors!

[4479]

Julian, don’t say I didn’t warn you - this isn’t one for the purists! It’s quite simple really, just an adaptation of the bracket arrangement for an offset Tortoise wire. I realised when installing my first double slip that the distance between the centres of the adjacent stretcher bars was only a gnats more than the spacing of the offset in the fulcrum. I can’t remember now what the geometry was of the slip but it’s likely to have been a 1 in 7 or thereabouts. Anyway it was a reasonably simple job to arrange a central wire pivoting in the hole just above the retaining screw and the second wire in the outboard offset position. The Tortoise is mounted between the two stretchers and as near as possible bisecting the slight difference in angle between the two. Easier said than done from below but it doesn’t have to be exact. The beauty of it, if I can use such a phrase here, is that the inherent flexibility in the operating wires easily copes with the slight misalignments involved and there is no hindrance in operation.

There was, I admit, a small amount of fettling required with the iron to get the blades to seat correctly but nothing that I haven’t encountered elsewhere and, once again, the soldered construction means that adjustments are easily made. I should have added in my first post that the brackets are made from scrap 18 thou n/s fret, courtesy of Dave, but I’m sure suitable strip is available elsewhere. I’ve now used this arrangement on two double slips, so four times in all, and will do so again when I can get round to installing a third double slip I made some time ago. I wouldn’t dream recommending this arrangement to anyone - all I can say is that after doing a fair bit of pointwork one gets brave enough to try anything, and it does work for me.

As for your query about moving the blades of a long switch, I’m afraid I can’t help you there as I’ve not made anything beyond a C switch. The S&C at the Cross was a very tight fit, so it went in the other direction if anything.

Bob

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[Julian Roberts]

That's great Bob, many thanks. If it works it's fine, that's the way I look at it.

[Terry Bendall]

And also not for the purist, my method of turnout operation as used on Elcot Road

For a single turnout

Picture 891.jpg

As can be seen the cranks are fixed with screws so adjustment is very easy

For a crossover linkage is used to allow one motor (the one in the middle of the picture), to operated both sets of blades

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The 3mm diameter rod passes through the baseboard and runs in a pice of brass tube. The rod is turned down to about 1,0mm at the top end to fit a functional crank above the baseboard which is to near scale size and which is connected to a Masokits stretcher bar.

Terry Bendall

[davebradwell]

I still don't see what's wrong with the very simple scheme in the instructions - the Tortoise has a bit of piano wire that pokes discreetly through the baseboard and drives the tiebar directly - it's all but invisible and very reliable because of the large overtravel and tolerance of mis-alignment. We are the engineer on our own railways, of course but I can't see what's gained from additional linkage except perhaps to dodge baseboard structure after a planning lapse. Possibly working 2 points from one motor is another but it's still quicker to use two. Strangely, it appears that far more folk add bits than don't and when I bought my first was surprised at the simplicity of their recommended scheme.

DaveB