Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

[Winander]

No the bearings rest on beams which means the bearings do not top out in usual conditions.

I think Rich is talking about when he is constructing the chassis Peter, so that he gets the frames square.

I did manage when 'tinning' the back spacer, to fill the damm slot

In this case there is no need to tin. Put flux at the joint on both parts (after cleaning them up if you are not using an acid/self-cleaning flux and they are not very dirty) and offer the iron up with solder on it. The trick is to get just the right amount of solder on the iron and you may want to cut small pieces to be better able to gauge how much. Once the parts a hot enough, the solder will flow into the joint. for a spacer, run the iron along the spacer to help the solder find the joint - you may have to add more solder. You should end up with a tidier joint than you have and your technique will improve with experience.

[47331xosIM]

I did manage when 'tinning' the back spacer, to fill the damm slot

In this case there is no need to tin. Put flux at the joint on both parts (after cleaning them up if you are not using an acid/self-cleaning flux and they are not very dirty) and offer the iron up with solder on it. The trick is to get just the right amount of solder on the iron and you may want to cut small pieces to be better able to gauge how much. Once the parts a hot enough, the solder will flow into the joint. for a spacer, run the iron along the spacer to help the solder find the joint - you may have to add more solder. You should end up with a tidier joint than you have and your technique will improve with experience.

Ah! Thanks Richard. That I didn’t realise. I have some small solder balls, so if no tinning is required I’ll try those against the part next time.

Peter, thanks for the heads up on the brake Roding. I am not sure how to make that removable, although I understand why it needs to be if the wheel sets can be dropped out. I’ll give that further thought.

Rich

[davebradwell]

To me, clean up holes means drill them the correct final size.

The edges of etched parts have a cusp on them. At best this is unsightly and at worst prevents parts meeting properly where they are soldered together. I suggest you would make a much better job if you cleaned up these edges properly with files.

I still can't see that you have worked out how to avoid frame assembly being twisted. Your horn cutouts are different heights because this is a hand drawn artwork, compounded by said etched cusp and the holes aren't exactly in the middle of hte axleboxes so if you do as you suggest what chance is there of the rear of the frames lining up? You'll have to find some sort of datum on either top or bottom of frames which is why you should have clamped frames together ages ago and filed the edges so these edges are the same on both.

You don't seem to grasp the concept of getting parts to fit closely and accurately, Rich. If you don't step up then I can see it ending badly. Have you numbered the axleboxes and horns yet?

DaveB

[petermeyer]

which is why you should have clamped frames together ages ago

This is the first time "clamping" of frames has been mentioned. I have been banging on about using the Poppy's jig to hold (clamp) the piece whilst assembling but the anti-jig-coalition don't agree.

For this it would help to have the con rods even though the bearings are already fixed as per picture.

locoboxchassis.jpg

[Jol Wilkinson]

Peter,
it isn't a question of being anti-jig but how the Poppy jig will work with moveable bearings in hornguides. The frames need supporting independent of the Poppy "axles". It is for this reason that, having considered buying a Poppy jig I didn't do so since I can't see how to use it with compensated/sprung chassis with some sort of adaptation. I even started drawing up artwork for a similar jig in etched n/s but still haven't worked out how to provide a satisfactory universal and adjustable frame support device.

You seem to have overlooked that the hornguide locations are defined by the artwork and, as has already been pointed out, the coupling rods will need to be matched to the hornguide centres, not the other war around as is usual. The rear end of the frames are supported by the compensated bogie and will need holding up in the Poppy jig to make any use of it. Likewise can the driving axle beams be fitted to each frame before these are assembled together?

Dave B,
how relevant is the differing height of the hornguides? It will, despite being hand drawn artwork, be relatively small and as the bearings are able to move up and down is not critical. Removing the etch cusp is a nice thing to do but not important in many cases, only where it has an effect on the relative alignment of critical items. While it can be argued that it is important for frame spacers, sometimes it is possible to remove more meatl than is needed, so worsening the accuracy of the fit. For my sins I don't remove the cusp on many etched parts and it hasn't stopped me from making well running models, even those with hand drawn artwork from the same designer as this kit!

This topic is getting rather negative and not providing much positive guidance at present. To to give Rich some hope, I know this kit has been a popular seller for LRM and the George Norton/Connoisseur's Choice range prior to that over many years. We have to assume that many have been built satisfactorily by following the instruction, written before the Poppy jig - and probably the other much more expensive chassis jigs - were introduced, other wise John at LRM (and the rest of us in these days of social media) would be well aware of it.

Jol

[Will L]

Are that's what a Poppy jig is like. I'm sorry but this best left for building locos with rigid chassis where the key datum line is the axle centre line and getting the these holes flat and square is the name of the game. Once you allow the axles to move up and down in the chassis, getting the chassis block itself nice and square is a different game and, whisper it quietly, more an matter if aesthetics than performance. Having suspension, compensation or springing, in your loco will compensate for any minor (note minor) lack of absolute squareness in the chassis.

Therefore for this chassis, the top edge over the driving wheels would appear to be an appropriate flat datum line, so assembling it on it back on a flat surface, say a bit of plate glass, against a set square to ensure it is square, is the way to go. Dave going on about clamping the halves together is all to do with ensuring that the both sides are really the same shape and that flat top line is really flat and the same on both halves.

I'm sorry but this advice comes a bit late. However the next bit may help.

Given the hand drawn nature of this chassis, once you have a chassis block square as you can get it, there is no absolute guarantee that the axle will be truly parallel horizontally, and having suspension effectively means they don't have to be vertically. For this reason you must then follow Dave's advice and make the rods so they fit the chassis.

One of the unmentionable truths in a hobby obsessed with accuracy is that a loco with axles not entirely parallel horizontally will run perfectly well. They may not be aesthetically pleasing if visible when viewed from below or embarrassingly detectable if you let some measuring obsessed wonky discover the distance between the axles is different from side to side, but, so long as the rods fit the side of the chassis they are on then you'll be OK. One of my early efforts was in the visible when viewed from below category, and while it had a number of faults as a model, poor running performance or a intendancy to fall of unexpectedly were not among them.

On another point. Soldering. The advice to tin joints before soldering is essentially wrong for our hobby. It causes fare more problems than it solves and the only occasion when its necessary for us is when soldering white metal to brass with 70 degree solder. Even that has becomes unnecessary if you use 100 degree solder.

It is very old advise, I learned it in metal work at school in the late 50s I think. Its OK if your happy for the whole job to get to a temperature well above the melting point of solder, which is definitely not a good idea when you've alreday got multiple joint on the job. As advice it certainly predates modern solders fluxes and electric soldering irons and probably relates to soldering tin plate with irons made of big chunks of copper heated in the fire. It is better quietly forgotten.

[Tony Wilkins]

I have a question.
What is the vertical half etched line on the inside of the frames just before the rear bogie intended for? I presume it is there for a reason.
Regards
Tony.

[davebradwell]

I've been out for the day so a lot has appeared since my post last night. Jol and Will, I agree with the points you make. To answer Jol's question about the horn openings being different heights, this was an attempt to explain to Rich why his plan was not going to work.

To come to your point, Will, about axles not being parallel, it may surprise you but I agree completely. A beauty of the jigging system, if done correctly, is that drawn artwork with different length coupling rods can produce a free running chassis. The key is that the original jig axles were of such a length that the coupling rods were placed at their final spacing so it "scaled" the difference when positioning the axleboxes. The Poppy jig changes the coupling rod spacing so does not give this feature. We all agreed it isn't an appropriate tool here, I thought this was established long ago.

I always found the biggest problem assembling frames was keeping them straight so a square could be used reliably. You can't get axles square to something waving about in the breeze. I now clamp them between 2 things that are straight and work from there.

I was hoping not to be seen as negative but could not join in congratulating Rich on his work when I could see shortcomings developing and advice from a number of sources being ignored. Soldering the raw etched end of spacers to frames didn't seem the best way to get a sound joint and anyway, spacers need filing to make them all the same length. Do we have axlebox numbers yet?

DaveB

[petermeyer]

The Poppy jig ... We all agreed it isn't an appropriate tool here, I thought this was established long ago.

That a chassis building jig was an inappropriate tool to build a chassis was not agreed by everyone here; what else is it appropriate for? Given that Rich has invested in one, it is worth considering how it might be put to use. And yes Jol, you can attach the beams individually to each frame from the inside via 0.7mm pins or 14BA nuts and bolts - I have used Alan Gibson crankpins.

[davebradwell]

Your objection is noted, Peter. Poppy jig won't prevent the chassis having some twist which is what was being discussed, especially as the frames appear to be as etched. If it was a computer generated rigid chassis all might be well as long as the wooden jig is true and square.

DaveB

[John Palmer]

I have a question.
What is the vertical half etched line on the inside of the frames just before the rear bogie intended for? I presume it is there for a reason.
Regards
Tony.

A good question; I too was wondering what its purpose might be. Also half-etched into the frame is what looks like the outline of a profile alteration that might give clearance over the bogie wheels if they are to swing beneath the frames. These half-etchings may be for purposes completely unconnected with each other - do the instructions give any clues?

[zebedeesknees]

I have a question.
What is the vertical half etched line on the inside of the frames just before the rear bogie intended for? I presume it is there for a reason.
Regards
Tony.

A good question; I too was wondering what its purpose might be. Also half-etched into the frame is what looks like the outline of a profile alteration that might give clearance over the bogie wheels if they are to swing beneath the frames. These half-etchings may be for purposes completely unconnected with each other - do the instructions give any clues?

My one is from an original George Norton kit, but the instructions, such as they were are long gone. The half etch is there, but not used. In 18.83 gauge with the correct size wheels in the bogie, there are no issues with the swing, but clearance with the steam brake linkage is concerning during the build. The bogie pivot is offset forward by about 2mm to minimise the swing of the front axle of the bogie.
It is my opinion that the half etched line is to allow for the frames at that point to be angled inward, followed by a radius to bring the frames straight again without being obvious, so as to accomodate thicker wheels with huge flanges!

Ted.

[47331xosIM]

Morning all,
Sorry I have had a busy weekend and work/family life as ever gets in the way! Firstly, can I say thank you to everyone for their contributions - I was surprised at the volume of input when I looked on this morning! Also, apologies to all if I am causing any disagreements - from my point of view while I can appreciate some comments may come over negative, I am not taking them in that way, but trying to understand the premise of what is being said and its purpose/actions. I did say I welcomed constructive criticism, and that is what I have got!!

I think one of the big aspects here, is that I am not only new to the forum, but also to kit building, so what may seem obvious to those who have been here several times before, probably isn't to me. I also think some people assume that something is or will be done, that is not intended in a derogatory fashion - we all do it, when we know what we are doing. I recall a time working in tech-support for HSBC Bank, when a chap rang up and said his keyboard no longer worked. The one thing I didn't check until the call had gone on for some 10 minutes was that the keyboard was actually plugged into the machine! To me it was obvious, to him (for whatever reason) it wasnt! I learnt there and then on that call that patience with people is a wonderful skill.

So, to try and pick up on some of the things that have been said or commented on:

To me, clean up holes means drill them the correct final size. The edges of etched parts have a cusp on them. At best this is unsightly and at worst prevents parts meeting properly where they are soldered together. I suggest you would make a much better job if you cleaned up these edges properly with files.

This could well be one of those obvious bits. I will have another read of the start of the instructions, but I am sure that is not commented anywhere in the various pages. Given the way etching works (if I have understood correctly) your comment makes sense Dave, but I had not realised that needed to be done.

I still can't see that you have worked out how to avoid frame assembly being twisted. Your horn cutouts are different heights because this is a hand drawn artwork, compounded by said etched cusp and the holes aren't exactly in the middle of hte axleboxes so if you do as you suggest what chance is there of the rear of the frames lining up? You'll have to find some sort of datum on either top or bottom of frames which is why you should have clamped frames together ages ago and filed the edges so these edges are the same on both.

You don't seem to grasp the concept of getting parts to fit closely and accurately, Rich. If you don't step up then I can see it ending badly. Have you numbered the axleboxes and horns yet?
DaveB

I have measured the depth of the horn cutouts and they are all basically the same a mere fraction of a mm difference. I have sat the frames either side of the frame stretchers and put a spirit level on an it showed level while the frames were sat on a glass board. I concluded from that, that however they were drawn they were accurate. Now I could have mis-understood something here, and please do say if I have, I want to get this right, but sometimes I can take a little bit of time to 'cotton on'.

Also the instructions make no references to clamping, and I dont recall that having been mentioned on here before, hence why I had not done so. How would you clamp them together? Presumably some form of wooden block between then around the clamps? Yes the axle boxes are numbered so that each goes back in the same place.

Peter,
it isn't a question of being anti-jig but how the Poppy jig will work with moveable bearings in hornguides. The frames need supporting independent of the Poppy "axles". It is for this reason that, having considered buying a Poppy jig I didn't do so since I can't see how to use it with compensated/sprung chassis with some sort of adaptation.

Jol, thanks for the input. I will admit I had an understanding (possibly wrongly) that with the poppy 'axles' through the bearings, which were then sat in the horn guides, that would have provided a square frame. I acknowledge that the axles can move horizontally in the poppy box, but I dont believe they can once through the two bearings and located in the frames? Do I read your comment as saying the frames need to be supported independent of the bearings (which become one aspect of getting things square) and if so, when building kits, how do you support the frames to get them in the right position before soldering together?

If its best for me not to use the Poppy jig I'll not use it. I felt it was something of an extra pair of hands to hold things, which was really when I took the plunge and got it, but if it is just complicating the entire thing, I'll set it to one side.

You seem to have overlooked that the hornguide locations are defined by the artwork and, as has already been pointed out, the coupling rods will need to be matched to the hornguide centres, not the other war around as is usual. The rear end of the frames are supported by the compensated bogie and will need holding up in the Poppy jig to make any use of it. Likewise can the driving axle beams be fitted to each frame before these are assembled together?

I appreciate that comment was to Peter, but from my point of view, yes I get that the coupling rods need to matched to the horn guides - again it could be my lack of skill/understanding/comprehension but with this kit I dont see how it could be done the other way around?

I know this kit has been a popular seller for LRM and the George Norton/Connoisseur's Choice range prior to that over many years. We have to assume that many have been built satisfactorily by following the instruction, written before the Poppy jig - and probably the other much more expensive chassis jigs - were introduced, other wise John at LRM (and the rest of us in these days of social media) would be well aware of it.

I must admit that was one of the reasons I looked at this one rather than others, although I did not realise the issues of getting balances right with a 0-4-4 design. I also admit, that I got the order of soldering the spaces wrong, and some that are attached should have been soldered after the other side frames had been added.

Therefore for this chassis, the top edge over the driving wheels would appear to be an appropriate flat datum line, so assembling it on it back on a flat surface, say a bit of plate glass, against a set square to ensure it is square, is the way to go. Dave going on about clamping the halves together is all to do with ensuring that the both sides are really the same shape and that flat top line is really flat and the same on both halves. I'm sorry but this advice comes a bit late.

Will, I appreciate everyone will do things slightly different to everyone else, but please dont apologise for late advice - as the old saying goes, better late than never!

On another point. Soldering. The advice to tin joints before soldering is essentially wrong for our hobby. It causes fare more problems than it solves and the only occasion when its necessary for us is when soldering white metal to brass with 70 degree solder. Even that has becomes unnecessary if you use 100 degree solder.

Noted. I'll change the way I do things.

I have a question. What is the vertical half etched line on the inside of the frames just before the rear bogie intended for? I presume it is there for a reason.

A good question; I too was wondering what its purpose might be. Also half-etched into the frame is what looks like the outline of a profile alteration that might give clearance over the bogie wheels if they are to swing beneath the frames. These half-etchings may be for purposes completely unconnected with each other - do the instructions give any clues?

Hi Tony/John, The rear of the frames are narrower than the middle, they taper as you head from the cab to the bunker, the the half-etched vertical line is to allow the rear of the frames to be bent inwards slightly. I have yet to understand/work out how to get an even taper on both sides, but I will! The outline over the bogie wheels allow part of the frames to be cut away if the loco is going to be working on tight curves. I have decided not to do that as I initially the loco will be displayed on a small diorama (assuming its good enough when finished!) and if this goes ok and I go onto build other locos, the eventual space for the layout will allow me to have wide radius curves.

I always found the biggest problem assembling frames was keeping them straight so a square could be used reliably. You can't get axles square to something waving about in the breeze. I now clamp them between 2 things that are straight and work from there.

I was hoping not to be seen as negative but could not join in congratulating Rich on his work when I could see shortcomings developing and advice from a number of sources being ignored. Soldering the raw etched end of spacers to frames didn't seem the best way to get a sound joint and anyway, spacers need filing to make them all the same length.

I would far rather people say you are making a right c*ck up of that kit now, than later on say well I could see what was going to happen but didn't comment! I have a lot to learn with this I know that, and everyone's input is valuable. As a friend of mine says, call a spade a bloody spade and people know what you are saying. I totally mis-understood something earlier on, which probably hasn't helped me to be honest, I know I am not a fast learner, but it wasnt that I have ignored anyone, just probably not grasped or realised something.

I have asked the question further up I think, but the you say you clamp them between two things that are straight - what are the two things that you use? I am just trying to understand what you are saying correctly, so that I do not have an assumption in my head that is wrong.

I have ordered the wheels from Gibson's at the end of last week, so they should be here shortly if that helps.

Thanks again to everyone, I am not against taking everything apart and starting again if needs be. I am enjoying the work on this kit (even if I am finding it a little frustrating at times) and would like to think I can get something to a decent output that runs smoothly, I just may have a bigger learning curve ahead than I expected.

Cheers
Rich

[davebradwell]

To briefly comment on your replies, Rich, it's those fractions of a mm difference between the hornguides and the top of the frames that are important in this game. Frames won't be quite the same shape and that difference can cause trouble later - it depends on what you do and is why some edges are made accurate and called datums for further work. Similarly your use of a spirit level. This is clockmaking not carpentry. The holes in your axleboxes are probably up to a thousandth of an inch off-centre so if you turn one of them round that may be a couple of thou' change and it will make a detectable difference. Do you get the idea? Your Poppy jig can get an axle square to the frames but you'll have to do something else to avoid them being twisted - I used to just sight across the top in my early years but you're looking for tiny errors.

Sounds like you might need some tools - Terry Bendall wrote a series recently in S4News.

Again, this is just meant to be helpful.

DaveB

[47331xosIM]

To briefly comment on your replies, Rich, it's those fractions of a mm difference between the hornguides and the top of the frames that are important in this game. Frames won't be quite the same shape and that difference can cause trouble later - it depends on what you do and is why some edges are made accurate and called datums for further work. Similarly your use of a spirit level. This is clockmaking not carpentry. The holes in your axleboxes are probably up to a thousandth of an inch off-centre so if you turn one of them round that may be a couple of thou' change and it will make a detectable difference. Do you get the idea? Your Poppy jig can get an axle square to the frames but you'll have to do something else to avoid them being twisted - I used to just sight across the top in my early years but you're looking for tiny errors.

Sounds like you might need some tools - Terry Bendall wrote a series recently in S4News.

Again, this is just meant to be helpful.

DaveB

Thanks Dave, as ever taken in that way. I'll see if I can find the articles you referred to in the PDF copies of S4 News. Must admit, I could fully appreciate 1mm out causing an issue, but I had not realised that the "fractions of a mm" would have made the difference. I'll have a think overnight, but what I may do at this point is to unsolder the framer bearers, clean everything up and drop back a couple of steps, it seems the logical approach to allow everything to be double checked.

Rich

[Winander]

John Brighton on coupling rods
https://www.scalefour.org/members/newsarchive/dl.php?f=S4-142.pdf
Terry Bendall "Making A Start"
https://www.scalefour.org/members/newsarchive/dl.php?f=S4-213.pdf - Part 1
https://www.scalefour.org/members/newsarchive/dl.php?f=S4-214.pdf - Part 2
https://www.scalefour.org/members/newsarchive/dl.php?f=S4-215.pdf - Letters
If you want to drop me an email at virtual@scalefour.org I have two pdf documents containing just the articles of interest to save you downloading multiple magazines from the archive.

You need a horizontal datum and a vertical datum.

I think the point Dave was making was to compare the frames to see if they match because it is hand drawn artwork (c.1991). You would do this by clamping the sides together, and if there are apparent discrepancies, you must pick suitable data (apparently the plural of datum) common to each side to correct it. This would likely (as you are building it compensated or sprung) be one or more hornblock cutouts, specifically a top edge and one side. As far as good running is concerned, not much else will contribute. These data are forever inaccessible when hornguides are fitted, so there is a need to 'transfer' them to something accessible to measure from - perhaps one end of the frames as the vertical datum and a top or bottom frame edge as the horizontal.

If you haven't soldered it all together you may still be able to validate a vertical datum by putting the frames with their outside faces together and axles through the bearings.

I always found the biggest problem assembling frames was keeping them straight so a square could be used reliably. You can't get axles square to something waving about in the breeze. I now clamp them between 2 things that are straight and work from there.

I was waiting for Dave to clarify this and perhaps this'll prompt him. I would interpret this as clamping something rigid to the frame to stiffen it so that you can easily and reliably hold a square against it.

[davebradwell]

To respond, Richard, I'm trying to avoid giving specific how to instructions because there's plenty of others doing that and I don't wish to confuse, just point out specific traps. I'm expecting Rich to find his own solutions with stuff he has around him. You guessed correctly about keeping frames straight and clamping to one side of the Poppy jig might do it, subject to sorting the twist, of course, and square can just be used as a check.

A suggestion for lining up frames when clamping together would be to push bits of scrap fret through the slots for the frame spacers. This way, when the tops of the frames are made the same, then the frame spacers would come out level. Axle or hornblocks must define fore/aft position, of course.

To get bends on both frames the same, Rich, all you have to do is lay them side by side on a flat surface and compare them. It's a trial and error process as when you do a trial assembly they'll probably need a tweak so back to the flat surface again.

DaveB