16T Weathering Experiments

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Paul Hutfield
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16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Paul Hutfield » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:01 am

After a bit of a nudge from one of our area group members I've bowed into peer pressure and written up my latest modelling for the forum.

With much guidance from Peter Johnson of 'Canada Road' and 'Canada Street' fame, I’ve been having a go at weathering a Bachman 16T Dia 1/108. This was initially planned as a test piece for practicing my weathering skills, so there's a few things I'd do differently if starting from scratch, but it may just make it to a finished modelled! The body for the purposes of these photo's is currently sat on a Rumney Model’s chassis which was planned to receive a Parkside body, but the Bachmann equivalent fits the chassis surprisingly well! The main limiting factors as far as I can tell with the Bachmann body are no internal representation of the door lines, slightly thicker sides, moulding pips on the floor, and a lack of handrails on the end door.

Anyway, on to the weathering process. It’s still of course a work in progress but feels like there's certainly enough complete to make this write up worthwhile! Like I said at the start of the post, I can take no credit for the techniques used as these are all those Peter Johnson. More of Peter’s work and others can be found at http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/

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The original rather green Bachmann colour!

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Some experiments with various enamel grey’s. The Precision Paints option in my opinion is the least favourable. I went with the Humbrol 127 option (which is actually a satin rather than a matt paint). As pointed out by Peter, it does have a bit of a blue hue, but this can be tackled by dropping a tiny bit of brown into the mix if you so wish. I’m planning on having a bit of subtle variation in grey across my 16T’s which’ll probably be varying shades of 127, 147 and a mix of the two.

20210116 7077.JPG


I also did a quick test of varnish options. This was necessary for a later stage in the weathering process. On the left hand third the test piece has been treated with Humbrol Matt Cote. The middle third is untreated. The right hand third has been treated with Humbrol 49 matt varnish from a tin. A couple of observations on this, firstly the varnish has a slight yellow tint to it. Secondly, having found out the hard way that the latter can dry shiny if mixed, Peter suggested not to stir and to just use a cocktail stick to dig out some of the gloopy stuff at the bottom of the tin. This stuff seems to dry the most matt.

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So, Bachmann body brush painted with 147 to preserve the factory applied decals. This was left for some time to harden so it would not be affected at the weathering stages.

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A suitable reference photo from June 1958.

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Revell 84 brushes on to represent the rust patches. Don’t worry about it looking a little naff at this stage, it will improve! Worst case, the rust can still be removed with white spirit or thinners if it’s really not working for you.

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Another view at the same stage.

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Further darker rust is applied again using Revell 84 but darkening this time with Humbrol 33 to represent older darker rust. Circa 24hrs later white spirit is then used to soften the rust patches and dragged downwards to represent rust streaking. This is only possible due to the rust patches not being left to harden, like the base colour.

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Another view of the same stage.

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On to the next stage and a mix of 33 and matt varnish is liberally applied to the sides. This was my first attempt and was in hindsight a little too weak, but in my defence, I was worried about ruining my work to date, so was a bit reserved to begin with.

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White spirit is then used to cut back the dirty black mix. As later discovered, Peter recommends you do this almost immediately after application of the dirty mix. This had been left about 90mins at this stage.

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This leaves dirt in the edges of the panels and around the door hinges etc.

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As mentioned, having stirred the varnish this resulted in a rather shiny instead of the planned matt dirt finish when dried.

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The same stage showing the desired build up around the end door.

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A closer look at the panels.

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And again

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As mentioned, the dirty black had dried shiny. The effect achieved was also a little cleaner than I had planned. So, to counter this I repeated the previous stage, this time with a bit more 33 in the mix!

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This had the desired effect of toning down the glossy finish from before. I also added a few more smaller pinprick rust marks as well as a bit of rust where the side door would have made contact with the door banger.

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Still not happy with their amount of dirty black in the corners, further localised applications of the dirty black varnish mix has been applied.

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And to the the fixed end.....

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And to the end door

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Once cut back, the gradual build up of dirt is hopefully apparent and placed along side a couple of other model’s/projects to see how it looks. I actually think the dirty black is a little too dark at this stage, so may yet add a little more dirty mix to blend the finish a little further. It’s worth noting that the paint is still drying at this stage so I’ll leave it overnight and have another look in the daylight to assess the situation.

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It’s worth noting that the dirty black mix had also been applied to tone down the interior of the wagon too. Previously this had been painted with Revell 84. The other point to note is that some of the rust spots have had a little more 84 added to build up the rust patches.

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Here's a couple of views now in the natural daylight rather than the artificial light that I'm more used to on the work bench.

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At this point I'm worried that I've gone too dark on the dirty mix applied to the interior to town down the rust colour. Checking against a suitable colour photo (this one from the highly recommended "Volume 2: Forest of Dean Lines and the Severn Bridge" by Lightmoor Press) has indicated that I'm not too far off although, I would've preferred to have been more towards mid grey than dark grey. I may work on this area further, but for now I'm pleased with what I've learnt so far.

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At this stage I probably ought to finish the chassis so I can paint and add a mix of Humbrol 29 and 33 to both the chassis and the bottom panels of the wagon, blending the two together. Most of the parts are already completed to do this, I've just got to find a day where I have both the time and motivation to make meaningful progress.

Anyway that’s it for now, fingers crossed they'll be another installment!

Paul

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Mike Garwood
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Mike Garwood » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:57 am

Paul
Superb results, something I shall try. Thanks for the "how to".

Mike

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Guy Rixon
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:22 am

Very good indeed. The representation of large rust-patches is the best I've seen, across several fields of modelling. It's worked better than the elaborate "chipping varnish" techniques I see in AFV modelling.

I think the key is that you've got the scale of the rust patches just right, in the sense that they're the size that my eye expects to see. Other models of rusty-steel wagons have used larger brown patches that might be perfectly copied from photos but don't look right; too much like a child's drawing of a cow.

Conversely, the staining from coal dust may be a little heavier than optimal. I think this is actually very well observed, possibly even a little light compared to full-sized wagons, but it looks heavy. Tellingly, the coal-staining looks more convincing in the close-up photos than in the long shots and this is a reaction of human vision to the concentration weathering around the top door.

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Noel
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Noel » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:37 am

I wouldn't worry too much about the base colour, YP, as there was quite a variety; if you have access to a copy of "Steam in South Wales", have a look at the frontispiece - 4 minerals in five different versions of grey, as one has had a partial replating and consequent partial repaint - and there were more. The original manufacturer may have used a standard shade, but wagon repair firms were rather less fussy about such things, judging by colour photos. B100071 was a Pressed Steel vehicle from 1954 [your prototype photo also shows a Pressed Steel wagon, from the year before] and it would probably have been repainted somewhere around 1959/60, quite likely by a wagon repairer as they did a lot of such work at that period. This is the condition shown by Bachmann [compare how the number and capacity are shown on your prototype picture, which is the original style]. Somewhere around 1964-6 it is likely to have been partially replated and would then have acquired a data box at bottom right. The prototype photo shows a wagon which is about as bad as they normally got at that period as BR was generally applying about a five year cycle for repainting; this later was extended and later still abolished, so really bad rusting wasn't that common until the mid-1960s, whilst a train at that time could include every possibility from brand new or just repainted to due for a repaint asap.

The rusting you have done is very effective in my view, but colour photos show that the dirt on bodies was very limited in its appearance, and was mostly not black. There may have been some coal dust [which is not always dead black anyway] but some of the dirt is likely to be from other sources, so I would suggest that the 'black' wash should be minimal, and should be taken back with some dark brown. Coal dust seems to have been mostly washed off by rain on intact paint; most 'black' on 16 tonners was, I suggest, old rust which has trapped coal dust, so again not flat black. No two wagons rusted the same way, and rust went from orange [I use bauxite, often dropped onto the just applied wash, so it runs, sometimes after first dropping a little more red-brown, to try and show new rust on older] to reddish brown to dark brown to almost black over time, so weathering 16 tonners is fun, fun, fun!
Regards
Noel

ralphrobertson
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby ralphrobertson » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:17 pm

Paul, like your timbering experiments too. What paints did you use for those? I know it is off your topic but weathered wood is always interesting.

Ralph

Paul Hutfield
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Paul Hutfield » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:26 pm

Thanks Mike, much appreciated! The aim was to encourage people to think "I recon I could do that" and to give it a go. This was the first time I've had a go at anything like this so surely it can only get better from here!? Also to show those stages where it all looks like its going a bit wrong but to hopefully add a bit of confidence to persevere and that any doubts should be put at rest by the following stages. As you know, I'm terrible at getting to something I'm not quite sure about and spending far too long thinking about the solution!

Guy, that's very kind of you to say so. Like I say in my commentary, I can only aim the credit in the direction of Peter Johnson as it's his techniques and formula's that I've adopted, I've just tried to put my interpretation of his instructions in to pictures. I agree with you about the overly large rust patches, Peter refers to this as the Friesian cow look! I think a lot of this could be down to people seeing a successful rust result achieved by one modeller but for a completely different scenario, the same method is then assumed to be appropriate for a 16T mineral and applied without looking at a suitable reference photo. This is where the inclusion of the prototype reference photo really demonstrates its value to the process, I haven't invested a lot of time in replicating the rust patches, merely observing the size and location. There is still a little more weathering to be added to the bottom third although this will have to wait for the chassis to catch up. A dirty mix but with a bit more brown in it is to applied to the chassis and lower panels and this should blend the whole wagon together. The additional brown in the mix is to replicate the track dirt and brake dust that would be accumulated in this area, much of it being formed of rusty metal particles of one form or another. The coal staining around the top door is one of those area's that has come out a little darker than I would've liked, I think I should've added a touch more brown in to the mix at the time. That said, I don't think the phone camera has helped this either. Over time (and I think this is actually an intended ploy by Apple software) the quality of my photo's has deteriorated with more pixilation present and an over emphasised contrast in colour. The balance between the coal staining and base grey is a lot softer on my human eye for instance than the camera currently portrays. I tried to counter this with the photo's taken in natural sunlight rather than artificial light, but I think I'll also have to test this with a separate camera device.

Thanks Noel, you're observations and subject knowledge are very useful. You're completely right on the variation of grey. I don't have that specific book to hand but I did come across a few other useful photo's demonstrating this on Flickr. That said, the colour used by Bachmann to my eyes at least almost looks olive green and I wasn't happy with this. I intend on varying my grey bas colour to reflect this and intend of using variations of Humbrol 129 and 147 to achieve this. The following are all screenshots that I took at the time for modelling purposes, but hopefully it's ok replicating them here. If required I think I can probably dig out the relevant links to the appropriate photo's.

This first image is particularly useful as its a rare 1956 colour shot!

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The following two photo's I'm pretty confident are later (I don't have the dates recorded to hand), but again the variation of grey is obvious to see.

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My own modelling is generally intended to capture the 1956 - 1959 period, this is period in which the layout will be modelled at least, although I'm pretty relaxed about stretching the stock I run either side of this! There may even be a 1920's or 30's train that creeps in for instance should I feel like running one!

Back onto your observations Noel, I hadn't realised about the variation of number patches, thanks for bring this to my attention and I'll pay a bit more notice to this area going forwards. Like I said, this was only suppose to be an experiment at the time so I paid less attention to the body details. I may yet go back and change the end door moulded handrails for wire ones for instance if I deem this experiment good enough to grace the layout (Realistically I'm going to need as many wagons as I can get my hands on! So the more the merrier!). Due to the experimental phases this body has ended up a little more weathered than I'd probably intended, future wagon's will include a mixture of some with a lot less dirt! The 5 year cycle explains a lot though! As mentioned in my response to Guy, the camera is accentuating the contrast of the dirt so it looks a lot darker and more stark on screen, the reality is that the effect is softer, but could be softer still. More brown will feature in future mixes to counter this. I've tried to observe where the coal dust accumulates and the reality is that the areas around the hinges show more dark than most, no doubt due to the dust clinging to the oil lubrication around these moving parts.

Ralph, no worries about going slightly off topic. Ex editor James asked me several times to write up something on this subject for the Snooze a long time ago, but the reality is that although I'm pleased with the results, it always looked a little bit forced with the contrasts not quite right. As a result I was never happier enough to write it up (if you're reading this James, apologies for not seeing this through). Perhaps I'll set up a second topic to describe the process in time following on from the 16T! Anyway, around the same time of experimenting with the 16T I did revisit the 13T wooden PO and am now happier than I ever have been. The biggest downfall of this model has always been the fact that I never used a specific photo as a reference, instead taking a variety of references from several wagons and thus struggling to make the final affect gel. The bare wood planks have started off as Humbrol matt white (34) and I've then added the tiniest amounts of leather (62) to create a creamy latte colour, again edging on a lighter rather than darker shade as this is toned down with washes. It's always much easier to add colour in my opinion than it is to take it away. The big win in my opinion has been the recent transformation of the interior. I applied a mid-grey wash to the interior which blended the whole lot together and then picked out the ironwork with a mix of Revell brown (84) and Humbrol matt black (33) as per the 16T. I've added a few photo's of the stages of transformation below, but really should set these up on a separate thread!

So as I picked up the body again, having been in this state for quite a few years. As I mentioned, the contrast of colour never worked for me.

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A bit more mid/dark-grey added to the wagon planks to tone it down a bit.

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Interior again before I reworked this area. Originally achieved by the light brown mix with subtle tonal variations and some dirty wash (purely the dirty thinners from that painting session) applied to capillary into the plank gaps.

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Mid-grey thin paint applied to the interior to dull the whole affect of the interior and replicate the residue of the coal dust ingrained in the wood.

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A light rub with a fibreglass brush once the paint had hardened to rejuvenate some of the base colour and add a bit of variation where the wood would've been susceptible to greater distress from the sharp edge of a spade!

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And finally the touch up of the metal work with the rusty brown mix. It's worthwhile leaving this a week or so after the grey wash, this way if you're not as accurate with painting the metal work as you'd like you can tidy up with some thinners and it wont take the base colour with it!

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Oh before anyone asks, I've sanded the top edge back to bare plastic to add a 5 thou plasticard capping strip. I'd originally used an etched strip, but this was very susceptible to being caught on the edges, so I removed pending replacement with plasticard which has worked for me on other wagons. The eagle eyed amongst you (although all of you now, now you've been tipped off!) will also notice that I've touched up the exterior metal work that had suffered from excessive handling over the years, exposing the moulded plastic detail.

Well that's quite enough from me for now. I better do some of the DIY chores as punishment before it gets too late! :)

Paul
Last edited by Paul Hutfield on Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

davebradwell
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby davebradwell » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:21 am

I've been using Peter Johnson's technique to weather steel hoppers and mins for some time, although not with your dedication and effect. It seems to be tolerant to my non-arty efforts. Up until about 1960, I reckon that BR wagons were kept in pretty good condition but with some rust from physical damage as you have represented. Undamaged areas kept their paint well and your photos support this. I believe this changed with the new light grey (which Precision call 1964-) which appeared in the NE on both new wagons and re-paints pre-1960. This appeared to suffer from poor surface treatment and I reckon the pattern of deterioration changed with large patches of light rust just coming through the paint even without damage. You can even find wagons that are basically the older darker grey (of many possible shades) that have been repaired and patch painted the new light grey which has rusted while the original paint has endured well. This would eventually lead to the classic all-rust wagons we saw in blue diesel days.

It seems that scrap-men didn't like their empty mins to contain coal residue and vice versa so coal mins and scrap mins would tend to be kept separate and which would account for different overall hues. Remember, too, that the world was a very grey place in the 60s and even later so your general dusting should tie-in with the overall layout palette.

DaveB

bogusman
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby bogusman » Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:14 pm

Very impressive weathering Paul. Hope to try your techniques out on some of my stock later on.

Pete

tmcsean
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby tmcsean » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:16 pm

Some beautifully workaday wagons. One point I would like to add is that the inside of 16 tonners seems to have been much more orange than they are usually portrayed. A good source for this is the scene in The Ladykillers film. When the corpse of one of the (spoiler alert) would-be killers is consigned to a conveniently passing train of empty coal wagons the lurid colours are as striking as the signal arm which consigned him. Now we all see more models than prototypes it looks wrong - but it isn't.

Tony

Paul Hutfield
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Paul Hutfield » Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:42 am

Thanks for the feedback Dave. I agree with your observations about the finish of 16T's, the paintwork certainly seemed to be pretty hardy up to the early 60's, rust purely as a result of localised damage would make sense. This definitely changed soon after with general condition declining rapidly soon after. Your observation about coal and scrap mins is interesting and would make sense too! I have noticed quite a variation on the interior colours, so definitely need to understand your prototype and pick a suitable candidate for replicating that has been used for the traffic that you aim to represent. The Somerset & Dorset was predominantly coal so it's fair to say that the vast majority of my wagon's will need their interiors to lean on the dark grey rather than rusty brown scale!

Thanks Pete, that's very kind of you to say so, especially having been so impressed with your own results!

Likewise Tony, I've always been impressed by your modelling efforts so the positive comments are most appreciated. With regards to your comments about the interiors, I don't disagree, there's certainly plenty of variation of colour across the photo's that I seen. The comment that Dave made about the general use of the wagon and the resulting effect that the load had on the interior is pertinent here. I'll definitely be choosing colour photo's of wagon's that have clearly been used for coal traffic for reference. I have observed on occasions that the sides of the wagon's that come into contact with the coal generally appear a more orange colour/brown colour, whereas to top edges of the wagon sides often seen to display a closer resemblance to the colour of coal dust. I can only presume that the contact from the loading/unloading process continually exposes the steel from the lower sides, where as the top edge suffers less contact and thus allows more chance for the coal dust to build up.

Thanks for all the interest shown.

Paul

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Noel
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Noel » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:50 am

The interior colour 16T minerals were painted as built is something I have been trying to establish for many years. The LMSR and LNER ones were painted the same colour as the outside, but BR ones? Asking the question many years ago got several different answers of varying credibility, but I eventually concluded, on very limited evidence admittedly, that BR ones were painted black inside, and probably with bituminous paint, as the finish looks matt. Wet coal is generally acidic, and hard coal is abrasive [softer coals are less of a problem], so interior paint which is more robust than that on the exterior would make sense as a strategy.

Wagons were often left standing in the rain, both at collieries and in station yards, and were commonly unloaded by men with shovels, or sometimes a mechanical digger or a grab crane, whilst wet dust would tend to accumulate in the corners. Consequently the bottom, especially the corners, of the body was the most vulnerable area for both mechanical damage and rusting. The wagon in "The Ladykillers" had probably been unloaded in the past day or two, since demurrage charges by BR would mean that empties were moved on asap after being emptied, so the orange colour would probably not be evident for long as the rust aged. What little of the interiors is visible in the photos Paul H posted looks black(ish!)
Regards
Noel

bécasse
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby bécasse » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:19 pm

I have seen a colour photograph, goodness knows where now, that shows that the interior was painted grey (and hence presumably bauxite on the fitted or quasi-fitted ones). When carrying coal, a fair amount of black coal dust would tend to stick the sides (electrostatic effect?) until washed down by subsequent rain and this may give the impression in distant views of a black interior - dusting with black powder paint would replicate the effect in model form. When well washed down by rain, the interior grey paint tended to a pink hew as a result of minuscule rust spots formed by the abrasive nature of mineral loads. I have never seen a photo that showed the floor but that, and the lower edges of the sides, would quickly have started to rust as a result of residual damp acidic coal dust. Remember that the rebodying exercise didn't come about because the sides needed replacing, patching being adequate, but because the floors started to literally drop out.

I have noticed that wagons that seem to have been dedicated to short haul traffic in colliery areas (and especially the South Wales valleys) tended to show considerable amounts of external rust far earlier than their siblings used for longer hauls.

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Noel
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Noel » Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:25 pm

As I observed, LNER and LMSR 16T were painted body colour internally, so grey for the LNER; there are photos in LNER Wagons Vol 4A. I have a photo [b&w, sadly] of a brand new BRCW built 16T mineral taken in 1952. The interior is definitely not the same as the external grey; it is a very much darker colour. I have two copies of it in different magazines, with, of course, different tones in the reproductions. The interior is definitely not the same as the standard gloss black of the chassis, but is also clearly matt, which would affect the tone. My one reservation is that it has been specially prepared for a public exhibition [it has white wheel rims and the shot was taken at the exhibition]. However, I can't think that the interior would have been treated in any way differently from any other 16T solely for that reason.

Paul Bartlett's photos are almost all from the mid-70s onwards, but nonetheless some are useful evidence, I think. These are all well worn, and look to be very dark grey to black inside, which is consistent with faded bituminous paint:
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralweld/h3bd22a3f#h3bd22a3f
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mineralrivet/h2c561900#h2c561900
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mdorebuiltrenumber/hd4335a5#hd4335a5
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mdo/h142a4b4b#h142a4b4b
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mdo/h3c64309a#h3c64309a

Most are not 16T, but again there is no reason to suppose that BR did not treat the interiors of all of their minerals the same way. More evidence is always welcome.
Regards
Noel

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Tim V
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Tim V » Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:50 pm

Here are some wagons (not 16T) awaiting repair at a wagon works.
Radstock Prinz 110 Colour  (12).jpg
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Highpeak
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Highpeak » Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:56 pm

Geoff Kent's volume 1 of The 4mm Wagon has a picture of a brand new 16T mineral on page 58, clearly showing a black interior.

A bit off-topic, but on page 86 there is a good view of a brand new wooden-bodied open shock absorbing wagon showing the interior with unpainted wood but painted steel work, including the nuts that secure the exterior metal strapping.
Neville
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Noel
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Noel » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:37 pm

Highpeak wrote:Geoff Kent's volume 1 of The 4mm Wagon has a picture of a brand new 16T mineral on page 58, clearly showing a black interior.


I thought I had another copy somewhere, but couldn't find it. So much depends on the reproduction that it is difficult to be sure. In both the other copies the interior appears less dark than in this one, not by much, but enough to make the identification of it as black less certain.
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Noel

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barrowroad
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby barrowroad » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:55 pm

Well done Paul, an interesting and informative write up which I'm sure will be a useful guide for those wishing to weather wagons.

Robin

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BryanJohnson
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby BryanJohnson » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:56 pm

These images are cropped from Colour Rail slides, both are dated 1958.
One is at Kingswear so I suspect it will be loaded with coal for the gas works further up the branch.
I think they show the presence of orange, and the differences in the rust where the coal load would be.
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davebradwell
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby davebradwell » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:36 am

Just a minute here, for years we have been happy with the notion that wagons were unpainted inside. I can't see why a couple of photos should change all that - insides may well have been painted for the official photographs in '4A and the pic of the side door uses 2 different shades.

The bottom of a narrowboat was/is never painted as just one scratch would make the whole job a waste of time and I've always considered that the same logic would apply to wagon interiors. I doubt if the Paul Bartlett photos show bitumen paint as this would rust where scratched and it's an even layer. We used this on boats so I know the stuff. The weld lines look too crisp to be painted with something that isn't very runny and why aren't there any patch repairs as on the outside. There'll be a full paint spec somewhere in the locked NRM library.

I'll go along with the notion that as the insides look better than the outsides it raises suspicion of some treatment but if it was so good why wasn't it used outside? Hopper plates used to wear away so the more gentle loading/unloading of a min would have some sort of abrasive cleaning action.

The photos do support my idea that the later light grey paint just fell off with poor surface preparation. The earlier colours stuck better.

DaveB

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Noel
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Noel » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:18 pm

davebradwell wrote:Just a minute here, for years we have been happy with the notion that wagons were unpainted inside.

No Dave, we have accepted that open WOODEN bodies were not painted inside. This is supported by photographic evidence, but there is plenty of evidence that steel bodies were painted inside, before the floorboards [if any] were added at the very end of the construction process (see 4A p54 for example - built in 1944, the wooden door in apparently unpainted externally when the photo was taken as well). Even when paint was in short supply after WW2, so that wooden traffic wagons had the body left unpainted, all the steel work was painted, including the bolts and any other metalwork inside.

davebradwell wrote: insides may well have been painted for the official photographs in '4A

One of the possibilities which have made made me uncertain about what was done "as new". However, it doesn't explain the BRCW 16T at the 1952 Battersea Wharf public exhibition. If it had been specially painted inside for the exhibition, then logically BRCW would just have used the same colour as on the outside, as the least effort option [the general public in 1952 would neither have known nor cared, anymore than they would now]. They did not; whatever colour it was, which can be argued about, it was very much darker than the outside. It also appears to be matt, rather than the enamel of the chassis, all of which, to me, suggests that this was the normal procedure.

davebradwell wrote:and the pic of the side door uses 2 different shades

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here. What I see is areas of light and shadow resulting from doors of pressed steel sheet.

davebradwell wrote: I doubt if the Paul Bartlett photos show bitumen paint as this would rust where scratched and it's an even layer. We used this on boats so I know the stuff. The weld lines look too crisp to be painted with something that isn't very runny ... There'll be a full paint spec somewhere in the locked NRM library.

I don't, so can't disagree with that, but it leaves the question of just what is the reason for the visible colour? It presumably isn't coal dust, which I would expect to be washed off, especially given the considerable mechanical shaking resulting from any movement of the wagon. The LMSR formula for bituminous paint was 50% blown bitumen and 50% white spirit.

davebradwell wrote:why aren't there any patch repairs as on the outside

External patch repairs of a hole would still leave the hole inside, and rust is progressive. It would also leave more ledges for the acid mixture of rail and coal dust to attack. They would not last very well. In practice BR expected bodies to be good for 10-15 years, after which the rotten areas were cut out and replaced flush with the remainder of the sides, usually with welded joints, although some rivetted wagons seem to have had new floors rivetted in. Doors were probably replaced entirely, especially the more vulnerable pressed version, and likewise the floor. However this was apparently not altogether satisfactory longer term, as it was superseded by total replacement of the body.

davebradwell wrote:but if it was so good why wasn't it used outside

I suggest because it was not necessary, as the outside spent far less time in contact with the acid solution resulting from rain on coal.
Regards
Noel

Paul Hutfield
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Paul Hutfield » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:23 pm

Thanks Robin for the kind words.

Bryan, Tim, very useful photo's, particularly the 1958 colour views and thank you for sharing! Something that has really helped my own observations here is not just the colour of the interior, but that on the top edge of the steel wagons! It clearly would've been painted, as shown in Tim's later pic, but generally this area seems to have assumed the same colour as the interior following use. Undoubtedly there would be some witness of paint remaining in this area, highly dependant on the period since last repaint/refurb and level of dirt. I'd imagine the coal dust sat on this surface bound together with oil and soot, and as a result was less likely to be washed off by the elements in comparison to the painted sides.

The discussion on wagon interior's is an interesting one and certainly looks like it's attracting useful debate. For what its worth, I'm with Dave on this one. Due to the abuse and erosion that the wagon interior would've been exposed too I highly doubt they would've wasted money and effort protecting these surfaces. Surely it would've only extended life by a matter of weeks before this surface was exposed again even if it was indeed treated this way? To justify this decision I add the following.

1). I don't believe I've come across any colour photo which show's any sign of interior paint. If evidence can be produced then it most certainly would be an exception to the majority.
2). If interior's were painted, then I'd argue that even with heavy use, you see some evidence of patches of said paint clinging to the corners, hard to reach area's or the top 10% of the wagon that generally remained exposed, even when loaded.
3). History would also tend to agree these surfaces weren't painted either, wooden minerals always appear unpainted, as do the interiors on general purpose opens and even lorry trailers and platform trolley's etc. Why would a 16T be any different?

The dark interior observed in some black and white photo's could have been purely for photographic purposes, but also, it could just be the way a bare metal surface is captured by the camera! We all know that red can easily be confused as black in B&W images. Taking Tim's image for example and turning it B&W, the interior certainly comes across as a lot darker than the exterior surfaces.

Radstock Prinz 110 Colour Tim Venton.jpg


Radstock Prinz 110 Colour Tim Venton (2).jpg


With all this in mind, interior painting may well have been experimented with, but the majority of photographic evidence, certainly from the mid/late 50's onwards would suggest this wasn't the case. I am quite satisfied that any 16T steel interiors I model should vary between a rusty orange/brown colour and mucky charcoal grey, dependant on how recent it was used for coal traffic.

Before I finish on interior's, one observation I did try to replicate was the witness of the load on the interiors. A bit like a tide mark on a dock or river bank. I've highlighted this witness in Bryan's Kingswear image, highlighting my observation with the application of some crudely applied red lines.

Kingswear 1958 cropped (2)_LI.jpg
Kingswear 1958 cropped (2)_LI.jpg (942.23 KiB) Viewed 999 times


I attempted to apply a darker paint mix to this part of my wagon interior, but ultimately I haven't been convinced or happy with my results. I think this'll either need further experimentation or acceptance on my part that I'm just trying to capture too much detail from the brushstrokes and actually less is indeed more in this scenario!

Thanks all for the continued interest.

Paul

davebradwell
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby davebradwell » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:12 pm

I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong, I'm just taking my time. The paint spec will settle it. Wouldn't the wagons be made from black sheet (hence inside colour of new wagons) which resists rust for a while except where welded but the surface would need removal by abrasion or shot-blasting before painting the outside or the paint would come off - more narrowboat experience. Elimination of this treatment might explain why later paint finishes failed quickly. The greatest evidence that we need a better theory is the lack of a visible patch on the inside round a repair. I can't see any kind of paint surviving 16 tons of scrap (or lesser qty of coal) being dumped on it regularly and still looking nice and even like the photos.

I suspect the teemers would have done their nuts if hoppers were painted inside and the coal wouldn't slide out.

Interesting, though.

DaveB

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Guy Rixon
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Guy Rixon » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:29 pm

davebradwell wrote:II suspect the teemers would have done their nuts if hoppers were painted inside and the coal wouldn't slide out.


Isn't that what God made bash plates for?

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Noel
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby Noel » Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:58 pm

Paul Hutfield wrote:3). History would also tend to agree these surfaces weren't painted either, wooden minerals always appear unpainted, as do the interiors on general purpose opens and even lorry trailers and platform trolley's etc. Why would a 16T be any different?


Because wood and steel were not treated the same way, as I pointed out in my last post. Traffic steel opens were painted inside [apart from the wood floors], so on this logic why would 16T [and 21T and 24.5T] not be painted inside as well?

The BRCW 16T which has been mentioned previously appears in an article on the Battersea Wharf public exhibition in British Railways Illustrated 11/2015. Also appearing are a Lowmac WP B904556 [all 'interior' steel, if I can call it that, is painted, the floor is not], a wooden bodied open VB B484950 [visible internal steel painted, including bolts, wood not], wooden bodied Shock Hybar VB B721966 [ditto, apart from a floorboard which looks as though someone dropped a paint pot on it!], steel Soda Ash Hybar B745550 [inside and outside of body appear to be the same colour, floor not visible], steel Open VB B486865 [Inside and outside of body appear to be the same colour, the floor is unpainted], a 13T RCH which appears to be totally devoid of paint inside, so far as it is visible, and out and has a bent hinge bar [representing the bad old days??] and a few where the inside is not visible, including both a 24.5 ton mineral and a 24.5 ton hopper [ :evil: ]. All are brand new, apart from the RCH 13T, and are open to the question of special preparation, as with the 16T.

I should also acknowledge Bryan for posting the Kingswear images; most interesting and helpful. The wagons are indeed for Hollacombe gas works, as, so far as I know, domestic coal did not at that time come in via Kingswear, although some had done in the past. The train is almost certainly from Newton Abbot's Hackney Yard, and would consist of returns from the local power station and domestic coal yards.

I await further contributions with interest.
Regards
Noel

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johndarch
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Re: 16T Weathering Experiments

Postby johndarch » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:45 pm

This is the sort of colour I finish the inside of my 16 tonners. I'm afraid my weathering isn't a patch on yours but I don't think I would have finished 70 odd minerals by now if I had taken as much care and time as you. obviously have. Great work.

16T 09.jpg


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