Stock for Cadhay

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CDGFife
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Stock for Cadhay

Postby CDGFife » Tue May 10, 2016 2:13 pm

I've not posted on the Cadhay thread for a little while, mainly as there's not been a great deal of layout progress of late, but I have been busy. I've spent a good amount of time and had some excellent help from Chris McCarthy and friends researching carriage types for the Sidmouth branch 1930/32. Next stage is a couple of Roxey kits for my birthday and on we go!

Also I've been building wagons. Wagon aficionados may want to look away now, but I've taken the pragmatic decision that, in order to get a good level of stock so I can run Cadhays' operating schedule, I'm going to just build the various wagon kits as is - i.e. no suspension/compensation and no beautiful underframe details etc. This is purely a time related decision and may well eventually get reversed (it almost did looking at the Rumney stand at S4N!) , but in the meantime here's a couple of snaps of the work so far. A Cambrian brakevan (would have been very new in 1930!!) and a rake of Parkside kits. They are almost ready for weathering, bar a couple of handrails and some couplings, although the brakevan, being very new will only get a light dose of road grime.

CSM16-5-1.jpg

CSM16-5-2.jpg


Also I've been busy designing the new frames/chassis for the M7, which I will scratch build. There's a 3d CAD drawing on it's way but it's not quite where I want it to be yet so when it is I'll post it here for comment. The intention then is to post Cadhay stock progress here rather than on the layout thread.

Cheers

Chris

David Knight
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby David Knight » Tue May 10, 2016 8:42 pm

Chris,

Heresy to say this perhaps, but you'll find that a well built, squarely assembled wagon with adequate weight on board will cope with most minor track irregularities with no problem. This is not to say that the work done by Ian and Bill with their underframes is not appreciated, it is just a matter of a limited number of hours in a day and other demands on our time. Nice work! :thumb :thumb

Cheers,

David

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jim s-w
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby jim s-w » Wed May 11, 2016 9:48 am

Works for me David :D

Jim

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CDGFife
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby CDGFife » Thu May 12, 2016 5:18 pm

When I first built the trackwork for Cadhay, I had no rolling stock at all, so I re-wheeled a very light hornby wagon and have used this as a "snagging wagon" run through at high speed to first test any track I've built. This made me very quickly realise that (in spite of the dire consequences you sometimes read about), as David & Jim say, an un-sprung wagon will run quite happily. It also helps highlight where my track is in need of adjustment.

All the pictured wagons have been run through Cadhays' track to test them before they were painted. I have added lead weighting under the floor to get them a bit heavier.

Cheers

Chris

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CDGFife
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby CDGFife » Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:19 pm

Well it's been a while since I posted much on here. Sadly this is mainly due to losing my Mum in July. I've only just really got back into the swing of regular modelling so not too much to report despite the long lay-off. However the one thing that has moved is the M7. In the end a Perseverance chassis kit became available so I've used it (slightly adapted) instead of the scratch build. Lots of help from Allan Goodwillie and the starters group (the threads are in the starting P4 section) has so far resulted in the following:

CSM16-10-1.jpg


The rear sandbox and injector has been scratch built and lots of fudging has been required to get it to fit the Hornby body, but it stays on the Cadhay track nicely when run by hand power (pickups still to be added). Next step a good clean and then paint, followed by pickups and a bit of body detailing.

After this there's a SE Finecast G6 body requiring building and a chassis, and a pair of Southwark Bridge Models carriage kits to build. Hopefully more progress to follow a bit more frequently going forward!

Cheers

CDG

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CDGFife
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby CDGFife » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:38 pm

A bit of progress on the stock side to report of late:

CSM16-11-1.jpg
First of the Southwark Bridge Coach kits approaching readyness for paint. Interior, Roof detailling and undercarriage still to go.

CSM16-11-2.jpg
Not fixed but body posed on chassis hence the wonky stance! Runs nicely though

CSM16-11-5.jpg
Next batch of wagons ready to earn revenue

CSM16-11-3.jpg
Blandford of Dursley not strictly legit for Sidmouth branch but my brother and family live there so I couldn't resist.

CSM16-11-4.jpg
Couple of ex LSWR Brake/road vans - SR diags 1541 and 1545


The wagons are all Parkside kits, whilst the Road Vans are from Smallbrook Studios. I've also got another Bachman SR Van converted and a Parkside MinkA 10 T van painted but not decal-ed, so things are moving nicely on the stock front. Whole lot still needs weathering.

The M7 (above post) did run briefly but needed a little adjustment of the Crankpins. Unfortunately whilst dropping the motor axle from the frames to do this, I managed to mislay to the GCG one of the tiny carbon(?) connector cylinders from inside the motor. Replacements will soon arrive from Chris Gibbon but until they do the M7 is out of ticket! ON the plus side the chassis looks much better painted!

Cheers

Chris

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CDGFife
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby CDGFife » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:58 pm

So after Glasgow's running issues I want to turn the negative into a positive and start tackling the performance of the wagons. With the help of some of my East of Scotland colleagues I've come up with the following plan:

1. Set up an MS Access database of all the Wagon numbers to incorporate logging and tracking of faults (e.g. each derailment) and logging of any work done
2. Add lead floors to all wagons to get additional weight into them.
3. Check each wagon for the following:

a. Wheelset Back to Back; Check by Gravity BB Gauge; Pass is to P4 standards (aiming for mid point)
b. Flange thickness/dirt on the flanges; Check by Vernier measure/eyeball
c. Wheel to axle squareness (wheel wobble); Check by eyeball
d. Parallel-ness of axles; Check by Brassmasters Axle setting gauge; Pass is go/no go in the gauge
e. Parellel-ness of each axle to buffer beam; Check by Vernier or make a special gauge?: Pass is go/no go with special gauge or equal in measurement
f. Protrusion of Buffer heads from Buffer beam; Check by Morgan Buffer/AJ Gauge; Pass is equal touching of gauge and square
g. Squareness of buffer heads; Check by eyeball?
h. Buffer height above rail head; Check by Morgan Buffer/AJ Gauge; Pass is centre of buffer head in line with gauge points
i. Buffer lateral position; Check by Morgan Buffer/AJ Gauge; Pass is centre of buffer head in line with gauge points
j. AJ lateral position; Check by Morgan Buffer/AJ Gauge; Pass is AJ in line with jig points
k. Presence of AJ lateral stabiliser?; Check by Eyeball
l. AJ vertical position; Check by Morgan Buffer/AJ Gauge; Pass is AJ in line with jig
m. AJ protrusion from Buffer beam; Check by Morgan Buffer/AJ Gauge; Pass is AJ touching jig point
n. AJ dropping motion; Test with magnet; Pass is AJ must drop and tip must not lift at end of drop
o. AJ fold/shape quality; Check by eyeball/Turner jig
p. AJ burr on end; Check by couple/uncouple test
q. AJ dropper presence; Check by eyeball
r. Suspension presence; Check by eyeball
s. Suspension movement; Check by running 1 side fixed wheel over 1mm plasticard strip on flat plate (check for both sides); Pass is rocking wheels should stay in contact with plate.
t. Lateral "slop" of wheelset within bearings; Check by Visual check


4. Prepare some proper storage/transit boxes for the stock.

THe database has now been set up, so we can log every fault and track for patterns, and every wagon has been weighed. I was quite shocked at the variation with one or two of the inherited stuff as low as 19g. I'm now in the process of adding scribed lead floors to all of them - this is getting them to around 55-65g each. Once that is done we will start testing as per the above list and then move on to some operating testing on the layout.

Also some cases and neoprene padding have been ordered for the stock boxes.

I'd be interested in any comments folks have re this list as it is still quite fluid and I still need to define some pass criteria.

Also what do people think of fixed vs sprung buffers?

Finally the inherited wagons have all come with an AJ lateral guide - by this I mean a stirrup of wire from the pulled-end (i.e. AJ non fixed end) buffer beam that allows vertical movement and not much lateral movement. Be interested in peoples views on these.

Cheers All

CDG

Philip Hall
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:09 am

Looks a fairly formidable list! Just a few observations as requested...

Buffers: springing is nice but not essential on wagons, I get along quite nicely without. Depends on what I fancy doing when I build a wagon. It is essential on carriage stock if you want to run trains properly close coupled. I think Trevor Pott (Churston) wrote about slightly flattening the centre of the buffer faces, and this helps when propelling.
Alignment of wheelsets: the dodge of running a wagon along a flat board to see if it runs in a straight line will tell you if you have a problem, if so you can use the jig to adjust things.
Weight of vehicles: 50-65 grams sounds just fine. Too heavy much better than too light.
AJ couplings: my unhelpful observation here is that the length of your list of things to do just reinforces my view that they are delicate things too easily put out of adjustment. I wish you luck!

Philip

garethashenden
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby garethashenden » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:31 am

Allowing the AJs some horizontal movement lets them go through tighter curves. We had a class 52 that had short stiff couplings due to the nature of the bufferbeams. It regularly pulled wagons off curves because there wasn’t enough flexibility.
I find the original design works pretty well, you just need to protect them from end shocks in transportation.

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Dave K
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Dave K » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:11 am

CDGFife wrote:
h. Buffer height above rail head; Check by Morgan Buffer/AJ Gauge; [color=#00BF40]Pass is centre of buffer head in line with gauge points
CDG

I have a number of AJ jigs but I don’t seem to recognise is this one. What is it?

Julian Roberts
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:18 am

Chris this AJ jig came from the EMGS. I find it's easier to check the angles using this one.

I agree with Gareth just a couple of posts above about horizontal freedom. AJs require packaging so that the AJ is not being touched at all IMHO unless we don't mind spending half the exhibition re-adjusting them with the gauge attached, though that is easy enough.

For rocking suspension 1mm seems rather a lot?! There has been a discussion on the thread Flange thickness about wagon suspension.
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=5758
You will see I'm a bit of a purist. It would be interesting to know if you have any conclusions about what faults the wagons that did derail at the show had. To the extent you did have that problem, and I saw only one or two while I was watching, it is hardly unique to your layout!
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Flymo748
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:53 am

Dave K wrote:
CDGFife wrote:
h. Buffer height above rail head; Check by Morgan Buffer/AJ Gauge; Pass is centre of buffer head in line with gauge points
CDG

I have a number of AJ jigs but I don’t seem to recognise is this one. What is it?


Dave,

I suspect it is this one. A grand £5.50 from the Stores. Useful for checking buffer heights, and I have modified mine for the Sprat & Winkle couplings which I prefer.

AJHG.jpg
AJHG.jpg (94.86 KiB) Viewed 3979 times


The PDF file below won't display in a post, but shows the jig assembled and in use.

AJHG.pdf
(133.12 KiB) Downloaded 76 times


Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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CDGFife
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby CDGFife » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:24 am

Thanks Paul for beating me to a photo of the Morgan jig. I find it only has one drawback - I once spent over an hour on Cadhay looking for a short circuit. I even picked the jig up from the siding end where it was situated to check the track underneath it! Oh the words uttered when I finally realised it was of course the jig itself causing the short!

Thanks all for the comments so far.

I'm not persoanlly convinced on the sprung buffers on wagons. A lot of the innherited stock (which let's not forget had been sat for a long time in a loft) has needed a lot of work to free up the sprung buffers and even now quite regularly we get one "stuck in". I'm tempted to suggest just setting them and then gluing them in that position!

The list may be long but actually it should not take too long to check this detail out for each wagon. All the stock is either very new or very old and not been used for a long time so it should pay to sit down and get a comprehensive check done on each of them. I suspect I (and any of the EofS group I can bully into helping!) will get quite quick at it fairly sharpish.

Julian - 1mm was an arbitrary figure I pulled out of thin air - I'm open to reducing it as certainly the Cadhay track is not that bad!!!

Phillip - I'd overlooked the rolling wagon test (which is odd as I use it on the new built stuff aytomatically) - it could be added in to this list as a first test with the jig tests then used to help find the actual source problem.

I agree entirely about AJ protection in transit/storage. The case inserts I've designed (ok well briefly sketched so far) should see the AJ in thin air at all times.

Cheers All

Chris

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:06 am

Julian Roberts wrote:Chris this AJ jig came from the EMGS. I find it's easier to check the angles using this one.

I agree with Gareth just a couple of posts above about horizontal freedom. AJs require packaging so that the AJ is not being touched at all IMHO unless we don't mind spending half the exhibition re-adjusting them with the gauge attached, though that is easy enough.

For rocking suspension 1mm seems rather a lot?! There has been a discussion on the thread Flange thickness about wagon suspension.
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=5758
You will see I'm a bit of a purist. It would be interesting to know if you have any conclusions about what faults the wagons that did derail at the show had. To the extent you did have that problem, and I saw only one or two while I was watching, it is hardly unique to your layout!


Julian,

is that AJ jig a recent purchase from the EMGS? Their site doesn't have any photos to show what their AJ coupling jigs are (at least not showing on either of my two browsers).

The steel tool in the etched jig is of the design originally produced by a late member of the NLG, which is a AJ "making" aid and very useful. I already have one and would recommend it, if that is still available from the EMGS.

Jol

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CDGFife
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby CDGFife » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:20 pm

Julian/Jol - how does this jig work? I can see that the point on this end in the photo can be used to verify position of AJ relative to track, but you both mention it was an AJ making/adjusting aid - how does that work?

Chris

Lindsay G
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Lindsay G » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:28 pm

Chris,

Our group has one of these if you want to get up close and personal. It was with David O and possibly now with our current Hon Sec just up the road from you (if you're by-ways in the Kingdom have now been freed up).

Lindsay

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:47 pm

CDGFife wrote:Julian/Jol - how does this jig work? I can see that the point on this end in the photo can be used to verify position of AJ relative to track, but you both mention it was an AJ making/adjusting aid - how does that work?

Chris


Chris,

the jig has two holes. Push the AJ wire into the deeper one and fold to 90 degrees, then close up with pliers (that is the tricky bit), Push the bent end into the shorter hole and bend to align with the coned point to form the 30 degree angle of the AJ. I then tweak the tail to set it correctly (you have to judge the 45 degree bit). I don't know how it compares with the other AJ forming jigs available through the Society as I have never used one of those.

The other jig I find very useful is Graham Turner's AJ mounting jig.

Jol

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CDGFife
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby CDGFife » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:18 pm

Thanks Jol and Lindsay. I now understand.

This is similar to my homemade jig out of a piece of 3mm diam rod, cut to 40mm length and drilled either end to 5mm and 2.25mm depth. I also followed the Tony Williams version and filed a chamfer into the 5mm end to make the first bend well over 90 degrees which then helps the final bend down to 180 degrees.

I agree the Turner mounting jig is good. I have the bending ones on order with stores at present so when the post in snowy Fife gets back to actually being delivered I will be able to try them.

Cheers

Chris

Julian Roberts
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:20 pm

Hi Chris and Jol
I got that thing about four years ago. I just use it to check and verify. I contributed at the end of the Gentle Art of Couplings thread more about it. I have S4 Society jig for forming.

Yes I wonder if 0.5mm is adequate and more realistic for rocking arms?

Philip Hall
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:17 pm

Although not an AJ user, I came by one of those turned jigs in a bag of stuff a while back. I can’t remember where now, it might have been with a locomotive kit I bought which came with some other things gratis. I am sure it came in a packet marked ‘Martin’s Model Accessories’ and there were several reels of AJ coupling wire in with it. There was no etched mount though. So I think that marks it out as the jig produced by the late Martin Brent. Maybe the design passed to, or originated with, the NLG?

Chris, I might still have it, once I have sorted through all the boxes waiting to be put away in the workshop. PM me if you would like it.

Philip

allanferguson
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby allanferguson » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:59 pm

My Assembly Jig in the background attaches to the buffers with double sided tape, ensuring the right gap in front of the buffers, and leaving the hands free to hold something else. Also ensures the vertical positioning of the coupling from the underside of the buffer beam. I know that's not according to spec, but it works 99% of the time, and can easily be adjusted using the AJ checking jig which doesn't short circuit the rails, worthwhile particularly on DCC layouts.
DSCN0556.JPG

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:43 pm

Hi Chris,

Quite a lot of useful stuff here, I know I have contacted you by email, but one thing I missed out was to solder the upper folded back part of the coupling, so that it is impossible for one coupling to become entangled with another. This may happen quite often depending on your operators! When a locomotive stalls and is unreachable by the operator you might find the operator may give a tug on the train from the rear end. If the upper folds are not soldered then the loops will open up and one will be pulled into the other. The train will move off (possibly), but the couplings will not uncouple when the time comes to do so! The culprit being being blissfully unaware of his deeds and likely to complain about the inability of the wagons to uncouple.

This is one for the list. Cadhay looked great at Glasgow, unfortunately I had no time off to see it running due to having Scott's Road there and trying to answer a continuous barrage of questions. Dave enjoyed his time with you immensely. Thank you for having him as part of your team.

Allan :)

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Dave K
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Dave K » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:53 am

Flymo748 wrote:I suspect it is this one. A grand £5.50 from the Stores. Useful for checking buffer heights, and I have modified mine for the Sprat & Winkle couplings which I prefer.

Julian/Paul,
I do remember it, and may even have one from the Stores but did not remember it being called a “Morgen Buffer/AJ Gauge”.

CDGFife wrote:Thanks Paul for beating me to a photo of the Morgan jig. I find it only has one drawback - I once spent over an hour on Cadhay looking for a short circuit. I even picked the jig up from the siding end where it was situated to check the track underneath it! Oh the words uttered when I finally realised it was of course the jig itself causing the short!

Chris,
I found the Stenson Modles AJ alignment jig better to check my AJ couplings as it is plastic and therefore eliminates the shorting out problem if left on the track.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5542&p=55381&hilit=Stenson+models#p55381

I look forward to see Cadhay in the flesh, so to speak, at Scaleforum in September.

Dave

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CDGFife
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby CDGFife » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:45 pm

So been a while since I posted on this one and a lot done since! I didn't want to jinx the performance of the wagons at Scaleforum and have hence deliberately not reported on what we did to them after Glasgow as per the discussions above, but I'm happy to say we were quite pleased with how they performed at Aylesbury this weekend when compared against Glasgow last time out.

What I did was as follows:
I set up a database of all the rolling stock.Entered them all and weighed them.
This gave me their weights (around 19g avaerage for the wagons!!)
I added lead floors and some lead underneath so almost everything weighs a minimum of 50g and most above 60g.
We went through the above list of checks and adjusted to meet the tolerances.
I glued solid all the sprung buffers, positioning their heads using the Morgan AJ position jig.
Once we'd done this we noticed the improvements straightaway in lack of derailments BUT it also showed me 3 areas of track that required work on gauge and some vehicles that needed suspension added (I've built lots of short wheel base rigid stuff and tend to leave it rigid unless it is problematic). These had both been masked by the initial rate of derailments but were easy to spot after the intitial work because we kept logging the derailments into the database over the practice sessions and hence the patterns were visible.

The above has significantly improved the derailments and also helped the mis-couples/unplanned uncouples. However we were still getting an unacceptably high level of failure to couple up in the sidings.

Around 3 weeks before Scaleforum I fitted the electromagnetic uncoupling units to the sidings. This brought out another 2 problems - the existing stock I had inherited had been set up with very high upwards pressure on the AJ shank to keep it up at coupling datum, and my magnets could not overcome this to drop the coupling to uncouple. Also the few couplings I'd actually made by eye (and thought were ok) were also not satisfactory. I had suspected the latter and at Scalefour North had bought a full set of AJ jigs to rectify the matter, but the uncoupling failure of the existing wagons was a surprise and effectively meant re-coupling everything before the show!! So I set to.

I started by reading the AJ book from the Society, and also Chris Pendlenton's MRJ article. Then I got on with fabricating coplings 3 vehicles at a time, adjusting and testing them before moving onto the next 3. I found that they needed to be set up just "in balance" at the coupling datum above the track to drop reliably and they almost sing when you flick them down by hand. Most of the stock was done by this weekend but EVERY problem we had either in mis-coupling or failure to uncouple was down to old couplings still not replaced, so I'm pretty pleased.

What I did find is that consistency of the couping head, dropper (material, length, position) and set up is critical to the uncoupling particularly. So next action is to complete all the rolling stock and see how that goes. For info I've found that the pulling post idea espoused in Chris Ps article has worked well for me on Cadhay.

The final issue was how to transport the stock so they behaved as well on the road as they were in the practice sessions. To that end I bought some aluminium boxes which were neoprene lined. I've added neoprene/plywood trays to them to hold the stock vertical, but only with contact at the buffers and the AJ in free space. This has worked very well, with very little adjustment required on set up. I'll try and get some photos of them later.

Cheers all

CDG

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Stock for Cadhay

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:51 pm

Well done Chris, :)

Your layout seemed to perform well over the Weekend and I would like to thank yourself, Dave Goodwillie, David Orr and Phil Draper for their efforts on the workbench over the weekend as well. I was kept pretty busy myself over the weekend with there being a steady flow of questions. I must apologise to anyone who wanted to talk to me and found the stand too busy I will try to get in touch by email as there was no slight to anyone intended, we were just so busy. I had 20 minutes on Sunday morning, before the start, to go and have a look at the layouts and managed to squeeze them all in, and ten minutes taken off for my lunch each day, but no time for anything else I am afraid. Thanks to Terry and his team for making another interesting Scalefourum!

Allan :)


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