Manning Wardle wheels

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David Bigcheeseplant
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Manning Wardle wheels

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:52 pm

Image

I plan to build a RT Models Manning Wardle K class the wheels that need to be used are Gibson but these with a 1/8" axle and thick tyres look like roller skates, and my thoughts turned to how to make something a little finer.

I managed to get some Exactoscale three foot waggon wheel tyres and thought I would design and 3D print some wheel centres and use 2mm axles. The screen shot is about half an hours work of Autodesk inventor, I have no idea if this idea will work but will give it a try.

David

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Tim V
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby Tim V » Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:56 pm

Looks the part, have you printed a crankpin hole?
Tim V

Philip Hall
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:46 pm

Paul Berntsen produced some Manning Wardle wheels like this and I think they were available from Branchlines. I had them for, I think, a Class I (an Impetus kit) of which I had the very first one from Robin Arkinstall. However, interests changed away from light railways and I sold it on many years back.

The wheels were very fine, particularly the rims, and were intended for split axles. Maybe someone out there has some still. Otherwise I would think this is an interesting way to go, providing they are robust enough. I would jig-drill the crankpin holes, though, rather than rely on the printing process.

Philip

David Bigcheeseplant
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:27 pm

I have drawn the crankpin hole but can lose it before I print it, one thing I have just noticed is that the Gibson wheel has eight spokes while the real thing plus the wheel I have drawn has ten. It would be interesting to see the Branchline wheel if anyone still has them.

David

Philip Hall
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:55 pm

The Berntsen wheel was cast brass, nickel plated, had ten spokes and very thin tyres, which looked just like some of the pictures I had of K and I classes. There were Manning Wardles with eight spokes which until this was the only type available. I don't even think Sharman did them.

I can't imagine all the kits and the wheels have been used, so someone may have a set. I wonder whether Branchlines still deal with Paul Berntsen?

Philip

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Horsetan
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby Horsetan » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:26 pm

Branchlines still sell some cast brass wheels, but no longer have the Manning Wardle pattern.

It's make your own, basically. That's partly why I don't touch industrial engines, as correct wheels are hard to get.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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jim s-w
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby jim s-w » Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:24 am

Did the real thing have a 6 inch axle David?

David Bigcheeseplant
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:37 am

No idea Jim, although the Gibson 1/8 looks too big.

2mm allows the use of some of compact High Level gearboxes and hornblocks systems.

David Bigcheeseplant
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:48 pm

The first wheel print Alan at Modelu is adjusting the calibration of the printer so the diameter will be a good fit in the tyre.
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P1190801.jpg

dal-t
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby dal-t » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:47 am

Fascinating stuff - and only six days from first post to the things 'in the plastic'. Certainly bears out 'rapid prototyping'.
David L-T

David Bigcheeseplant
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:48 am

Well it's quicker than Ultrascale!

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Andy W
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby Andy W » Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:12 am

Very impressive David. Can you tell us what sort of cost is involved?
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David Bigcheeseplant
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:13 am

I have no idea of the total cost, the tyres I brought from C&L a few years back, I guess Pete at C&L will tell you if you ask. The Modelu printing is subject to a set up cost and minimum charge, but 3D material cost is about 18 pence per wheel I think I need to have 50 printed to get to the minimum order cost!

If Alan Gibson can also supply tyres on their own then it does open up the opportunity of filling the gaps of wheels that are not available.

Crepello
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby Crepello » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:30 am

David Bigcheeseplant wrote:If Alan Gibson can also supply tyres on their own then it does open up the opportunity of filling the gaps of wheels that are not available.

I asked the requisite question at Railex. The answer seemed to be a grudging "Yes, but only if you mention this conversation."

I guess the margins are so slim that any encouragement to DIY could be cutting the ground away from under the range of fully-finished items. Unfortunately for me, this financial logic makes me disproportionately pessimistic about the finescale end of my hobby.

Philip Hall
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:08 pm

There would also be a difference in tyre width. Exactoscale are (I think) a scale width of 1.85mm, but Alan Gibson (and Ultrascale, come to that) are the P4 recommended 2mm. For the MW wheel, the Exactoscale looks a great deal more delicate.

Philip

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:51 pm

the P4 recommended 2mm.

Where is that recommended Philip? The standard just says Tyre width 1.85 min, 2.00 max. There is a note that could perhaps be misinterpreted, which states that it is recommended not to exceed the 2mm max to avoid excess wheelset width. That is not a recommendation to aim for 2mm. For most prototype wheels the 1.85 is the more accurate, and helps with that tricky clearance behind slide bars.
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martin goodall
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby martin goodall » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:56 pm

I have always treated 2.00 mm as the standard (in fact the minimum) tyre width for P4.

I always felt that the width of the Exactoscale tyres (1.85 mm ?) was too narrow for practical use.

Let's face it, we're not trying to produce fantastically accurate replicas of the prototype; we're trying to produce toy trains that will actually work.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:47 pm

Tyres 1.85 mm wide work just fine if you have built the track to standard, any extra tyre width serves no purpose as it never touches the rail.
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Philip Hall
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:45 pm

I haven't actually looked at the standard for years, so apologies for getting it wrong! It does seem that most use the 2mm max width, but I agree that scale width would in many cases be better. I do have a need one day for some min width tyres, but I suspect I shall just slim down some Gibson ones.

Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:00 am

martin goodall wrote:I always felt that the width of the Exactoscale tyres (1.85 mm ?) was too narrow for practical use


You are of course perfectly entitled to hold that view and to state it but there are of course many people who have made wheels of this width work successfully.

martin goodall wrote:Let's face it, we're not trying to produce fantastically accurate replicas of the prototype; we're trying to produce toy trains that will actually work.


Well some people may work that way and if they do then that is their decision and hopefully they enjoy their model making. There are however quite a lot of people in this Society, in other specialist "fine scale" groups and those who are not members of any society who do try to produce models which are as accurate as they can make them and they do work. You will see some of them at Scaleforum in three weeks time. They also seem to enjoy it as well. :D

Terry Bendall

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jim s-w
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby jim s-w » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:50 pm

martin goodall wrote:I have always treated 2.00 mm as the standard (in fact the minimum) tyre width for P4.

I always felt that the width of the Exactoscale tyres (1.85 mm ?) was too narrow for practical use.

Let's face it, we're not trying to produce fantastically accurate replicas of the prototype; we're trying to produce toy trains that will actually work.


When you say we're I think you meant to put I'm :)

cheers

Jim

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:02 pm

Philip Hall wrote:I haven't actually looked at the standard for years, so apologies for getting it wrong! It does seem that most use the 2mm max width, but I agree that scale width would in many cases be better. i do have a need one day for some min width tyres, but I suspect I shall just slim down some Gibson ones.

Philip


That would be because AG do OO wheels which need to be wider to work, and they want to use the same centre mouldings for OO and P4, changing only the tires.

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jim s-w
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby jim s-w » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:15 pm

Not sure that's true guy. The very few EM gibsons I have (admittedly old) had different centres to p4 ones.

HTH

Jim

David Bigcheeseplant
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:04 pm

wheel3.JPG
wheel3.JPG (21.56 KiB) Viewed 4214 times


I have just received the first test print for checking and the photos don't really do the result justice, compared with the Gibson wheel which I will try and photo next to the printed version looks stunning and very delicate, as well as being very small.
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Wheel4.JPG
Wheel4.JPG (26.95 KiB) Viewed 4214 times

David Knight
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Re: Manning Wardle wheels

Postby David Knight » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:05 pm

David,

How does the printed material react to having an axle stuffed into it? Is there a certain amount of resilience?

Cheers,

David


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