Ralph's workbench

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ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:58 pm

It has been a long time since my last post and I have not really done very much modelling either. The clubrooms were planned to be open again for 6 people on the 19th October and I thought I should actually get back to the buildings I had been making and get something finished so they could be placed on the layout which we would get access to again. Wishful thinking.....

Right now it looks more likely it will be next year before we get back in the building to do some work, little we can do about that. Anyway, I did get going again with the factory I am working on and started thinking about the row of shops which would sit on the other side of the road.

The factory is actually the home of 'Langan, Stubbs & Whitnall Precision Engineering' and most of you will know these were actually names of former MMRS club members who were trailblazers in EM gauge. The factory only wanted a stone plaque adding above the front door and I added one to a test etch I was doing a few weeks ago so it only needed painting and sticking on the wall.

20201024_124932.jpg


The factory just wants a loading bay working and some interior detailing. I found a STL file for a lathe on the web and printed one on my Photon and it came out very well so I may populate the factory with a group of lathes. I couldn't find one of a milling machine but I am still looking - it would be nice to have some of those on the shop floor too.

In the meantime I was looking for some shops which we could make. We need a run of shops on top of the bridge acting as a view blocker on the layout and I had a look on the Manchester Libraries photographic website. This site is rich in information and photos of all sorts of subjects from around Manchester and I found a photo that I thought would make some interesting shops. https://images.manchester.gov.uk/

20201028_130757.jpg


I started to draw these up using my method of making a ply frame and card overlays on the laser cutter. The row of shops is about 18 inches long, 450mm so it just fit the bed of the cutter which takes up to 500mm max. (There's a slight after thought on the doorways at the front - forgot to add access to the flats above the building).

20201022_154643_001.jpg


Now got to the stage of trying to make up the shop fronts. Thought for a while on how to make a window and eventually thought of trying out some microscope slides I had in the drawer. A mock up was made and it looks very promising so the next step is to make 3 modules which slide into the openings so that they can be detailed from inside.

20201028_130922.jpg
Prototype shop front made from microscope slide.


20201028_130940.jpg


Shops at this stage at the moment. Need to get back on the laser and work on a shop module that will slot in front the front.

Whilst trawling for inspiration I came across this photo on the Manchester Libraries site which is of shops actually on the opposite side of the road from the one I am using. The photo was taken on the 8th March 1959 and shows just how amazing road vehicles were at that time, a Bedford van and a 1930s roadster (I have no idea of the make and model).

20201028_130855.jpg


Ralph

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Noel
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby Noel » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:35 pm

ralphrobertson wrote: (There's a slight after thought on the doorways at the front - forgot to add access to the flats above the building).


Looking at the two photos you included, I'm not at all sure that there was access to the flats shown in either. I don't know about Manchester in particular, but have come across several instances in various places where access to the flats was from the rear.
Regards
Noel

bécasse
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby bécasse » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:31 pm

510 and 512 Wilbraham Road are still there, although the shop occupancy has, unsurprisingly, changed. Courtesy of Google Streetview I can confirm that there is no separate access to the accommodation above the shops from the front of the building. I am inclined to suspect that, when built, the living accommodation was occupied in each case by the shop owner, a practice that was commonplace throughout metropolitan England in the late-Victorian and Edwardian eras, (hence the expression "living above the shop").

All the buildings look very nice, Ralph, well in keeping with the MMRS tradition, and I do very much like the ownership plaque for the factory. Geoff Platt first introduced me to John, Sid and Norman at Easter 1962 when Presson was exhibited at the MRC's Easter Show at Central Hall, Westminster, and I determined on the spot that I would aim to become a MMRS member when the opportunity presented itself. That opportunity arose on a Sunday half-day excursion from St.Pancras (but return to Marylebone) to see the "affair at Hanging Ditch" in December 1964 and I have been proud to be a member ever since. I was also one of the owners of the first ever P4 layout to appear at an MMRS show, all but 49 years ago now.

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:54 am

The model has been made to fit the space and is based on the photo not a direct copy so I introduced the door to make everything look symmetrical. The doors for the end shops are on the ends of the building, makes best use of the space for what we need.

I too, David, was sold on finescale once I saw Presson at the Corn Exchange as a lad. Perfect running and the coupling/uncoupling of the AJs made it all look spot on for me. Also I remember seeing those lovely L&Y coloured wagons, I think probably made by Norman Dale, which made watching shunting more interested for a youngster.

Here is a shot from Google Streetview of the shops today. What a difference and it is a shame that most of the premises have now turned into fast food outlets, a sign of these modern times. The presentation of the facade doesn't even look pleasant in my view and thank God we are not modelling the current period but the 1950s and 1960s.

Ralph
20201028_130812.jpg

Jeremy Suter
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby Jeremy Suter » Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:59 pm

[quote="ralphrobertson"

Whilst trawling for inspiration I came across this photo on the Manchester Libraries site which is of shops actually on the opposite side of the road from the one I am using. The photo was taken on the 8th March 1959 and shows just how amazing road vehicles were at that time, a Bedford van and a 1930s roadster (I have no idea of the make and model).

20201028_130855.jpg

Ralph[/quote]
Hi Ralph I a pretty sure the car is a Jowett flying Fox dates from about 1932

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:26 pm

Thanks for pointing out the car Jeremy, don't recall seeing many of those around in the 1950s.

The shop building has progressed since the last posting and now has a set of removeable shop fronts. The left hand end will include a newsagents and the centre pair of shops are destined to be a motor cycle dealer. Not sure what the right hand end will be yet, it is going to be left to Rob, who is going to detail this, to decide.

20201105_120458.jpg


The windows are cut from microscope slides and have made cleaning up the glue much easier. They have come out very well and really stiffen up the structure. All the shop fronts are removeable for now so that the interiors can be easily detailed. Here is a shot of the left hand end.

20201105_120509.jpg
Left hand shop windows.


Ralph

DougN
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby DougN » Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:16 am

Looking great there Ralph.

I am finding it challenging to look at photos and figure out dimensions I even have a drawing of a station I would like to build but the but it is only the elevation of the front and rear. So onto the internet to look at photos to figure out the dimensions. I can figure out a few from the photos but it is an extra challenge. The building is similar too Kettleness on the Saltburn - Whitby line. Which is a NER brick station there seems to be enough photos and information to do a reasonable representation! :thumb
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

davebradwell
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby davebradwell » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:53 am

DougN, I can come up with an A4 drg of stations on the Pickering and Seamer Branch - try Wykeham, Forge Valley, etc. Looks similar but might not survive close study. There'll be something in the 3 vols of NER Architecture but it will take some finding.

DaveB

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:07 am

Thanks Doug. Getting dimensions from photos can be tricky and we have so often ended up counting bricks. In fact most of the buildings we have made have been scaled this way. Just to confuse things here is a photo of a print I got from Manchester Libraries website showing a building which Rob has made, link to the original here https://images.manchester.gov.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=44876&reftable=ecatalogue&refirn=59676.

20201106_095714.jpg


There are quite a few different bonds of brickwork on this building and it was quite tricky working out the sizes when I drew it all up for Rob. We usually work on a brick at 3mm long and courses every 1mm but on Alpha Mill that just didn't work out. The architects drawings showed dimensions and the number of courses and I had to draw them out at 1.1mm per course which then all worked out spot on. For some buildings there are 4 courses to every 13 inches rather than 12.

Good luck with your project.

Ralph

JFS
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby JFS » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:02 am

Whoever built this model made a nice job of the brickwork, but a shocking mess of bedding it into the scenery :D

Building.jpg


Good to see the excellent work continues Ralph!

Best Wishes,

bécasse
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby bécasse » Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:40 pm

There are quite a few different bonds of brickwork on this building and it was quite tricky working out the sizes when I drew it all up for Rob. We usually work on a brick at 3mm long and courses every 1mm but on Alpha Mill that just didn't work out. The architects drawings showed dimensions and the number of courses and I had to draw them out at 1.1mm per course which then all worked out spot on. For some buildings there are 4 courses to every 13 inches rather than 12.



Although generalisations can be dangerous, there was a definite trend for bricks to become fatter (ie less courses for a given height) as one moved north-westward across the UK, at least south of the Scottish border. I am almost surprised here that four courses were only 13" high, I would have expected at least 13½".

What can be said is that most door and window openings, at least in simple buildings, tended to be to round imperial dimensions - so, for example, a door might be 6', 6'3", 6'6", 6'9", 7'0", etc tall. Arches comprised of soldier bricks, which would have been 9" tall including the mortar above them, can also be a useful check.

A Ralph suggests, drawing up a building and seeing what looks right can be very useful, particularly if you use a computer drawing package like Inkscape (which is freeware) where you can not only easily adjust the overall height of a drawing but also mount it over a ghost of a photograph making comparison much easier.

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:03 pm

Here is Rob Ogden's building which we based on the photo of Coates School. It slopes just like the terraced houses.

IMG-2028.JPG

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:50 am

Been a while since I posted but things have progressed a bit. The shops have been passed across to Rob Ogden of the Manchester club who wanted to detail the shop fronts and finish them off which I am only too happy to do. Before passing them across I had to make sure he had all the relevant bits he needed so it was back to drawing up the necessary bits.

Here is the basic shell that I passed over to Rob.

20201118_144027.jpg


To finish it Rob needed the shaped roof segments to fit once the windows had been glued in. The windows were cut on the laser, 3 layers and glued together. The glazing bars are a bit fine but they came out well on the laser.

20201118_144809.jpg


I decided to see if the Photon 3D printer could make some nice decorative ridge tiles so I spent a few hours messing about with Fusion 360 trying to get the profiles right and eventually I got it right. I have to say that whilst I can draw 2D with Coreldraw standing on my head 3D drawing is something else but I will get there one day! Anyway, Rob needed several ridge tile runs and also some gutters. The downpipe brackets were done before and used on the factory. I have used the Modelu ones which are excellent but they don't have any spigot to firmly anchor them to the wall and with these models needing to be handled I thought it wise to produce my own version.

The green resin from Anycubic is stronger than the grey resin which is why the gutters and downpipe brackets are that colour. I have tried the Elegoo water washable resin too but find that far too flexible and I won't be buying any more of that preferring at the moment to stick to the grey and green Anycubic resin. At prices of £25 or so it is a bit pricey to experiment with these resins and the price of IPA for washing them has risen quite a bit since Covid, I bought in a load last year fortunately.

20201118_193514.jpg
3D printed ridge tiles - the ones with the distorted tops were printed upside down, now they are all printed right way up and are all correct.


20201118_144258.jpg
Short gutters, long gutters and downpipe brackets


The final bits I needed to print were the chimneys. Tony Williams has rather a nice chimney in his garden which Chris Morgan of our club drew up on Fusion (he is much better at it than me!) and was appropriate for our building. I printed a load of these for the shops, 14 chimney stacks in total.

20201118_144155.jpg
Chimneys loosely placed for photo


That completed all the bits and it was a pleasure to pass it all over to Rob who is making good progress. I will post some photos when he sends them to me as he is not a S4 member. I did include in the pack a couple of sets of shop detailing kits I had in stock for years. These are Langley whitemetal castings, one for a motorcycle shop and another for a hardware store. This is why the middle set of shops is going to be a motorbike shop and one of the others might be a hardware shop, I will leave it to Rob to decide .

In the meantime I have gone back to finishing some of my other buildings with work on the Langan Stubbs and Whitnall factory continuing. I have been populating the inside of the factory with the machines required for them to make a living.

20201124_143100.jpg
Factory shop floor with lathes and milling machines


Busy making a little office for the factory at the moment, none of this will be particularly detailed just a representation as it can be seen through the rather large windows.

If anyone wants to know anything more about the techniques I am using please ask. The next building which will come off the line will be an L&Y weighbridge and I will try and cover that in much more detail including providing the drawings in case anyone wants to build one. It is only a small building so it won't be using a ply frame just 1.5mm mounting board and thin card overlays.

Ralph

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Paul Willis
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:28 pm

ralphrobertson wrote:That completed all the bits and it was a pleasure to pass it all over to Rob who is making good progress. I will post some photos when he sends them to me as he is not a S4 member. I did include in the pack a couple of sets of shop detailing kits I had in stock for years. These are Langley whitemetal castings, one for a motorcycle shop and another for a hardware store. This is why the middle set of shops is going to be a motorbike shop and one of the others might be a hardware shop, I will leave it to Rob to decide.


Stunning stuff Ralph.

One of those Photons is on the long-list for Christmas gifts. However, I don't know what type of Photon to go for. The whole resin printing thing seems to be going through a bit of a generational change to mono 4k screens, and I'm sure there will be more models along soon...

I smiled at the idea of a motorbike shop in the middle of a row in the high street. Whilst that may be an anomaly in the modern British shopping world, I was so pleased to see this in the middle of a rather posh (embassies, government departments, etc) area of central Paris on a trip over there a couple of years ago...

Parisian shopping.jpg


Looking forward to seeing more from you!

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Terry Bendall
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:04 pm

Very nice Ralph. Looking back I see you found some files on the web to produce the lathe models and no doubt you have now found something for the milling machines. In your period there would probably still be some overhead line shaft about in factories but that might be a step too far. :)

If you can do it a few other machines, horizontal milling machines, shaping machines and even a planing machines would add some variation along with some work benches but easy for me to say that - I don't have to make them. :)

Terry Bendall

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:47 am

One of those Photons is on the long-list for Christmas gifts. However, I don't know what type of Photon to go for. The whole resin printing thing seems to be going through a bit of a generational change to mono 4k screens, and I'm sure there will be more models along soon.


Yes, that is certainly true. I have 2 3D printers, one a Photon resin and another which is rarely used and is a Print-rite PLA printer. I have had the PLA printer for 2 or 3 years now and I have never been able to get on with it, these days I only use it for printing brackets for servo mounts, AJ mounting blocks and things like that. Also you (me really) end up spending a lot of time messing around getting the values right to make sure it prints at the right temperature etc etc. In comparison the Photon worked straight out of the box, messy perhaps but I don't experience the smell that others talk about. Perhaps its me but normally it sits in the shed next to the laser cutter but the last week or so it has been in the workshop inside the house (3rd small bedroom) so I don't have to keep heating the shed and even the Mrs says she can't smell anything. In terms of bed size so far the only thing I haven't been able to print properly which I wanted to was the side of a girder bridge, the machine just wasn't big enough but perhaps one of the bigger machines coming on the market now would be. The Photon I have is now over 12 months old and cost me around £250, gone down in price now but the quality coming off it is amazing and I am printing at standard settings. It is possible to refine it and print finer but I can't see any stepping lines using the standard setting.

Currently trying to print some chairs for the office. Found a Ford V6 engine block on Thingiverse and printed a few of those, probably totally wrong for our period in the engineering works but couldn't resist giving our Sid (Stubbs) a new toy to play with.

20201129_094917.jpg


Here is the set up in the workshop right now. Photon, a couple of IPA baths and a cheap (Aldi I think) ultrasonic cleaner.

20201117_121959.jpg


If you can do it a few other machines, horizontal milling machines, shaping machines and even a planing machines would add some variation along with some work benches but easy for me to say that - I don't have to make them. :)


You are right Terry, it would be nice but unless I can find some STL files on the web which I can print there won't be anything other than what I have now. Once the roof goes on to the top floor these things are hardly visible unless someone puts lights in them (it has been suggested but it won't be me doing it!) so this is nearly complete now. Got too many other things to do, been playing around with railway fencing the last few days, that's another story!

Ralph

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:53 pm

Rob has been busy with the shops, coming on well.

Shops painted.jpg

hollybeau
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby hollybeau » Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:46 pm

Hello,

Sorry to ask everyone to go back a page but I have only just discovered (and am enjoying reading) this thread. My query relates to the use of fibreglass rod to join the split axles as seen in the photo at the bottom of page 1 and my question is, "did this work, in terms of both strength and being electrically inert?" I ask because many years ago I also thought I had the answer to a suitable middle for making split axles but found that the glass fibre rod I bought was electrically conductive. I don't know whether they all are or it is just some or whether I was just unlucky but I had to abandon the idea at that point. Since then I have used the plastic tube that comes attached to the cotton buds you can buy in supermarkets. See my article in Scalefour News No 208, pages 18-22.

Bryan

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:27 am

Hi Bryan,

You have been using carbon fibre rod which is conductive. Fibreglass rod is not and you need to be careful when picking what you order. It fooled me for a while, carbon fibre seemed to be more readily available than fibreglass but I did track it down. I will check where I got it from and post the details of that and the stainless tube on here for all so they can source it if they want. I did give some to Jeremy Suter who was also interested but I haven't chatted to him about it since but I guess if there was sufficient demand perhaps the stores might be able to stock it - I know I have got a few lifetimes supply in order I made for the minimum quantity.

I haven't put the wheels together yet as the club layout is in lockdown and I couldn't test the loco sufficiently well to prove the concept and so I got back to completing buildings. Nearly done on that so the 4F is coming back to the top of the pile.

I will respond later with details of the supplies.

Ralph

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby Paul Townsend » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:08 am

I have recently assembled a bunch of 1/8 " axles with tube and 2mm fibreglass and 2mm axles with 1mm FG.
It seemed a good idea.
I dont find there is sufficient strength even in the 1/8" to with stand the twisting and pressing stresses of wheel mounting. They bend and snap!

I will have to remake the axles with hard steel core and the increased mess of cotton in araldite to minimise risk of shorting.

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:58 pm

Hi Paul,

I used my wheel mounting jig to mount a stub axle to the wheel first. It was done overlength making it easy to position and then the stub was shortened to the right length. This produces 2 stub axle mounted wheels which then need gluing together with epoxy. This makes for a really stiff axle given the strength of 2.5mm fibreglass rod for a 1/8th axle - there is no way you can bend this 2.5mm rod. The last photo of my post on 5 August shows the rod set into the tube before being shortened.

The source of my materials is:

2mm axles

SST2010D Stainless tube 2.0mm OD x 1.0mm ID - Eileens Emporium - 250mm length £6.60
1mm dia glassfibre rod - Ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-Fibreglass-stems-1mm-dia-20cm-long-x30-pole-float-making/274231988320

1/8th axles

1/8th stainless tube 0.010" wall - Ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221654922519 - 400mm £3.48
2.5mm glassfibre rod - bought from Ebay seller Gadgetskingdom but currently not listed. Common item used in the kite flying industry so should be available elsewhere. Bought 5 lengths of 500mm for £4.04.

Fibreglass rod is used both for fishing floats and for making kites but as mentioned before be careful you don't get carbon fibre by mistake.

Ralph

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:35 pm

Glass fibre rod 2.5mm available from here:

https://www.carbonfibreprofiles.com/ind ... Path=4_102
Mark Tatlow

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:31 pm

Since last posting I have been doing some work on fencing for Slattocks. The Timepix website http://www.timepix.uk has a huge number of photos of the local area and by spending some time browsing and studying things in the photos I have found there are some consistencies to the fencing surrounding the railway boundary.

Using these photos on the Timepix website https://www.timepix.uk/Collection-galleries/OS-Revision-Points-in-Greater-Manchester/1940s-1950s-Middleton-Oldham-and-Rochdale/Oldham-northwest-Royton-and-Chadderton/i-crCd7Wx/A https://www.timepix.uk/Collection-galleries/OS-Revision-Points-in-Greater-Manchester/1940s-1950s-Manchester-and-Stockport/Manchester-southeast/i-SzmQPdf/A I was able to draw up some panels for fences.

The fence panels were engraved and cut on the laser cutter and then painted and weathered.

20201206_133025.jpg


The panels with gaps in were a little more awkward to make up but it is possible on the laser.

20201206_133110.jpg


I also made up some more typical lineside fencing and tried setting up a section on a sample scenic portion. I need to either shield the fencing when applying the static grass or put in the fencing afterwards but you only learn by trying things out.

20201212_144544.jpg


20201207_150401.jpg


Ralph

Edited to correct URL

Tony W
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby Tony W » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:51 pm

Looking really good Ralph, well done.

Tony

ralphrobertson
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Re: Ralph's workbench

Postby ralphrobertson » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:54 pm

In the meantime I have started work on the weighbridge office. On the Timepix website I came across a photo of what to me looks like an L&Y weighbridge office at Hollinwood. https://www.timepix.uk/Collection-galleries/OS-Revision-Points-in-Greater-Manchester/1940s-1950s-Middleton-Oldham-and-Rochdale/Failsworth/i-35D5hv9/A Although it is called a oil shed in the photo it is the same as a weighbridge office and Martin Neild produced a very informative article on weighbridge huts in the LYRS magazine no 259 which I was able to get access to.

The Hollinwood building corresponds to the photo in that article showing the hut at Middleton Junction which is a stone's throw from Slattocks and decided to base our model on that style of office. From the photo on the Timepix website it was possible to count the bricks and work out the rough size of the hut. Correspondence with Martin Neild produced a copy of the photo for the Middleton Jnc office which helped a lot, thanks Martin.

9779 Middleton Junction Weighbridge Office.jpg


A drawing was produced for the walls using my standard technique for this type of small building. The walls will be made from 1.5mm mounting board with a 0.2mm card overlay for the brickwork. Here is a picture showing the basic components for the shell.

20201228_123619.jpg


The next shot is of the internal walls which contain the window frames.

20201228_124158.jpg


These are all simply glued together using PVA glue and held in place with elastic bands whilst it all sets.

20201228_154242.jpg


The next job is to get the brickwork engraved and cut out on the laser.

Ralph


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