Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

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barrowroad
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Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby barrowroad » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:29 pm

To the north of Bristol Barrow Road shed and Lawrence Hill Junction there is an incline on an 1 in 60 gradient to Fishponds Station in the NE of Bristol. The gradient starts at 1 in 89 immediately under Barrow Road Arches, which is the road which bisects the shed yard. The working timetable limits the number of wagons descending this incline to 30. With this in mind I have just finished converting 15 Bachmann 16T minerals to P4.

This photo shows a completed wagon fitted with P4 wheels. It is one in the rake of wagons in the video.
IMG_20190601_103037835 (1024x768).jpg

The principal tool used for conversion is the Knowle Wagon Works - 2mm Brass Bearing Tool.

In this photo the tool is bottom left.

First remove the 00 wheel sets followed by the couplings.

Then remove the body by unscrewing the two self tappers on the underside.

The photo shows the selection of tools and items used for the conversion. Shown are four flangeless bearings, two 26mm pin point axles plus a back to back gauge, file tweezers and a chisel knife.

The Brassmasters gauge at the bottom is to ensure the axles are square and level.
IMG_20190601_105559873 (768x1024).jpg

The first task is to remove the two ribs at the back of the W Iron using the chisel knife. You will also need to remove plastic below the ribs in order to gain width for the replacement P4 wheel sets.

Next drill out the holes in the rear of the wagon W irons. This task is done using the Knowle tool. You will need to measure the width and depth of the bearings you are using and set the drill in the tool using the grub screws and the allen key.

This photo shows the rear of the W Iron after the plastic has been cut away. It also shows a new bearing fitted after drilling.
IMG_20190601_105716136_BURST000_COVER (768x1024).jpg

The Knowle Tool in position for cutting deeper bearing holes in the W Iron. The tool can be turned using fingers, a tweezer or an 8mm spanner.
Once all four holes have been drilled out insert the new bearings and hold in position using the two 26mm pin point axles.

If you have the depth correct the W Irons should be parallel and vertical. Use the Brassmasters gauge to set the axles ensuring they are square and parallel.
IMG_20190601_105911066 (768x1024).jpg

IMG_20190601_105940310 (1024x768).jpg


Once satisfied use a dab of Butanone to fix the bearings in place.

Refix the body to the chassis and fit the P4 wheels after checking the back to back using the gauge. You may need to file some material off the brake shoes to gain clearance.
IMG_20190601_123220079 (1024x768).jpg


Do they work? Watch the video and see for yourself.
https://youtu.be/oUMnIFhPAL8

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steamraiser
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby steamraiser » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:00 pm

Have you tried propelling them?

Gordon A

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Noel
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby Noel » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:38 pm

I don't have any Bachmann conversions, as I have plenty of 16T mineral kits unbuilt; however, I have done other r-t-r conversions using the existing chassis. I don't bother with fitting brass bearings, on the basis that the chassis are designed to have metal pin point axles running in the plastic bearings, so why should an axle change affect this? It doesn't seem to, all other factors [squareness, axles rotating satisfactorily, etc, etc] being equal.

Incidentally, the wagon body is now the wrong way round. Until the rebodying programme of the late 1960s onwards all 16T minerals with Morton brake had the Morton clutch on the nearer side when the door is at the LH end.

I reckon yours run better than he same number of full size empty minerals did, though!
Regards
Noel

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:21 am

steamraiser wrote:Have you tried propelling them?

Gordon A


And what is your finished weight?

Enigma
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby Enigma » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:51 pm

I've just finished track laying and wiring my new 'Enigma' replacement which, typically of me, flies in the face of perceived P4 wisdom. When testing wagons, the best running by far is an old Mainline tank wagon with straightforward replacement P4 wheels. No bearings, no compensation, no springs. As Noel says, why bother fitting brass bearings when the original Mainline, Bachmann wheels etc. are on steel axles and designed to run for miles. I'm using this wagon to assist in fettling the track so that the compensated etc. stock runs better!

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barhamd
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby barhamd » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:06 pm

The only thing I've found when rewheeling Bachmann wagons is that sometimes the axles provided with P4 wheels from Gibson are a little shorter and have a different pin-point angle than the original axles. This can lead to a rather sloppy fit, In most cases I just pull the OO wheels of Bachmann's axle and refit P4 wheels to it.

David

Dave Franks
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby Dave Franks » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:51 pm

I've done a lot of Bachmann minerals with new wheelsets and found that in a short time the much sharper axle ends on the Gibson wheels cut a groove in the plastic, this has also happened to rewheeled mk1 coach bogies so now I've fitted all Bachmann conversions with Markits brass bearings, apart from anything else it makes things much more free running to the point that the haulage record on Wharfeside stands at over thirty coaches with a Bachmann Jubilee which aren't usually noted for their haulage capacity. The freight haulage record which was 117 wagons and that was only because that's all that was on the layout at the time, a DJH 8F with CSB did the hauling and could easily have taken more.

Dave Franks.

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Noel
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby Noel » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:05 pm

Dave Franks wrote:I've done a lot of Bachmann minerals with new wheelsets and found that in a short time the much sharper axle ends on the Gibson wheels cut a groove in the plastic


I presume this is after removing and reinstalling wheel sets? If so, doing this enough to significantly damage the plastic is likely to cause problems with the wheelsets as well. In any event, gently blunting the points of the axles will not adversely affect the running, in my experience; this also works for axles which are tight in the bearings.
Regards
Noel

Dave Franks
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby Dave Franks » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:56 pm

Noel wrote:
Dave Franks wrote:I've done a lot of Bachmann minerals with new wheelsets and found that in a short time the much sharper axle ends on the Gibson wheels cut a groove in the plastic


I presume this is after removing and reinstalling wheel sets? If so, doing this enough to significantly damage the plastic is likely to cause problems with the wheelsets as well. In any event, gently blunting the points of the axles will not adversely affect the running, in my experience; this also works for axles which are tight in the bearings.


No, this one change of wheels, Bachmann wheels out, carve some plastic away new Gibsons in with a touch of Carrs white grease and the sharp axle ends still cuts a groove in the plastic with significant running so nowadays it's out with the wheels and using the bearing drill tool fit the brass bearings, tiny dod of said grease and in with the new wheelsets, job done.

Dave.

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steamraiser
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby steamraiser » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:51 pm

Dave,

1) Do you add any weight to the wagons?

2) How do they behave when propelled?

3) Any other mods?

Gordon A

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barrowroad
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby barrowroad » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:17 pm

Gordon,
In the storage sidings the rake of 30 propel fine on the straight but two wagons derailed on the B7 crossover onto the main line. In their defence 10 wagons had already successfully negotiated it and moved onto the curved end boards. I'm not too concerned as I do not envisage reversing wagons in the storage sidings on a regular basis as there is no need to do so. The only reversing of coal wagons will be into the shed coal plant siding which holds between 15 and 18 wagons. I've yet to try this but I'll let you know the result.
Paul,
The target weight of my unloaded Bachmann 16T wagons is 22/23g. I have now made removable loads of coal for all the wagons which weigh 10/11g so the finished weight is between 32g and 34g. My Bachmann 4F will just cope with the 1000g train on the gradients and curves on my layout.
Noel,
Thanks for pointing out my error in remounting the body on the chassis. I must admit I hadn't realised there was a right and wrong orientation. Needless to say out of the 15 converted I got 5 wrong - better than all 15. All are now corrected.

Robin

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:34 am

barrowroad wrote:Paul,
The target weight of my unloaded Bachmann 16T wagons is 22/23g. I have now made removable loads of coal for all the wagons which weigh 10/11g so the finished weight is between 32g and 34g. My Bachmann 4F will just cope with the 1000g train on the gradients and curves on my layout.
Robin

Interesting choice of weight.
16T minerals are far too modern for me so I don't have any. I guess the length over solebar will be at least 16ft.
The old P4 formula of 1.8gram/ft length gives a minimum weight of 29gm for a 16ft wagon.
That implies you would expect trouble propelling yours empty which hopefully you don't need to do.
Your loaded weight implies they should all be OK propelled, but a little more weight up to say 50gm (as many have recommended these days) may help the two naughty ones......but then you would probably need to increase them all and gradient/slippage becomes increasingly likely.

I know this is about sucking eggs for you who have been around P4 at least as long as me, but I thought the comments may be of use to less experienced readers.

davebradwell
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby davebradwell » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:00 am

Paul, I'm fascinated by your magic formula for wagon weight which I've never seen before - was it in a very early issue of the standards or have I just missed it? The NMRA always specified their vehicle weights in this way but they had an initial constant. They recommend 1 oz + 1.2 oz per inch for an H0 wagon for example. Have we missed something? Certainly long 4w vehicles need more weight than short ones.

Dave, might part of your wear might be down to using grease in a plastic/metal bearing? Certainly grease is unnecessary with bearing plastics like Acetal Resins (Delrin) and some of the nylons will run dry. My idea is that greases tend to pick up dust which will be abrasive and the Bachmann plastic may be more susceptible than the above. I never lubricate the plastic/metal gear pairs in High Level gearboxes, for example. Anyway, the brass bearings certainly run better than Bachmann plastic.

DaveB

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steamraiser
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby steamraiser » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:57 pm

Thanks for your reply Robin.

Gordon A

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barrowroad
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby barrowroad » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:41 pm

Paul, Wagons on my earlier layout Sheep Pasture were all 50g using a 25g per axle formula. This weight per wagon proved too heavy on my current layout hence my decision to lower the weight of my wagons to enable trains of 30 wagons to be run.
Your 1.8g per foot formula is interesting but not one I have seen before.

Robin

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:04 pm

davebradwell wrote:Paul, I'm fascinated by your magic formula for wagon weight which I've never seen before - was it in a very early issue of the standards or have I just missed it?
DaveB


It predates Scalefour Society but was the recommendation of its predecessor, The Protofour Society which is where I started before around 1975 and before the inter society strife and shenanigans of the 1980s. My time line is slightly vague after all those Anno Dominii !

I don't recall exactly where/when it was published but could find it if necessary.

It has worked for me mostly but if anything I tend to prefer a bit heavier with AJs and 4ft radii, especially if buffer faces have not been filed flat. ISTR it was +/- 20%. I am happy with +20% but don't fancy the lower tolerance.

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barrowroad
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby barrowroad » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:35 am

Gordon, Here is a video of 14 wagons being propelled into the Coaling Plant storage siding at the shed. As you can see it crosses a turnout and double slip without any problem. The fact that the track from the signal box turnout to the end of the cork is on a downward gradient might help!



Robin

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steamraiser
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby steamraiser » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:45 pm

Thanks Robin, I enjoyed watching that move.
Impressed.

Gordon A

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Uncompensated 16T Bachmann Minerals in P4

Postby Paul Townsend » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:51 pm

Pretty good!
Of course, deploying a shaky cameraman is cheating since it hides any bumpiness of the stock :P


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