First steps in P4- now on my second loco

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pete_mcfarlane
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Tue May 05, 2020 9:47 pm

The Judith Edge Kitson was stalled for a long time, but the extra free time we've now got has brought it to the top of the pile of unfinished projects. And progress has been pretty rapid - I'd struggled a bit with the motor torque reaction arm, but managed to create a new setup in an hour or so. It's a bit of scrap etc soldered vertically, with a wire arm extending off the gearbox.
20200505_222732.jpg

The 20 thou plasticard spacers are to pack the body up a little - it was sitting slightly too low, which caused problems with the wheels shorting on the splashers. That and filling the front of the boiler with lead (to stop the loco being rear heavy, and derailing on curves when running forward) seem to have fixed the running issues. 
20200505_222046.jpg
20200504_205804.jpg

Next steps are to add the pipework and various other bits of detailing. But I'm on the homeward straight now.
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Paul Willis
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Paul Willis » Wed May 06, 2020 5:21 am

pete_mcfarlane wrote:The Judith Edge Kitson was stalled for a long time, but the extra free time we've now got has brought it to the top of the pile of unfinished projects.

The 20 thou plasticard spacers are to pack the body up a little - it was sitting slightly too low, which caused problems with the wheels shorting on the splashers. That and filling the front of the boiler with lead (to stop the loco being rear heavy, and derailing on curves when running forward) seem to have fixed the running issues. 
20200505_222046.jpg20200504_205804.jpg
Next steps are to add the pipework and various other bits of detailing. But I'm on the homeward straight now.


Pete,

That's a downright handsome locomotive. It looks very purposeful.

If the ride height is too low, it's a separate problem. But if you need to just stop shorting, use a Rizla, soaked in superglue like this:

Rizla insulation 1.JPG


It's robust enough to survive occasional contact with wheels, and doesn't add anything significant to the thickness of the parts.

Cheers
Flymo
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Daddyman
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Daddyman » Wed May 06, 2020 8:49 am

Looking good, Pete. Let me know if you need any photos of the preserved one for the injector pipework and the sanding gear. I have loads of detailed shots.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed May 06, 2020 1:11 pm

Hi Pete, :)
Definitely a characterful locomotive and good to see the progress Pete. I have also been finishing locos lately as probably half of the membership at least given the circumstances.

Flymo's suggestion came at just the right time for me as it has just resolved a problem I had of a short occurring between the gearbox sides and the internal pickups on a J94 I am finishing at the moment.

Which is all good.

Allan :thumb

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Paul Willis
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Paul Willis » Wed May 06, 2020 8:56 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote: Flymo's suggestion came at just the right time for me as it has just resolved a problem I had of a short occurring between the gearbox sides and the internal pickups on a J94 I am finishing at the moment.

Which is all good.

Allan :thumb


Allan,

Ironically, the other picture I have to demonstrate the technique is exactly that - insulating the sides of a High Level gearbox, to make sure they don't short out on the inside of the body when the suspension is active...

Rizla insulation 2.JPG


I thought, nah, no one will be interested in me posting a picture of a gearbox!

Cheers
Flymo
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pete_mcfarlane
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Wed May 06, 2020 9:50 pm

Flymo748 wrote: But if you need to just stop shorting, use a Rizla, soaked in superglue like this:

Rizla insulation 1.JPG

It's robust enough to survive occasional contact with wheels, and doesn't add anything significant to the thickness of the parts.

Cheers
Flymo

Now that is a very useful trick, which I'll file away for later use.

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pete_mcfarlane
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Wed May 06, 2020 9:54 pm

Daddyman wrote:Looking good, Pete. Let me know if you need any photos of the preserved one for the injector pipework and the sanding gear. I have loads of detailed shots.

Thanks - I'm sure we've had this conservation before (possibly on Rmweb) as I've got some of your photos of the loco running plate and chassis. But any photos you have of the injector runs on the preserved loco would be gratefully received. I think I've worked out how the sanding gear control rods operate, so the injectors are the next job after that.

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Will L
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Will L » Thu May 07, 2020 10:53 am

Flymo748 wrote:... insulating the sides of a High Level gearbox, to make sure they don't short out on the inside of the body when the suspension is active...

Sorry Paul but I may be being thick here but I'm not understanding the circumstance in which you would need to insulate the sides of you gearbox, and then not have the same problem with metal can on the motor itself?

I recognise the J65 driving wheels though, the balance weights are quite distinctive. Which way does the motor go, back towards the cab or forward into the smoke box?

Pete, sorry about off topic post. So must say i do like the loco!!

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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Daddyman » Thu May 07, 2020 2:45 pm

Here you go!
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu May 07, 2020 4:04 pm

Hi Pete and Flymo, :)

Just going to delete my two posts to allow for a better flow as Dave suggests below. Would hate to be a distraction.

Allan :)
Last edited by Allan Goodwillie on Fri May 08, 2020 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu May 07, 2020 4:29 pm

I have deleted this post as well Dave :thumb - as you say Flymo has it covered and it was unnecessary to add more here.
Allan :)
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pete_mcfarlane
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Thu May 07, 2020 7:10 pm

Daddyman wrote:Here you go!

Thanks, those are incredibly useful!

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pete_mcfarlane
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Thu May 07, 2020 7:25 pm

And I now realise that the 'bunkers' in front of the cab have sandboxes in them, rather than coal. The coal capacity must be tiny on these locos.

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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Daddyman » Fri May 08, 2020 6:41 am

pete_mcfarlane wrote:And I now realise that the 'bunkers' in front of the cab have sandboxes in them, rather than coal. The coal capacity must be tiny on these locos.


Yes, and the kit does rather throw its hands up when it comes to the sandbox fillers and injectors. Mine has been stalled for a year or so while I try to work out how to do those lids....

Re coal capacity, the "bunker" on these locos is the cab floor! Most photos you see of the locos show the cab aperture on the LHS blocked up with wood, to allow coal to be stored on the floor. It's still the case with the preserved one. And in the later lives of the Derwent Valley locos, what you would think of as the bunker was actually filled with radio equipment on one side, which is why you often see them with an aperture cut in the bunker:
https://railphotoprints.uk/p445878671/h ... #h51e3e959

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Paul Willis
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Paul Willis » Fri May 08, 2020 7:30 am

Will L wrote:
Flymo748 wrote:... insulating the sides of a High Level gearbox, to make sure they don't short out on the inside of the body when the suspension is active...

Sorry Paul but I may be being thick here but I'm not understanding the circumstance in which you would need to insulate the sides of you gearbox, and then not have the same problem with metal can on the motor itself?


The slightly sarcastic answer would be that the motor is actually narrower than the gearbox, by a millimetre or two ;-)

IMG_2935.JPG


In truth, I'd call it a precautionary move more than anything. As this is the first go at a split frame chassis, and one with CSBs as well, then I wanted to be absolutely sure that I didn't have any inadvertent shorting when the motor/gearbox was installed and nestling down between the frames.

I'm sure you'll have experienced one of those intermittent running problems at some point which is an absolute nightmare to diagnose - you know the type: the loco only stops when running through a left hand B6 turnout, in reverse, which three wagons attached but not four or two... So I thought I'd remove one possible factor at the design stage.

Will L wrote:I recognise the J65 driving wheels though, the balance weights are quite distinctive. Which way does the motor go, back towards the cab or forward into the smoke box?


Towards the smokebox and tilting upwards (not at the angle shown below though, that was just to illustrate the chip fitting location), with the DCC chip and the end of the motor just fitting up into it. The whole thing sits quite low down in the chassis.

IMG_2933.JPG


IMG_3006.JPG


I must find time to post some more pictures of the build sequence on my workbench, just to finish the story off...

Cheers
Flymo
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davebradwell
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby davebradwell » Fri May 08, 2020 8:46 am

Can I appeal for a restoration of the original thread, please. I have one of these kits to build and was enjoying watching how well it fitted together when suddenly it's become 1001 uses for fag paper and I can't understand why it should be there, either, so -

A simple question that would clarify things: is the Consett loco built with split frames? I have not found any reference to this but may have missed it.

DaveB

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pete_mcfarlane
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Fri May 08, 2020 3:27 pm

davebradwell wrote:A simple question that would clarify things: is the Consett loco built with split frames? I have not found any reference to this but may have missed it.

No, it's fitted with conventional pickups. I suspect that using split frames might make things easier, as the pickups were a bit of a pain to set up (as the brake pull rods end up in the way) but I've yet to build a loco chassis that sophisticated.

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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby davebradwell » Fri May 08, 2020 7:52 pm

Thank you, that helps greatly but it's still puzzling. Surely if you have ordinary pick-ups (perhaps arranged as on your last loco) then only the wheel rims and pick-ups themselves are live so there's no danger of shorting to the motor anyway.

It might be a red herring, of course, in which case the whole thing has become like Python's Arthur (2 sheds) Jackson.

My own view is that the split frame system provides excellent pick-up but complicates everything else which is why I wondered if that was why you needed the fag paper. One small concern: can the driven axle rock a little? This action moves the motor sideways - is your gearbox restraining loop wide enough and is there sufficient clearance in the body which is why the fag paper raised concerns? Anyway the build seems to have gone well. Just a case of conscience v Mr Addyman's sandbox lids.

DaveB

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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Paulhb » Fri May 08, 2020 8:20 pm

I hope you don’t mind me showing my A Class.

I did diverge from the instructions several times to suit my own peculiarities!

1 - I couldn’t see how I could fit the recommended motor/gearbox into the boiler without removing part of the boiler bottom. I therefore used a smaller motor and a High Lever Roadrunner Compact + gearbox which meant the motor would sit vertically in the firebox.

2 - I find it easier to fit the wheels to axles without the chassis getting in the way and be able to drop them out of the chassis if required. The compensation method utilising swinging arms doesn’t allow this so I fitted High Level hornguides. The supplied compensation beams were altered to rest on the axles and the brakes made to clip into 0.7ODx0.5ID brass tubes soldered to the frames.

3 - I made the cab roof removable.

Many thanks to Daddyman for the photos of the injector pipework, must admit I was having difficulty working it out as the instructions gave no clues.

Paul Bannerman


432D1DD7-CBF0-4625-84E4-26846D6330C7.jpeg
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pete_mcfarlane
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Fri May 08, 2020 9:30 pm

davebradwell wrote:Thank you, that helps greatly but it's still puzzling. Surely if you have ordinary pick-ups (perhaps arranged as on your last loco) then only the wheel rims and pick-ups themselves are live so there's no danger of shorting to the motor anyway.

It might be a red herring, of course, in which case the whole thing has become like Python's Arthur (2 sheds) Jackson.
DaveB


There's about 0.25mm clearance between each wheel face and the inside faces of the splashers. Having thought about it, the track on my test track is (deliberately) a bit uneven, so I'm wondering if I had opposite wheel faces touching the splashers at the same time. I'll try the fag paper trick on them to avoid any further chances of shorting.

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pete_mcfarlane
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Fri May 08, 2020 9:31 pm

Paulhb wrote:I hope you don’t mind me showing my A Class.

That's rather nice.

Daddyman
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Daddyman » Sat May 09, 2020 6:18 am

Paulhb wrote: Many thanks to Daddyman for the photos of the injector pipework, must admit I was having difficulty working it out as the instructions gave no clues.


That's looking nice. I'm glad the photos will help.

Does anyone actually have photos of a loco with sandboxes in the style supplied in the kit? I've never seen any, and replaced mine with some scratchbuilt in metal.

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pete_mcfarlane
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Sat May 09, 2020 9:34 pm

Over the last couple of days I've filled in the rear sandbox openings (which aren't coal bunkers) and added the rodding to the front sandboxes. The runners it passes through are short lengths of 1mm diameter tubing, soldered in place and then filed square. The pull arms at the front were made the slivers of scratch etc and were a right pain to drill - I managed to break three 0.4mm drill bits in the process of making them.

Looking at the photo alerted me to the odd bit of wonkiness in the rods, which has been sorted.
20200509_221910.jpg
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charliemiller77
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby charliemiller77 » Sat May 09, 2020 11:20 pm

Hi all. Peter and I have been sharing notes about this loco for a few weeks now. It’s a tricky one. I have also built my own sandboxes as the kit ones just seem too small yet bulky if that makes sense. I’ll send photos once mine are attached.
Plenty of good images in Railway Byelines vol 9 issue 11 Oct 2004 and vol 20 issue 4 March 2015. Charlie
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Daddyman
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Re: First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Daddyman » Sun May 10, 2020 6:57 am

Useful references, Charlie, thanks.

I see you have modelled the tank balance pipes too (there were two styles). Like you, I've put the motor in a boiler-shaped saddle; but only reaches halfway along the boiler - just up to the midway tank support.

I've been looking at the marvellous things Geoff Kent does in plasticard on his wagons, and feel it wouldn't be impossible to make a plasticard master for the sandbox fillers, which could then be cast in resin. I may have a go today...


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