Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:50 pm

Daddyman wrote:The upper arrangement in your photo is correct.

Assuming you mean the photo with the bearings in the slots that does not look right to me.
IMHO the lower frame is showing the outside, with ashpan rivets. So the bearings on this are the wrong way round, surely the circular bosses should be to the inside.
The upper frame is showing the inside, so those bearings also wrong way round as the circular bosses should be showing. And the left hand ode is not in the slot properly either.
Or is it me confused? Best to measure over the frames with the spacers in place* and compare with the wheel back to back. I doubt you will have room for the circular bosses to be on the outside.
*Just hold them in place with blutack while measuring.
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Keith
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Daddyman » Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:07 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
Daddyman wrote:The upper arrangement in your photo is correct.

Assuming you mean the photo with the bearings in the slots that does not look right to me.
IMHO the lower frame is showing the outside, with ashpan rivets. So the bearings on this are the wrong way round, surely the circular bosses should be to the inside.
The upper frame is showing the inside, so those bearings also wrong way round as the circular bosses should be showing. And the left hand ode is not in the slot properly either.
Or is it me confused? Best to measure over the frames with the spacers in place* and compare with the wheel back to back. I doubt you will have room for the circular bosses to be on the outside.
*Just hold them in place with blutack while measuring.

You're right, I think _I looked too quickly!

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:37 pm

I think Keith is right. The normal convention is that the flat face of the bearing goes to the outside of the frames.

Rich, any sideplay in the wheels/axle is managed by using suitable thin 1/8" ID washers between the back of the wheel and the flat face of the bearing. There are some etched ones on the n/s chassis etch but Alan Gibson also does a pack of different thickness turned brass ones.

As this is an 0-4-4T you will need only minimum side play on all axles. I think .5mm should be enough in total (but others may have a different view)

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby davebradwell » Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:47 pm

Don't both frames in the photo represent the same orientation - the upper is the inside of the frames so the rim is on the outside as shown in the lower photo. This would seem ok to me but I've no idea what the designer had in mind so would fit them according to the space between the bosses on the backs of the wheels. This will likely require some careful measurement after the frames are assembled.

Clever bit now is to get axles square across frames and frames straight and not twisted, hence need for horizontal datum. Have you thought this through, Rich? Are the tops of the frames above the horn cut-outs at the same level so suitable for this?

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Stephan.wintner » Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:50 pm

Just for clarity Rich - as i think you understood, and several folks said - you need to mark the bearings, and ensure each bearing always goes into one particular frame slot, in the same orientation, every time. And that should be determined and fixed before any filing to ease any such fits.

Your question about "there is a right and a wrong way round for the bearings, as you'll see from the image below, but again nothing in the instructions to suggest to a beginner which is which?" could suggest you've overlooked that, but hopefully I'm only misunderstanding.

Stephan

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Winander » Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:56 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Or is it me confused?

I don't think so Keith.

I would guess, looking at what has been identified as the compensation beam, that it rests on the raised part of the bearing, and would concur with the consensus, they go on the inside.

47331xosIM wrote:I am assuming the larger of the two are 1/8 inside diameter for the driving wheel axles, and that the smaller are the bogie bearings?

They are.

With regard to cutting things off the fret, I too don't succeed using a Stanley type knife. If you have any broken hacksaw blades - never throw them away - you can grind one to a chisel and use that.
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby 47331xosIM » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:29 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
Daddyman wrote:The upper arrangement in your photo is correct.

Assuming you mean the photo with the bearings in the slots that does not look right to me.
IMHO the lower frame is showing the outside, with ashpan rivets. So the bearings on this are the wrong way round, surely the circular bosses should be to the inside.


Thanks Keith (and @Daddyman). I'll amend in the morning, they are currently located in the frames with a bit of blutak.

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Rich, any sideplay in the wheels/axle is managed by using suitable thin 1/8" ID washers between the back of the wheel and the flat face of the bearing. There are some etched ones on the n/s chassis etch but Alan Gibson also does a pack of different thickness turned brass ones. As this is an 0-4-4T you will need only minimum side play on all axles. I think .5mm should be enough in total (but others may have a different view)


Thanks Jol. I am going to order the wheelsets from Alan Gibson tomorrow, so I'll order a pack of those washers at the same time, as no doubt they'll come in at different times. Glad I waited before ordering now!!

davebradwell wrote:This will likely require some careful measurement after the frames are assembled. Clever bit now is to get axles square across frames and frames straight and not twisted, hence need for horizontal datum. Have you thought this through, Rich? Are the tops of the frames above the horn cut-outs at the same level so suitable for this?

I had a feeling that some measurements would be required!! The tops of the frames when laid on top of each other and aligned with the printed lines on my glass board look identical, but I'll do some checking and measuring tomorrow. The next task in the instructions it remove the P4 spacers from the etch and solder, but I'll go with Keith's idea of blutaking them I am place first to make sure things are right before soldering.

Stephan.wintner wrote:Just for clarity Rich - as i think you understood, and several folks said - you need to mark the bearings, and ensure each bearing always goes into one particular frame slot, in the same orientation, every time. And that should be determined and fixed before any filing to ease any such fits.

Your question about "there is a right and a wrong way round for the bearings, as you'll see from the image below, but again nothing in the instructions to suggest to a beginner which is which?" could suggest you've overlooked that, but hopefully I'm only misunderstanding.


Stephan, thanks. Yes I'll ensure the same bearings are kept with the same slot. With regards the notes, I haven't seen anything, and having read through them a couple of times before starting, I dont recall anything, but again another task for tomorrow is to go back and double-check.

Winander wrote:With regard to cutting things off the fret, I too don't succeed using a Stanley type knife.

How do you tend to cut things out of a nickel silver fret Richard?

Daddyman wrote:Your next problem is going to be that both Mike Meggison and I found that the compensation beams allow the bearings too much up-and-down movement in the slots on this kit, such that they can drop out of the frames if I recall correctly. Mike Meggison created a work-around, but I can't remember what it was. He has a thread on RMWeb .... This thread will give you lots of hints and tips for loco building anyway:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/101015-mi ... nt-4907693

Thanks for that. I'll have a read through that topic, I hadn't come across that before. But I'll see if I can find the entry for the G5 and see what Mike says about the bearing movement. Three out of the four do seem very free moving, but I am assuming, thats a good thing in the main!

As ever, thanks everyone, it is appreciated.

Rich

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby 47331xosIM » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:50 pm

Daddyman wrote: The thread will give you lots of hints and tips for loco building anyway:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/101015-mi ... nt-4907693


Having just been and found the thread and searched back and read about Mike's build of the G5 kit, this is the post that @Daddyman was referring to I think. I'll note it here for my own reference, and anyone else that may in future come across this thread and be building the kit. It seems to make sense, but I'm not taking it in fully at nearly 1am - another one to read tomorrow! Shame rmWeb had the server fault and lost all the images, really has wrecked a number of the threads! I'll PM Mike and ask if he has the images showing how he built the compensation beams and driving wheel areas - if he has I'll ask if he can possibly post them on this thread for reference.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/101015-mikemegs-workbench-building-locos-of-the-north-eastern-lner/?do=findComment&comment=3026546

Rich

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:09 am

Rich,

Richard (Winander) refers to a small chisel made from a hacksaw blade.

I've attached a pdf of this useful tool. I use it with a 2oz. hammer on a piece of Formica faced chipboard. It is the best way I have ever found for removing parts from etched sheets,

The Formica surface prevents distortion of the etch but is soft enough not to blunt the chisel. A piece of plain mdf would possibly do just as well. I was given my chisel by the late John Hayes (who was an exceptional modeller and wrote many articles for MRJ) many years ago and has only needed the very occasional re-sharpening.

Jol


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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Will L » Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:47 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:...Richard (Winander) refers to a small chisel made from a hacksaw blade...

Joel and Richard are quite right about a chisel like tool as very good way to get bits out of an etch fret but there is more too it than that. We have been round this topic before, see this post in Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos? for my take on it and read on a couple of posts to see Joel's full set of useful things you can make out of an old hacksaw blade. Read more of this thread and you will find those who prefer a Xuron Cutter too, but how you use a cutter to extract some of the more fiddly bits from an etch I'm not sure.

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Daddyman » Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:49 pm

Will L wrote: you will find those who prefer a Xuron Cutter too, but how you use a cutter to extract some of the more fiddly bits from an etch I'm not sure.

You sacrifice the etch - cut it up until you can get to the bit you need. Mike Edge always complains about people trying to leave a pristine empty etch when they've finished.
I use these: https://www.air-craft.net/acatalog/Xuro ... utter.html

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:28 pm

Disagree, I prefer to leave the etch intact as I proceed. It keeps the parts together and, if a numbered scan of the etch is included in the instructions, helps identify where they are.

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:48 pm

47331xosIM wrote: But I'll see if I can find the entry for the G5 and see what Mike says about the bearing movement. Three out of the four do seem very free moving.
Rich

Hi Rich.
Catching up with this topic, Looking at the pictures of the frames toward the bottom of page 2, I notice that one of the rear slots for the bearings has a small cusp remaining on the inside of the fold up piece, which no one else has commented on. This is most likely the cause of the binding bearing.
Regards
Tony.
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Will L » Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:48 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Disagree, I prefer to leave the etch intact as I proceed. It keeps the parts together and, if a numbered scan of the etch is included in the instructions, helps identify where they are.

I'm going to have to agree with Joel again. Each to the own of course, but If you start breaking up the fret to get the bits out, you're going to end up with lots of odd bits of etch with attached little bits if kit and finding the little bit you need next will become much more of a problem.

Of course the GCG* if fully in favour of the practice as he likely to receive many additional supplications.

*GCG for new readers see here

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby 47331xosIM » Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:58 pm

Will L wrote:
Jol Wilkinson wrote:Disagree, I prefer to leave the etch intact as I proceed. It keeps the parts together and, if a numbered scan of the etch is included in the instructions, helps identify where they are.

I'm going to have to agree with Joel again. Each to the own of course, but If you start breaking up the fret to get the bits out, you're going to end up with lots of odd bits of etch with attached little bits if kit and finding the little bit you need next will become much more of a problem.


I think I would possibly agree with Joel and Will. I am not bothered about a pristine etch (although I suppose there is a view that if the etch remains as complete as possible at the end, there are some sizeable pieces of scrap etch that could well come in useful in the future?) but for me, its about keeping the various small parts together for as long as possible!

Thanks to all for the suggestions on the chisel. I'll see if I can fashion one up from an old blade and see what happens.

Tony Wilkins wrote:Catching up with this topic, Looking at the pictures of the frames toward the bottom of page 2, I notice that one of the rear slots for the bearings has a small cusp remaining on the inside of the fold up piece, which no one else has commented on. This is most likely the cause of the binding bearing. Tony.


Thanks for that Tony, yes thats what was causing the bearing to bind, its gone now! The frame spacers are cut out and I have started to put them in place, held by blue tac. Once complete then a line-by-eye (or positioning a 90 degree L shape straight edge) should give a reasonable view of whether everything is straight, but how do people check its is as close to 100% as possible? Axle rod through the bearings?

Rich

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby petermeyer » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:07 am

47331xosIM wrote:The frame spacers are cut out and I have started to put them in place, held by blue tac. Once complete then a line-by-eye (or positioning a 90 degree L shape straight edge) should give a reasonable view of whether everything is straight, but how do people check its is as close to 100% as possible? Axle rod through the bearings?


I have not heard of nor used the bluetac method. It is common practice to solder one spacer to one side and another to the other side first. If you get those on straight and square you are half way there. This is not always easy to do.

As stated before, having previously used the graph paper and set square methods, I now finally assemble the chassis in a jig with rods through the axle hole bearings.

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby 47331xosIM » Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:05 pm

petermeyer wrote:
47331xosIM wrote:The frame spacers are cut out and I have started to put them in place, held by blue tac. Once complete then a line-by-eye (or positioning a 90 degree L shape straight edge) should give a reasonable view of whether everything is straight, but how do people check its is as close to 100% as possible? Axle rod through the bearings?


I have not heard of nor used the bluetac method. It is common practice to solder one spacer to one side and another to the other side first. If you get those on straight and square you are half way there. This is not always easy to do.

As stated before, having previously used the graph paper and set square methods, I now finally assemble the chassis in a jig with rods through the axle hole bearings.


Thanks Peter,
I think the query pointed out before was that there is a suspicion that the kit etches have come from hand drawn artwork, rather than computer CAD, so the idea (as I understand it) was to make sure everything was square and ok before soldering the frame spacers.

I have now ordered the wheels from Gibsons so will possibly wait for those to arrive and double check with the axles before soldering anything up.

Rich

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:36 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Richard (Winander) refers to a small chisel made from a hacksaw blade.


A word of caution ...

Hacksaw blades are made from different materials. Carbon steel blades are fairly flexible but would not be suitable for this application. High speed steel blades would be suitable but they are quite brittle. Flexible high speed steel blades offer a good compromise. Using a hammer, however small on a chisel made from a high speed steel blade may result in it breaking and bits of the blade shooting off in different directions including towards the face and eyes.

An alternative would be to use a piece of silver steel, about 4mm diameter, file the end to a chisel blade shape and then harden and temper it. That process has been mentioned on here before see
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7633&p=91660&hilit=hardening+and+tempering#p91660

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby 47331xosIM » Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:21 pm

Winander wrote:They are held fortnightly on a Wednesday the next one is a week on Wednesday 5th October. It is extremely useful to be able to discuss things "face to face", I know it has helped me tremendously. You can make a start this Thursday..


Hi Richard,
Apologies, a family issue cropped up yesterday morning and it was 9pm before I got home, so didn't get chance to join the Zoom. I'll do my best to make the next one in a fortnight.
Rich

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby 47331xosIM » Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:32 pm

Managed to make some further progress with the frames. The one problem I have, which is entirely may fault and I did not realise until 'after' the event, was that having read through the instructions few times and deliberated on Tuesday evening how best to solder the frame stretchers, I undertook the actual task without referring to the instructions - 'assuming' that I new the order things came in! Needless to say I mixed the order up, although with one exception that is easily unsoldered, I don't think it really matters.

So I started by soldering the axlebox guides down

IMG_2448.jpeg


This seemed to work well and a small amount of filing, the respective bearings slid up and down easily within the respective positions, so that gave me a boost to continue to the stretchers.

I acquired a pack of 'hair grips' from the local Wilko store, for clamping the frames lightly to a piece of wood while the soldering was done. The front spacer was then bent, and soldered into the slot, carefully positioning the tab.

IMG_2449.jpeg


This was then followed by the back mid-spacer and the rear spacer. The next two were then out of sequence (which explains why I found it hard going to get them right!) but a bit of patience, trial and error and several attempts got me there.

IMG_2454.jpeg


So we now have this, which I have to say I am quite proud of. If anyone can see anything wrong, please do shout, advice on soldering is welcome etc, but I think it looks quite neat for what is my first ever loco frames!

IMG_2458.jpeg


So the next task is to attach the right hand side frames, ensuring everything is true. I took the plunge in the end and purchased one of the Poppy's Loco Builder Boxes, which also arrived this morning, and is now built up and drying overnight. I think that will help to ensure everything is perfectly lined up and straight.

My plan is to assemble the left hadn't frames on the box, with the right hand frames loose, then to use the tab and slots on three of the frame stretchers (plus the axle boxes) to align the other frames and tack solder them in place. Once secure and tack soldered, I'll take it off the box, and use the glass board to make sure all is level and straight and a 'wooden right angle' (cannot remember the right name for these) to ensure all is square, before returning it to the loco builder box and properly soldering the right hand frames on.

Thanks to everyone for their help and encouragement so far. Slow progress, but I like slow and steady!

Rich
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby petermeyer » Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:41 am

Good to see the steady progress so far Rich. Quite a few observations but, is the stretcher for the bogie round the right way and should there be a nut/bolt soldered to this to hold the bogie?

Might be an idea to clear all the holes for the compensation beam and brake hangers before you get much further.

In terms of squareness, the most vital is that the axles are square and parallel to each other in all planes. In order to get this done in the builder box you'll need to have made up the coupling rods and use these to set the wheelbase.

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby Daddyman » Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:17 am

In your second photo of the front frame spacer, it looks like the spacer might not be fully home in its slot.

Also, have you thought about how you're going to allow for bogie swing? Not sure what your curves are like (if you have any), but on the real thing the frames curved inwards at the end. Seem to remember Mike Meggison - or someone on his RMW thread - joggled the frames inwards.

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby davebradwell » Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:15 am

Ref Petermeyer's comment - you can't use the coupling rods to set the axle spacing because it's already fixed. You have to use the existing axlebox positions to adjust the coupling rods and your Poppy jig won't do this. I've referred to John Brighton's writings earlier as he does it this way round. Can't see how Poppy jig will prevent frames being twisted either as axleboxes can rise and fall in hornguides.

Did you check all frame spacers were the same width?

DaveB

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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby 47331xosIM » Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:24 pm

petermeyer wrote:Good to see the steady progress so far Rich. Quite a few observations but, is the stretcher for the bogie round the right way and should there be a nut/bolt soldered to this to hold the bogie?

Might be an idea to clear all the holes for the compensation beam and brake hangers before you get much further.

In terms of squareness, the most vital is that the axles are square and parallel to each other in all planes. In order to get this done in the builder box you'll need to have made up the coupling rods and use these to set the wheelbase.


Hi Peter,
Yes, I have just double checked both with the instructions and the hand drawn instruction sheet, the hole for the bogie pivot sits in between the two bogie wheels as it stands, and looking through them at 90 degrees everything lines up. Sorry if this is a silly question, but when you say clear all the holes for the compensation beam and brake hangers, what do you mean?

IMG_2454.jpeg


Daddyman wrote:In your second photo of the front frame spacer, it looks like the spacer might not be fully home in its slot.

Also, have you thought about how you're going to allow for bogie swing? Not sure what your curves are like (if you have any), but on the real thing the frames curved inwards at the end. Seem to remember Mike Meggison - or someone on his RMW thread - joggled the frames inwards.

Thanks, I have checked and yes it is fully home, despite how it looks in the photo! I did manage when 'tinning' the back spacer, to fill the damm slot! Too much solder on the iron, lesson learnt there. There will be very minimal curves on the photo plank - and should the big layout develop, It should have 9-10 foot diameter curves, so I dont think that should be an issue. The frames at the back of the loco are tapered. Not totally sure how to get this precise, but I have an idea using a home-made, thrown together, wooden positioning jig.

davebradwell wrote:Ref Petermeyer's comment - you can't use the coupling rods to set the axle spacing because it's already fixed. You have to use the existing axlebox positions to adjust the coupling rods and your Poppy jig won't do this. I've referred to John Brighton's writings earlier as he does it this way round. Can't see how Poppy jig will prevent frames being twisted either as axleboxes can rise and fall in hornguides.

Did you check all frame spacers were the same width?

DaveB


With regards to the squaring up, as DaveB says the axle boxes can't move horizontal because of the style of the frames. I have had a read of the reference you kindly provided earlier, thank you for that. Unless I am missing something very obvious, the axle boxes (bearings) sit in the frames on the horn guides, and the weight of the frames will ensure that they are fully to the 'top' of the horn guides, meaning they cannot go anywhere. The spaces are all the same width, so with the L/H frames offered up the R/H frames, with all four driving wheel hornblocks in place and through axles, surely it cannot be anything other than straight at that point?

Rich
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby petermeyer » Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:46 pm

47331xosIM wrote:Unless I am missing something very obvious, the axle boxes (bearings) sit in the frames on the horn guides, and the weight of the frames will ensure that they are fully to the 'top' of the horn guides, meaning they cannot go anywhere.


No the bearings rest on beams which means the bearings do not top out in usual conditions. These beams pivot on tubes and are held in place by a pin/rod that goes through both the frames. I can see various holes in your frames that should be for this. I do not know what size of tube and rod you are using and whether that came with the kit. But the holes need to be opened out to be a good fit for the rod. It also looked to me that you might have filled the rear hole for the brake hangers with solder which will need to be cleared out.

Given that elsewhere it was suggested you made the wheels removable, you should also need to make the brakes removable too in order to get the wheels off. So you might want to check what size of hole you want for the brake hangers. I fit tubes in these holes too and the brake hangers snap into these but there are other ways of doing this. It's easier to sort these holes when the chassis is in the flat.


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