Simons workbench industrials. More mineral wagons

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davebradwell
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16t mineral wagon

Postby davebradwell » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:18 am

It still looks a bit heavy - it should be 2 1/2" wide (0.83mm). I got fed up with transfers which seemed to need cutting down and were difficult to get straight so I just draw them on with several strokes of a bow pen - it's very easy with these wider lines and much quicker.

DaveB

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Noel
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16t mineral wagon

Postby Noel » Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:41 pm

davebradwell wrote:It still looks a bit heavy - it should be 2 1/2" wide (0.83mm).

BryanJohnson wrote:For the British Railways period, the top of the white line to show the end door on an all-steel mineral should line up around the door hinges rather than the top corner of the side panel.


As built most 16T minerals had the white line running from the edge of the vertical framing next to the side door to the edge of the vertical framing next to the end door, at the level of that door's hinges, but without going onto any part of the framing, i.e. the ends were vertical, not at right angles to the line. After repainting all sorts of variations occurred, although the most common was a shorter line, aligned in the same way as the original, but shorter as it has right angled ends. Hopefully that makes sense - as ever consult photos contemporary with your period.

The bad news, I'm afraid, is that the brake shoes are on the wrong side; they should be on the side with the Morton clutch and the other way round [as they won't work that way round]. The other, much easier to correct, bad news is that B244920 was probably a 1/109 rivetted vehicle. I say "probably", since Rowland [BR Wagons] shows it as 1/108, welded, but Bartlett et al [An Illustrated History of BR Wagons Vol 1], Larkin [Wagons of the Middle BR Era] and Fidczuk [Modellers' Backtrack Vol 1 nos 3-5] all show it as 1/109. This conflict also applies to all later Cambrian built wagons.
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Noel

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16t mineral wagon

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:13 pm

Noel wrote:As built most 16T minerals had the white line running from the edge of the vertical framing next to the side door to the edge of the vertical framing next to the end door, at the level of that door's hinges, but without going onto any part of the framing, i.e. the ends were vertical, not at right angles to the line.

As in pictures here https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=81790#p81762
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Keith
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davebradwell
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16t mineral wagon

Postby davebradwell » Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:14 pm

The moral here is never publish a photo of a 16t mineral that you've made - I've known strong men reduced to wrecks following the amount of faults folk can find with such an innocent looking subject. It's possible to get the body the wrong way round - has anybody checked that? Even BR got that wrong on some of their rebuilds.

DaveB

Terry Bendall
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16t mineral wagon

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:01 am

davebradwell wrote:The moral here is never publish a photo of a 16t mineral that you've made


As someone once said to me "Show me a picture to prove that it didn't happen." Lots of odd things happened when wagons were re-painted or even with the first painting. :)

Terry Bendall

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Noel
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16t mineral wagon

Postby Noel » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:19 am

Terry Bendall wrote:Lots of odd things happened when wagons were re-painted or even with the first painting.

There is some truth in this for repaints, which were done by multiple shops, but for new builds we are not discussing small numbers here; Pressed Steel alone produced around 50,000 of the things, other manufacturers smaller numbers, but still several thousands each. They were jig built on production lines, to ensure standardisation.

davebradwell wrote: It's possible to get the body the wrong way round - has anybody checked that? Even BR got that wrong on some of their rebuilds.

The body orientation on BR rebuilds was random, so far as is known, so statistically speaking should have approached 50/50, but the markings would have been different. The body on Simon's is the right way round.

davebradwell wrote:The moral here is never publish a photo of a 16t mineral that you've made - I've known strong men reduced to wrecks following the amount of faults folk can find with such an innocent looking subject.

:thumb :thumb :D

Simon has used one of Justin's chassis, which to me, along with the standard of his locos, implies a serious interest in achieving the best result possible. Are we not to provide constructive criticism to help him with this objective, both for the current example and future ones?
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Noel

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BryanJohnson
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16t mineral wagon

Postby BryanJohnson » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:49 pm

Terry Bendall wrote
Lots of odd things happened when wagons were re-painted or even with the first painting.


I would agree with this for some areas, but I haven't seen any incorrect end door white lines. This is one of those common errors which was pointed out to me many years ago in similar circumstances. Once you've realised what was done, anything else sticks out.

One area where differences do arise is the painting of bodywork stanchions where they continue below the bottom of the bodywork. On a steel mineral wagon, this is around the side doors and at the fixed ends. Some vehicles have all of part of the stanchions in body colour, others have everything below the bottom of the body in black. Simon's photos don't show what he has done at the fixed end, but I'd take anything here as correct and have included a number of variations in my own models.

Paul Hutfield
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16t mineral wagon

Postby Paul Hutfield » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:45 pm

Simon,

I'd incorrectly assumed when I first read Noel's comments that it was indeed the orientation of the body that was incorrect, however as later confirmed the positioning is correct. I was actually hoping it was this that Noel had noticed as theoretically it would probably have been an easy thing to correct.

I have however gone back and read Noel's feedback properly and can see what Noel has noticed about the orientation of the brakes now. It's an easy mistake to make and I can assure you that I've found out the hard way on this one too having invested several hours only to spot it once fully assembled. The issue is with the orientation of the brake push rods and the brake tumbler. If you operate the brake lever, the central brake shaft rotates clockwise and unfortunately it currently has the effect of pushing the brake shoes further away from the tyre rather than applying the brakes.

With regards to solutions, I suggest you turn a blind eye to the brakes on this particular chassis if you can and bank it as knowledge gained for the next ones you build. Besides it's likely to be barely noticeable for instance if the brake shoes are facing the backscene (being single sided brake gear) with even fewer chances of people able to notice from a distance. If anyone does, then congratulate them and chuckle about your lesson learnt! It may even have been an error made by a new apprentice for instance and not picked up by the workshop foreman at the time! (Unlikely to be fair, but worth a try!)

The stripe is easier to alter if you feel it necessary. Unfortunately it will stand out if the others going forwards are suitably modified, but assuming your period is circa 70's then it may well be plausible for internal user wagon's etc.

Bottom line though, well done on completing your chassis and great to see another of Justin's kits make it to the running stage! The majority are most likely in their packets, so you can certainly take pride in reaching this stage! I look forward to seeing you results on the 21T's next! :)

Paul

Simon Moore
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. 16t mineral wagon

Postby Simon Moore » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:31 am

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I must admit nearly 40 pages for a wagon chassis you kind of loose yourself from time to time. I struggle with text instructions i prefer diagrams my own personal preference of course.

Its a first wagon, it looks ok to me & once weathered & put in a rake of wagons i am sure it will blend in. I have certainly learnt from it & next time i think I'm best getting photos of what i am making.

I decided to get working back on a job i have had in the workshop a while now. This is a london road models kit for a 4ft6 tank. I'm only making the body for it, its a lovely kit though.

20210118_143519.jpg

Simon Moore
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Simon Moore » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:16 pm

I have started my christmas present today that my wife got me. Its a high level RSH 14inch saddle tank.

So far so good, i put the basic chassis together this evening & ìts been dead easy to make so far & enjoyable.

IMG-20210201-WA0148.jpeg


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20210201_133337.jpg


Tomorrow i will quarter the wheels & give the chassis a quick test to make sure all is well before proceeding further. I don't like to take gibson wheels on & off to many times.

Winander
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Winander » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:28 pm

Simon Moore wrote: I don't like to take gibson wheels on & off to many times.


Hello Simon,

It is often said on here never take them off at all.
Richard Hodgson

Simon Moore
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Simon Moore » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:42 pm

My only issue with that is the painting of the chassis. 1 axle is fixed & so i cannot just drop the wheelset out.
How do people paint if wheels are still in situ out of curiosity?

nigelcliffe
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby nigelcliffe » Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:38 am

Simon Moore wrote:My only issue with that is the painting of the chassis. 1 axle is fixed & so i cannot just drop the wheelset out.
How do people paint if wheels are still in situ out of curiosity?


One approach is a sacrificial set, used during construction, then use the real set for final assembly.

Another would be to modify the chassis so the "fixed" bearing allows the complete axle to drop out - split bearing or similar may fit, but has to be fabricated.

- Nigel

Simon Moore
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Simon Moore » Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:32 am

I have often thought about a sacrificial set but I'm a yorkshireman & that saying short arms, long pockets applies. I have seen members on rmweb mask up the chassis & spray it with wheels in situ. I have never dared do this approach although maybe it might be worth a try.
I think Iain rice does this approach whilst applying power to the motor.

nigelcliffe
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby nigelcliffe » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:05 am

Simon Moore wrote:I have often thought about a sacrificial set but I'm a yorkshireman & that saying short arms, long pockets applies. I have seen members on rmweb mask up the chassis & spray it with wheels in situ. I have never dared do this approach although maybe it might be worth a try.
I think Iain rice does this approach whilst applying power to the motor.


"short arms". If you had really short arms, you'd be just buying a Hornby/Hattons industrial, and running it on Peco OO. Doing stuff in Scalefour, from High Level kit, means you've decided to spend more.


- Nigel

Simon Moore
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Simon Moore » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:30 am

You make a good point that i cannot argue with ;)

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Will L
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Will L » Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:21 pm

Look at it this way if you take one set off a time or two so they are no longer tight on the axle and need replacing, you'll have a spare set.

But yes Mr rice used to spay through spinning wheelies. It works but you are inclined to get too much paint on the wheels.

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Will L
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Will L » Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:30 pm

Alternatively. Given the axle hole is so close to the chassis edge, gap the edge of the axle hole so its wide enough for an 1/8 axle to pass through but not the bush and you will then be able to drop both axles out. You may need to fit the axle bushes from inside the chassis.

Philip Hall
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:36 pm

I agree with only putting the wheels on once. I paint the chassis, at least around the wheels and brakes, with perhaps the brakes bent out of the way of the wheels slightly, and I prepare and paint the wheels before they go on. Almost the last job, apart from some fiddly plumbing close to the wheels which can be attached with epoxy or cyano, is that the wheels are fitted using the GW press. With my usual procedure of checking and truing if required the wheels usually go on without wobble.

What I do always do is to fit the wheels to a wooden axle so that I can exactly judge the amount of sideplay required and what washers might be needed. There is no need for the wheels to be quartered, they only need to be set to the correct back to back. Apart from some basic initial measurements with a vernier, I never calculate the required sideplay precisely. So long as there’s movement enough to get around corners and clearance behind slidebars that’s OK. Finally when the wheels go on properly that should be it.

Philip

Simon Moore
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Simon Moore » Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:26 pm

I have a feeling another set my be ordered as back up. Although they are still tight on the axle & they have been off once. I find with gibson wheels you get a max of 4 times being taken off the axle.

I have however managed to get the chassis rolling very sweetly with no friction. The axles do however need a bit of slack taking up. The leading driver has plenty of side play & will need taking up to stop any binding on the crossheads.

20210202_152521.jpg


A nice kit so far, very enjoyable.

Daddyman
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Daddyman » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:02 pm

I may be missing something but... if you only ever take the same side off, as Will suggests, then can't you glue that (potentially loose) side if necessary (and only that side) when it comes to final fixing? That would allow you to take them on and off to your heart's content, safe in the knowledge that both wheels on the axle will be firmly fixed: one by the glue, and one by Colin's moulding. From what I gather most people glue them anyway, though Chris Pendlenton has thoughts on that...

In my experience, Gibsons will take a lot more on-and-offing than is usually assumed, though it does seem to depend on wheel size.

Winander
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Winander » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:10 pm

I think I am definitely missing something. Why not paint the chassis before you put the wheels on for the first time? If you have seated the top hat bearing in the etched hole on the fixed axle properly, I cannot see a need to remove that axle. If the other (removable) one requires adjusting, any damage to the paintwork can be touched up.
Richard Hodgson

David Knight
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby David Knight » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:50 pm

Simon,

If you feel you *must* order more wheels a single set should do as the pair on the front axle should be fine as they drop out. Should you later venture into the world of CSBs then the problem disappears, well, for the purposes of painting anyway.

Cheers,

David

PS, an excellent choice of kit, I built one a while back and have been very pleased with it. There is nothing quite like one of Chris’s bespoke gearboxes.

Simon Moore
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Simon Moore » Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:49 pm

Today has been a very productive day if i do say so myself!

I have had 2 very relaxing sessions in the workshop today & i have managed to really get on with the RSH. The body i found very well designed overall although i did find the tabs a bit tight. I don't like tab & slot so much as i find they are either very tight or very sloppy but each to there own i guess.

To say i have not spent much time on the kit its amazing how quickly this has come together. I will be switching back to the lnwr kit now as i want that out the door at the weekend.

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20210202_210634.jpg


20210202_211217.jpg


I am really looking forward to working on this one again soon.

Enigma
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Re: Simons workbench industrials. RSH high level kit

Postby Enigma » Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:09 pm

I always make all my axles - including the driven one - 'drop out able' with a keeper plate. Easy enough with a compensated or sprung chassis. No need to remove wheels once they're fitted. I only once removed AG wheels and tried to refit them and they didn't grip at all so never done it since. I've also never glued a wheel on. I chemically blacken my chassis's prior to painting and follow Tony Wright's method of first coat of brushed gloss black enamel followed by dirtying down with shades of acrylics. Real chassis are rather mucky so a pristine paint finish is probably a bit OTT.


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