Simons workbench industrials. Nonneminstre Coles crane.

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Simon Moore

Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby Simon Moore » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:38 pm

Having taken on board what everyone had said regarding the issues around the stanton slag ladles track holding properties i had a bit of a play today.

The test track has never been fully finished off so i decided to get that finished off so i could run something & test things. I put a piece of thin card under the point to lift it up in line with the flex track from C&L. Its worked a treat & the slag ladle rolls through it with ease now & no derailments. I have given the point blades a little taper also.

20210321_212350.jpg


The slag ladle i have also done a few mods on. When i was originally thinking about how i could P4 this wagon my thought was to give it a little bit of slop in the bottom of the bearing so the wheels can have that bit of movement. What i have done is given both sets of bearings a bit of slop but i have used some thin brass wire as a springing system so it forces the wheel down on uneven rail.

The wife has already told me tomorrow evening she needs to work on her business so that gives me the green light to finish off in the workshop wiring the point & fitting the switch & omega loop.

With a bit of luck i should have the test track running tomorrow.
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:37 am

That's great news Simon. I agree with your idea of springing the wheels rather than just rely on them dropping. How heavy are these little wagons?

allanferguson wrote: The tips of switch blades are often prone to a tiny track undergauge,

Allan F


Allan, is it not the case that, "if you think about it" (as the phrase goes), unless you have joggles, or undercut the blade by tapering down the tops of the blades as you say, you're bound to be undergauge!? If a B length blade (29mm) tapers from rail width 0.9mm to zero at the set (say 1mm beyond the tip), the space left for the blade at the tip is 0.03mm. At 3mm from the tip there's space for a 0.1mm blade, at 6mm space for 0.2mm, etc.
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allanferguson
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby allanferguson » Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:34 am

Julian, you are of course, completely right; but I would expect that! But there a number of factors involved here and in practice it may be difficult to ensure they are all bang on. As said, I have found that in practice there is often some gauge narrowing around the tip. It is difficult to ensure the proper taper on switch blades. (I have never used commercially milled blades, so can't comment on them) It is difficult to check the dimensions using the usual gauges --- I always use callipers. The set needs to be just the right angle, and in the proper place. My own practice has been to deliberately make things a little wide to gauge (up to 0.5mm) in this area, which seems to work. You must be back to the precise gauge through the crossing, though.
I can't get anything to run through my pointwork at present, because I can't get up to the loft, where the railway is!

Allan F

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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby davebradwell » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:07 pm

Isn't it just the top of the rail (just below the corner radius) that needs to be in gauge - making it difficult to measure - so by chamfering the top of the blade you don't have to file the blade end to a sharp point with zero strength. Following the prototype and bringing the top of the blade about 0.25mm below the stock rail also helps keep this area in gauge. There was a lot of discussion about this in Julian's "joggled stockrails" in May 2019 which gave the subject just about the best thrashing it's ever had - you'll find it very helpful. Only the beginning referred to joggles.

0.5mm overgauge seems a lot, Alan.

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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:54 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:Allan, is it not the case that, "if you think about it" (as the phrase goes), unless you have joggles, or undercut the blade by tapering down the tops of the blades as you say, you're bound to be undergauge!? If a B length blade (29mm) tapers from rail width 0.9mm to zero at the set (say 1mm beyond the tip), the space left for the blade at the tip is 0.03mm. At 3mm from the tip there's space for a 0.1mm blade, at 6mm space for 0.2mm, etc.

The purpose of the set is to avoid being undergauge. The taper on the switch has to fit in the space identified in your table. But this only applies to the head of the rail where you form the gauge face while leaving as much of the web and foot as possible to keep strength. The only commercial switch blades I have seen correctly formed are those in the P4 track company kits.
Try to copy the straight cut switch on the bottom row.
gle-1 (2).gif
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Keith
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Winander
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby Winander » Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:55 pm

allanferguson wrote:The set needs to be just the right angle, and in the proper place.


I always understood that that was the critical objective and the set compensates for the width in the switch rail. Any planing of the switch tip is to guide the wheel onto the switch rail and not to compensate for its width.

Unless you have joggles - an entirely separate prototype method.
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:04 pm

Winander wrote:Any planing of the switch tip is to guide the wheel onto the switch rail and not to compensate for its width.

Its the planing of the switch rail that creates its shape including width and tip profile. You can't have an unplaned switch rail unless you are using stub switches. (In our scale, for planing read filing).
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:46 pm

Simon, your turnout is working, that's the main thing. As you show, just a few strokes of the files make the undercut blade perfectly practical. Tony Wilkins describes it all in full detail viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5727 with this result
Switches 45.jpg


He says that the blade starts 0.24mm lower than the railhead and rises to full height progressively over the length of the planing.

It was an eye-opener to me to understand how the wheel sits on the rail, and that the gauge-point (the narrowest measurement between the rails) is 0.19mm below the rail top. The rounded flange sits on the 'gauge corner' of the rail. (Ignore the word max in this diagram)
wheel rail interface. 2.PNG

So this rough sketch is how the very tip of the blade looks, between the flange and the rail, just 0.05mm below the gauge point. (The total flange is 0.4mm deep. Roughly half its depth sits on the rail.)
Wheel rail blade.jpg

I worked out a table of heights as well as widths for a B blade.
Blade height and width table JR 22 March 2021.PNG


That table and all these 1/100th of a millimetre measurements are only exactly relevant if you had a (£10k?) milling machine that could work to those tolerances. You just file the chamfer onto the blade at roughly that angle with this general idea in mind and as if by magic it works :D The width is irrelevant until it rises to the gauge point, and as Dave implies, being a knife edge it can't be measured accurately in any case.

As the top of the blade widens to more than an extreme knife edge its gauge corner must be restored with fine abrasive paper so that the wheel isn't simply pushed upwards, which was the problem you, Simon, were originally mentioning (there being no flange lubricators!) Tony mentions most of this on the related Questions thread. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5728&start=50
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Simon Moore

Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby Simon Moore » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:48 pm

Jullian thank you for the information. Thats very helpful & i had never thought about doing this to point blades. I have worked in EM & the overscaled flanges have taken care of any issues on the pointblades.

David Knight
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby David Knight » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:14 pm

The “Wheel, rail, blade” sketch illustrates the point brilliantly. Once again proving that a picture is worth, at minimum, a thousand words.

Cheers,

David

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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby davebradwell » Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:14 pm

It's worth looking up Julian's original thread from which these illustrations have been taken as there's a lengthy but very interesting discussion and further diagrams. Unfortunately titled "joggled stockrails" it strayed well off-piste. One of the better forum results.

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allanferguson
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby allanferguson » Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:42 pm

One point (sorry) not mentioned is the need for the switch rail to fit the stock rail snugly all along its length. The prototype often / usually has two stretchers driven from the same linkage to ensure this. Our rails are proportionaly less flexible than the prototype's

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Julian Roberts
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:50 pm

Winander wrote:
allanferguson wrote:The set needs to be just the right angle, and in the proper place.


I always understood that that was the critical objective and the set compensates for the width in the switch rail. Any planing of the switch tip is to guide the wheel onto the switch rail and not to compensate for its width.



Hi Richard

'Just the right angle' is created by following the instructions below.

Here is a real set. Photo kindly uploaded by Allan F some time ago somewhere on the Forum

Set.JPG



Here is what I have learned from "Real Track" on Templot. Unfortunately the link I had doesn't work, I think because Martin Wynne is rebuilding the Templot website. The below applies to turnouts where the main route is straight.

Planing.PNG

This diagram shows the main route blade and the diverging stockrail. The stockgauge is the vertical line at the right, at the end of the planing where the blade has reached full width (29mm length for a B blade). The stockrail must be gauged one rail width wider than the track gauge here. On the left at the vertical line, the set just precedes the tip of the blade. The stockrail bends abruptly at the set and goes absolutely straight to the stockgauge. (From that place onwards it curves away on the diverging route.) The blade is designed to fit into the space thus made available for it between the set and stockgauge. As the diagram shows, it should lie right up against the stockrail all the way from tip to stockgauge . If it is shaped correctly (as discussed above) it won't be undergauge relative to the opposite stockrail.

This diagram shows both stockrails and blades. The diverging blade is a mirror image of the first blade, thus is not undergauge similarly, again assuming it is lying right up against the stockrail for its entire length
.
Stockgauge diagram.PNG


Obviously only one blade is closed against the stock rail normally

20201103_131120.jpg


Now copied and pasted from the Templot Real Track except my photo is added in the middle -

Straight turnout:

To make a size B curved stock rail for a straight turnout in 4mm/ft scale, do this:

1. Make two marks on the rail with a fine felt-tip pen, 29.3mm apart.

2. At the first mark make the "set", a sharply-defined shallow bend. Sharply-defined means that it is very clearly in one particular place on the rail, a kink, not a curve. Shallow means it is a very slight angle (1:32). It's very easy to overdo the angle, but you can flatten it back by squeezing the rail in flat pliers.

For a simple way of making a precise bend, see:

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=492&forum_id=6

3. Make sure the section of rail between there and the next mark is dead straight. Don't inadvertently curve it.

4. Beyond the second mark you can gently curve the rail between your fingers.

5. Lay the rail on the template. If it is a Templot template the two marks will be on the template. You can align the rail over the template and check that the set angle matches the template. Time spent at this stage checking and adjusting will be well repaid later. If you have stuck the timbers on the template, it is worth printing off another one to check the rail against more easily.

6. Fix the straight stock rail first, it is just plain rail.

7. Start fixing the curved stock rail at the switch front, gauging from the straight stock rail in the usual way. Don't go beyond the set yet.

8. Transfer your attention to the second mark, location X in the diagram above where the rails begin to diverge. Measure the "stock gauge", that's the distance between the two stock rails at this location, i.e. between X and Y in the diagram. It should be exactly one rail width greater than the track gauge. For 4mm scale that means:

00-SF stock gauge = 16.20 + 0.92 = 17.12mm

EM stock gauge = 18.20 + 0.92 = 19.12mm

P4 stock gauge = 18.83 + 0.92 = 19.75mm

If you don't have a suitable means of making this measurement, you can improvise by combining an oddment of rail with your track gauge tool.
Stockgauge made.PNG

9. If the stock gauge is correct, you can fix the stock rail at X. If it isn't, you may be able to adjust the set bend slightly in situ. If it is a long way out, you should remove the stock rail and correct the set bend angle. Don't try to correct the stock gauge by curving the rail, the section between the marks must be dead straight as shown.

10. If all is well, you can now fix the rail between the marks, checking with a straight-edge that it is dead straight. Then work forward over the curved section, aligning to the template.

For an A switch, the 29.3mm dimension between the marks is shortened to 22.0mm (i.e. the set angle is 1:24). The stock-gauge remains the same as before.

A bit of practice helps of course. Don't expect to get it perfect on your very first turnout. You will soon discover the importance of checking the rail against the template before starting to fix it down.

11. If you get it right you will find adding the switch blades later is dead easy. They will seat properly along the full length of the planing and almost gauge themselves.

More diagrams and notes about all this at: http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_realtrack.htm

Curved turnout:

For a curved turnout the procedure is essentially the same, and it's a good idea to prepare the stock rail first as if it was for a straight turnout. The difference is that the dead straight section should then be curved to match the outer radius for the turnout. In other words the orange-coloured sections on the diagram above are all either straight or all curved to the same radius. The smaller turnout radius (the inner radius) begins only where the rails diverge. The stock gauge and lengths remain unchanged.

To get this right, it's a good idea to print a rails-only copy of the template on tracing paper, and lay it on top of the rails during construction to check the alignments.


Here is the previous photo, with the blade now added fitting into the space made available. It must not be undergauge to the opposite stockrail, neither at the tip nor at the stockgauge!

Stockgauge plus blade 1.PNG


Winander wrote:
Unless you have joggles - an entirely separate prototype method.


Here is a Templot diagram showing the joggled type switch, taking us back to the start of what Dave calls a good thrashing(!) at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6399

Martin Wynne joggles.PNG


It thrashes the widespread misunderstandings about the set and the joggle - some people use the word set when they are talking about the joggle apparently. There is a joggle on BOTH stockrails. The set is thereby a lesser angle than in the preceding section.

Joggles as per the prototype create 0.125mm space for a blade tip that thickness. Normally in P4 people made overscale joggles of say 0.25mm. A blade that thick is comparatively easy to make and is maybe a typical EM or 00 thickness(?) Here is an A switch that I made as per the instructions in the joggled stockrails thread, with overscale joggles. The nicks in the rail to make a crisp joggle make it look even worse, but this is for the fiddleyard. The chairing was for practice.
Joggle A11 for Kyle 2.jpg
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Last edited by Julian Roberts on Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:21 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:42 am

Julian Roberts wrote:Here is what I have learned from "Real Track" on Templot. Unfortunately the link I had doesn't work, I think because Martin Wynne is rebuilding the Templot website.

Hi Julian,

The "Real Track" page is at:

https://85a.uk/templot/companion/real_track.php

cheers,

Martin.
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allanferguson
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby allanferguson » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:49 am

Just a word of warning. Joggles, tho' quite often seen on models seem to be unusual on the prototype. I seem to recall a warning against them being used for main line traffic in a trailing direction. Certainly I've never seen or heard of any in Scotland.

Allan F

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:00 pm

allanferguson wrote:Just a word of warning. Joggles, tho' quite often seen on models seem to be unusual on the prototype. I seem to recall a warning against them being used for main line traffic in a trailing direction. Certainly I've never seen or heard of any in Scotland.

Hi Allan,

Joggles are used on all GWR and BR(W) switch designs. On REA switches (used by other companies), both straightcut (joggled) and undercut (no joggle) designs exist for all switches. But the joggled versions are intended for use in facing traffic only. In other words, if there is an FPL (facing points lock) on an REA switch it is feasible to find joggles, but not always. Otherwise not, just a plain set on one side only.

Scale joggles are difficult to model, almost all model joggles are overscale in depth. On the prototype the joggle can be quite hard to see from more than a few yards. Here is a GWR joggle, it is only 3/8" deep:

Image

For comparison, 3/8" is half the blunt nose width on a crossing vee.

cheers,

Martin.
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allanferguson
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16inch Hunslet

Postby allanferguson » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:37 pm

Martin

Where would we be without your expertise! All my knowledge comes from Templot. The set pictured above, by the way, is in the Scottish Railway Museum in Bo'ness, and the motor drive must see more use than the average hump yard did --- every time a party of youngsters goes through! Not at present, though. I hope you are keeping safe in these times.

Allan F

Simon Moore

Re: Simons workbench industrials. Slag ladles

Postby Simon Moore » Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:53 pm

With a day off work today for a few appointments i decided to finish off my slag ladle wagon. I got the last of the parts fitted & painted it up in revell 84 which is a nice dark rust brown colour.

20210325_134245.jpg

20210325_134251.jpg

20210325_134301.jpg


Once the paint has hardened off i am going to give it some weathering with some grey, white & then a bit of light rust weathering powder. I still have the operating chain to thread through all the pulleys too.
Now i know its possible to build these in P4 i am going to build the other 3. I might make a start this evening once the kids are in bed.
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Will L
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. Slag ladles

Postby Will L » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:10 pm

To complete the job, all you need now is a load that glows eerily red in the dark.

Simon Moore

Re: Simons workbench industrials. Slag ladles

Postby Simon Moore » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:27 pm

I have been pondering how i can replicate the glow of slag & make a load. I have seen a 00 model with a yellow & bright red paint layered top with some textured effect on. Looked ok but not what i want.

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Will L
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. Slag ladles

Postby Will L » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:08 pm

I was joking. But if your serious about this, a red LED or two inside in the load should do it? While it may be a bit late to fit pickups to the wagon to power them, an LED will run for quite a while off a button battery. Then fit a push for on push for off switch under the load so you don't spend a fortune on batteries.

Simon Moore

Re: Simons workbench industrials. Slag ladles

Postby Simon Moore » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:04 am

Well yesterday was interesting.

I quit my job! I will not tolerate bully's especially when i myself am disabled & need tools to do a job & i am denied them by a cantakourous old git. As they say one door closes another opens. I have a new job to start on the 6th so with just over a week off i have got the hunslet back out of storage.

I am going to use my time wisely & get Primrose no2 built & hopefully painted. I got the model out this morning & all the associated parts so i can have a good start once again. I should have the basic body built over the next couple of days & then i can get a feel for how it will look.

I have a feeling i may need to re assemble the chassis though but i am going to work on getting the body built firstly. This will spur me on to get it finished whatever the chassis needs.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. Slag ladles

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:06 pm

Good for you.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Simon Moore

Re: Simons workbench industrials. Slag ladles

Postby Simon Moore » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:03 pm

Cheers Tony

With the wife out delivering with the kids i had a perfect opportunity to settle into the workshop for an hour or so. Its been very productive & i have managed to get the whole of the cab built & both the cab & smokebox baseplates fitted with all the nuts needed to hold them in place.

20210327_142416.jpg


Next job is rolling the boiler which i will do later today. I think i will roll the saddle also whilst i am in the garage then both components are done.
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Simon Moore

Re: Simons workbench industrials. Slag ladles

Postby Simon Moore » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:29 pm

Roof sections, boiler & saddle tank now all rolled.

20210327_155917.jpg


Edit

Parts now built & assembled

20210327_191148.jpg
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