Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

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47331xosIM
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Newtonmoor Works - NER O Class (LNER G5) Under Construction

Postby 47331xosIM » Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:12 am

Evening all,
I have been a member of the ScaleFour Society for a couple of years now, and have 'ummed and arrrghed over what to do, however the prospect of building a locomotive kit is finally got the better of my curiosity. I have built some brass wagon under frames before, but not tackled a kit, so this is all new. I have decided to create a small P4 layout set in the North Eastern region, pre-grouping. Possibly around 1912/1913 (ie before WW1) or in the latter days of the company around 1920 - still need to do a bit of research to confirm.

I decided not to get too ambitious to start with but to go for a tank locomotive, so have purchased a NER O Class (thats an LNER G5 for post-grouping readers!) 0-4-4T. I appreciate it has some challenges being an 0-4-4T but I have acquired the kit. John at London Road Models has kindly provided assistance over the wheels from Gibson and the gearbox required - the latter being a High Level Kits slimline gear box, which I'll look to order shortly. I have also ordered a loco-builder box from Poppys based on a friends recommendation.

The build will be slow and steady, its the first P4 model I have built as well, but I am open to advice and constructive criticism, as I do believe its the only way we learn to improve our skills, and is perhaps one of the best parts of the web and forums!

I have a couple of questions that I hoped those who have 'been there and done that' would be able to help point me in the right direction please?

a) I have a temperature controlled soldering iron. What is the ideal temperature solder to use for kits? I dont appear to have any flux other than some that I was given by a local electrician years ago. Are there any preferred options for brass kits?

b) I believe some pieces have to be laminated together, which I have never done. A friend suggested solder paste for this, but acknowledged he hasn't built a loco kit so there may be better ways - are there any?

c) When building a chassis to P4 gauge, are there any things to take particular note of given the wider gauge - or things that I need to take extra care over or look out for?

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Rich
Last edited by 47331xosIM on Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Paul Cram
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby Paul Cram » Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:39 am

Hi Rich

For Brass kits I use 350 degrees and 150 degee solder. I use 12% phosphoric flux.

Paul

charleswrigley
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby charleswrigley » Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:33 am

350 degree solder seems a bit fierce for 4mm kit building. 145 degree solder is usually recommended for etched brass although 189 works quite nicely with its silver content. Laminating is quite straightforward if both parts are tinned on the inside. Clothes pegs or hairdressers’ clips are useful to hold everything together whilst the parts are soldered together. If possible when joining try and apply the heat through the thicker piece of metal into the thinner overlay. Be gentle otherwise overlays are prone to buckling.

I find setting my temperature controlled soldering iron to twice the melting point of the solder in use is a good rule of thumb.

Have fun!

Charlie

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:48 am

Rich,

I recommend a 145 degree solder with a liquid flux. 145 usually has good flow characteristics which make it run along joints readily (LRM's 145 solder is good in this respect.. The general consensus is to set the iron at 100 degrees above the solder temperature but you may have to increase that if soldering bigger items with more heat soak capacity

I laminate smaller parts by fluxing one of them, locate the other and then run solder around the wetted edge. so that it flows into the joint. I have found with solder paint/paste it is harder to heat the laminated unless you use ordinary solder as a heat conductor around the edge or on the face/back of the item. Paint/paste usually has a higher melting point too, a benefit when "step soldering" but otherwise a disadvantage.

I am not aware of any issues building the G5 0-4-4T for P4, but others on here may be able to provide more information on that. The LRM kit has been a popular seller (in etched kit terms) for a long time.

Jol

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Suffolk Dave
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby Suffolk Dave » Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:09 am

Hi Rich

As a relative newcomer myself I'm on a similar part of the learning curve to you. My first attempt with S4 loco building, a High Level LNER J72 chassis to sit under a Bachmann body, is approaching the 'wheeling up' stage. As a newbie it has been quite a challenge but I'm a slow worker, not inclined to be impetuous, the sort who reads the instructions thoroughly and will try a ‘dry run’ before taking crucial steps forward. I’m envious of those who can build quick but I suppose it’s just not in my genes. Nonetheless, it has probably helped me build what is a finely detailed kit to an agreeable standard.

I’d done some web-based research before starting and have had some help and sound advice along the way. I attended a Missenden weekend and learned heaps of stuff! I’ve also had help and gained knowledge through friends at the North-East Essex area group (NEEAG), especially our area coordinator, Jol Wilkinson.

Your questions about soldering techniques made me smile. Searching through here and other railway modelling forums reveals there are as many opinions on the matter as there are soldering irons! That’s not to belittle the advice folk offer and I suggest you try various techniques and approaches until you find one that suits you. I won’t say much about mine, as you’ve already had a reply from Jol, who has been a great mentor, but I will share an approach shown to me by David Brandreth. I use this for the soldering of small components and involves cutting tiny slivers of solder and using tweezers to take them over to the fluxed joint and then introducing the tip of a dry soldering iron. For me, this makes for a neat joint that leaves little or no excess solder in place.

So, good luck with your NER O class kit and I’ll look forward to following your progress.


Dave
Check out my modelling activity here: https://www.instagram.com/4mm_dave/

davebradwell
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby davebradwell » Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:56 am

You're going to be overwhelmed with advice here, much of it contradictory, but it should enable you to make informed choices according to your own preferences.

What you haven't mentioned about your soldering iron is the all-important wattage. If the iron is a bit feeble there's a temptation to wind. up the temperature in an attempt to compensate. Let's say 45W minimum, mine's a 65W. Excess temperature just wrecks the bits faster. Be sure you have plenty of bits of different shapes and sizes.

I hate acid flux and have banned it. Was fed up with gritty feeling tools and rusty axles so I just accept that paste flux doesn't let the solder run as well. The problem is the splashes of acid that soak into the work board over time and make things so unpleasant. This is controversial but we all make our choices. Yes, paste fluxes can cause corrosion too.

With overlays I just solder round the edges - trying to get the whole surface joined requires a lot of heat and this can cause distortion of the thin material. Soldering with a dry iron is difficult as there's initially nothing to transfer the heat to the job, although the flux helps. I've rarely succeeded with this and keeping the iron tinned is recommended to extend bit life. In the old days we stuck everything together with 188 (lead) solder and 145 was called "detailing solder" so the big bits were less likely to fall apart when adding others. The 145 does run better to make a pretty body, though. You'll need some 100deg for the whitemetal castings.

With your chassis you'll be faced with the fundamental challenge of getting axle spacing the same as coupling rod hole centres. There's much been written about this but I would recommend you include John Brighton's description in, I believe, an old issue of S4News. This faces the warts and all realities of the process.

The wider gauge and finer clearance are an opportunity to represent the prototype more closely - you don't need huge gaps behind the wheels or grossly oversize splashers.

DaveB

47331xosIM
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby 47331xosIM » Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:05 pm

Afternoon all,
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and opinions so far. I appreciate soldering, how to do it and what it use is a Marmite situation, what one person likes another doesn't! But having little background reference, I felt an overview of things from different people would help. Like SuffolkDave commented I have done a lot of reading over recent weeks, but despite the various threads on soldering across the model forums I had not really come away with a clear idea of what was what. Thanks to everyone for their ideas and suggestions on laminating too.

I have emailed John at LRM back and asked him to add some of his 145 and Low Melt solder to the box, so I'll go with that as 145 seems to be a common temperature being mentioned.

I'll see how things go, but my plan is to try and photograph and document on here each little stage, hopefully if there is anything I get wrong and dont notice, somebody will be kind enough to point it out before I get too far down the line! I dont have a dedicated work bench, so have just designed myself a small work tray, to keep tools and the various parts together, plus somewhere where the kit can be kept as it is being built. I concluded a good start was not having to get all the tools and bits and pieces out every time - it was likely to waste time and also hit my incentive for just having 10 minutes here and there. The drawings are away for laser cutting now, so should hopefully arrive this coming week, along with the kit and following a good read (or two) of the instructions we'll hopefully be away on this new journey.

Rich

Paul Cram
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby Paul Cram » Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:59 pm

charleswrigley wrote:350 degree solder seems a bit fierce for 4mm kit building. 145 degree solder is usually recommended for etched brass although 189 works quite nicely with its silver content. Laminating is quite straightforward if both parts are tinned on the inside. Clothes pegs or hairdressers’ clips are useful to hold everything together whilst the parts are soldered together. If possible when joining try and apply the heat through the thicker piece of metal into the thinner overlay. Be gentle otherwise overlays are prone to buckling.

I find setting my temperature controlled soldering iron to twice the melting point of the solder in use is a good rule of thumb.

Have fun!

Charlie

Sorry I meant the iron is set to 350 degress.

47331xosIM
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby 47331xosIM » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:45 pm

Thanks to John at London Road Models, the G5 kit arrived this morning. Even just looking at all the brass makes it look complicated for a relative newbie! Still I have managed a very quick read through the instructions this evening, and it seems logical and well thought out.

A question for you chaps who have done this before. I am going to invest in a Poppy's Loco Builder Box to make sure everything is square. When the time to start using it? From the very start, before you put the spacers in the frames, after the spacers? I am assuming its before you solder the spacers but wanted to check I am thinking things through correctly!

Cheers
Rich

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:30 pm

Rich,

as I understand it, the Poppy jig relies on using extended axle "jigs" to line everything up. As the loco is a 0-4-4 tank with built in compensating beams for the driving axles I am not sure how the Poppy jig would help. The twin beams are probably designed to be added after the frames are assembled.

I have found that, if the frames can be set up by soldering the front spacer snugly onto one frame and the rear to the other they can be brought together squarely.

Jol

davebradwell
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby davebradwell » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:25 am

The Poppy jig appears to rely on there being a fixed axle position in order to align frames and from what has been said above I don't think you have this, Rich. A photo of frames and chassis diagram from instructions would help give useful advice rather than generalisations. The very long jig axles in the Poppy jig have always troubled me as they must be less accurate than the usual short ones. They are much more flexible and were they straight in the first place?

To get you started, I suggest you remove frames from the fret (but check that instructions don't call for you to do something clever to them first) and see if they are both the same size and shape. The kit is probably made from a hand drawn artwork and there can be differences between handed components which depend on the quality of the draughtsman.

DaveB

Alan Turner
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby Alan Turner » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:56 am

charleswrigley wrote:350 degree solder seems a bit fierce for 4mm kit building.

Charlie


He means 350 deg for the iron temp.

regards

Alan

47331xosIM
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby 47331xosIM » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:32 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Rich,
as I understand it, the Poppy jig relies on using extended axle "jigs" to line everything up. As the loco is a 0-4-4 tank with built in compensating beams for the driving axles I am not sure how the Poppy jig would help. The twin beams are probably designed to be added after the frames are assembled.

I have found that, if the frames can be set up by soldering the front spacer snugly onto one frame and the rear to the other they can be brought together squarely.
Jol


Thanks for that Jol, I had misunderstood how these things worked, so I think I'll take your advice and see how it goes.


davebradwell wrote:The Poppy jig appears to rely on there being a fixed axle position in order to align frames and from what has been said above I don't think you have this, Rich. A photo of frames and chassis diagram from instructions would help give useful advice rather than generalisations. The very long jig axles in the Poppy jig have always troubled me as they must be less accurate than the usual short ones. They are much more flexible and were they straight in the first place?

To get you started, I suggest you remove frames from the fret (but check that instructions don't call for you to do something clever to them first) and see if they are both the same size and shape. The kit is probably made from a hand drawn artwork and there can be differences between handed components which depend on the quality of the draughtsman.

DaveB

Dave,
Thank you that follows what Jol has said ... ill follow your advice and check the frames are identical and go from there.

Cheers
Rich

petermeyer
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby petermeyer » Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:12 am

If you look at my recent thread on using a jig, https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=167&t=8254 you will see that I assemble the frames in the jig with 1/8" top hat bushes in. That way at least the axle centres are square and parallel. I then remove these one axle at a time when setting up the hornguides. Peter

davebradwell
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby davebradwell » Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:45 am

Rich doesn't have any sort of jig so he's going to have to do it the old way with an engineer's square or similar. Ian Rice used graph paper! His book on chassis is still a useful reference although it is of its day and some things have moved on.

We could still do with an image of your chassis, Rich, so we know what is to move and what isn't.

DaveB

petermeyer
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby petermeyer » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:32 am

davebradwell wrote:Rich doesn't have any sort of jig…

DaveB


In the OP he said he had ordered a Poppy’s locobuilder box. I believe that is a jig. You referred to it in your previous post…

davebradwell
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby davebradwell » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:00 pm

On the 21st it was still being spoken of in the future tense so we don't know.

DaveB

47331xosIM
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby 47331xosIM » Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:12 am

Oops sorry for the confusion! I had emailed Poppys about purchasing one, and got the invoice back, but then work and family life got in the way and I didn’t get round to paying the invoice, the extra time however gave me rise to query when it was used hence my last question. So yes, at the moment I don’t have one.

I’ll also photograph the etch this afternoon as DaveB asked.

Rich

47331xosIM
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby 47331xosIM » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:11 am

Attached are shots of the Nickel Silver and Brass etches for the LRM G5 kit. If ive worked things out right, the main frames and bogie frames are on the Nickel Silver etch.

Rich

Note to self: Dig out Garryflex block to clean them!
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47331xosIM
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby 47331xosIM » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:21 am

petermeyer wrote:If you look at my recent thread on using a jig, https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=167&t=8254 you will see that I assemble the frames in the jig with 1/8" top hat bushes in. That way at least the axle centres are square and parallel. I then remove these one axle at a time when setting up the hornguides. Peter


Peter,
Thanks for posting the link to your thread. I must say the Hobby Holidays jig looks far more solid than the wooden Poppys jig, although no doubt there is a price difference as a result. Interesting to see the images of how you have built your GWR 4-4-0 chassis, which in many ways is the reverse of my 0-4-4 kit. I need to have another read through. Lovely work on the kit btw.

Rich

petermeyer
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby petermeyer » Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:55 pm

Thanks Rich. The Hobby Holidays jig predates the Poppy’s though they should both produce the same result.

Looking at the etch you have a 1991 vintage George Norton Connoisseurs kit. As per my 440, the hornguides have already been cut out. The bogie hornguides also. Both look a bit narrow. You might be able to fit some High Level miniblocks in the bogie to make it compensated. I have done that on a couple of LNWR bogies.

petermeyer
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby petermeyer » Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:58 pm

Part 12 looks like the beams which appear to be designed to rest on the bearings. Did any bearings come with the kit?

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Winander
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby Winander » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:49 pm

At the risk of getting lambasted by the naming police, it looks very much like there are hornguides proximate to the hornblock cutouts; it even looks like they may fold over to locate. This could indicate there are axleboxes in a bag to go in them.

What do the instructions say?
Richard Hodgson
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davebradwell
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby davebradwell » Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:30 pm

Because this is Rich's first build of an etched kit I think we should be careful what mods we might suggest and try and let him build it as close as possible to the kit instructions. Certainly I only intend to highlight things that require special care or provide solutions and tests for situations that arise rather than substituting parts and creating even more challenges. I'm looking for clues that might suggest it's drawn on a computer - I doubt it but we'll have to wait until you see how well LH & RH parts match. There's a number of intriguing mysteries at this stage, hornguides for example, but let's see what the kit designer intended and try and go with it. For starters, I'm very relieved to see that there is no rigid driving axle.

I don't see how anyone can possibly suggest that the Poppy jig will give equivalent results to those such as the Hobby Holidays one.

DaveB

47331xosIM
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Re: Newtonmoor Works - A grand title for a first workbench thread!

Postby 47331xosIM » Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:35 pm

Thanks to all for the help and support, as a first time loco builder, it really is helping - I appreciate different people have different ways of doing things, and different skill sets, with different preferences. But it is all useful background information. As Dave commented, given its my first kit, I will build as close to the instructions as possible, but more than happy to take into account suggestions, comments, advice, constructive criticism, as we go along!

My original intention was to build the chassis first, on the premise that if I cannot get that right for any reason, it doesn't matter how good (or bad!) the body looks, its never going to run well. And the decision to go to P4 was entirely based on good, smooth running, and better looking track work! I was pleased to see therefore that the instructions (which include plenty of diagrams as well as about 16 pages of written instructions) go down the same route, chassis first.

@Winander (Richard) unless there is some policy on the form that prevents it, from my point of view please do feel free to point out anything you feel appropriate, as in this case - I personally had not realised that the horn block bits folded up, before reading the instructions so even what my father would call the 'bleeding obvious!' is welcomed :)

Could I also just note that I have mild dyslexia, therefore have a habit of mixing up words or typing a difference tense to that which is in my mind - for example, detached rather than detach - without realising. I apologise in advance therefore if anything comes up that does not make sense. I try to pick-up such errors, but am not always 100% successful.

Hornguides
The parts list does not mention horn guides, but I suspect it is only detailing the items on the etches, and not the numerous items and detailing parts that are including in various bags:

IMG_2364.JPG


One of the bags contains various brass items, some of which look like horn guides to me (assuming I have got my terminology right!)

IMG_2370.JPG


These look on the picture as if some may be attached to a sprue but they are not, they are separate items. I am assuming these slide upwards into the cutouts on the frames/bogie frames.

Para 1.2 of the instructions says detach and clean the Left Hand and Right Hand main frames "taking care not to damage the fold up fold up horn guides. 1.3 goes onto say carefully fold the horn guides inwards and solder around the edges, before checking for free movement of the 1/8 id hornblocks, although they are not fitted (temporarily) Until Para 1.6. So I think together they answer the question.

Para 1.4 goes onto add about if fitting spring plunger pick-ups drill out the holes now. I had a thought about using Slaters plunger pick-ups, but is there any convention with the S4 Society on the preferred pick-ups for any reason, or is it like many things, down to personal preference?

Rich
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