Locating and Building Accurate Private Owner Wagons

[awebber]

Private owner wagons are an attractive and tempting addition to model railway layouts. For those of us who like to get the right wagons for our chosen location and time period some research can sometimes show us appropriate companies behind a locomotive or in yards, but rarely in enough detail to model accurately. Thereafter better photos have to be tracked down and the excellent Private Owner Wagons & Tankers Index compiled by Joe Greaves (https://lightmoor.co.uk/BDLpdf_files/Pr ... _Index.pdf) can get us started. But even then, finding a photograph that gives enough detail, shows a wagon that can be modelled from available kits without major surgery to change the number of planks/plank sizes, and then find transfers that are appropriate, can be frustrating. So, the reason for starting this thread. I would like to encourage modellers to post pictures of completed accurate models with a description of the source photo, kit, and transfers etc. I will start the ball rolling with a selection below that I believe are appropriate for the south end of the ECML in the 1930s. Please continue this thread with your models and the same information as I have provided so others can benefit from your research. As a final point, note that POWsides and Precision Decals offer services for a fee to provide transfers for you from suitable reference photographs if transfers are the one item lacking (I have no connection with them other than as a satisfied customer).

B&C1.jpg

Company: Brentnall & Cleland (3005)
Builder: Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Company
Time Period / Date: 1932
Location / Area: ECML London
Planks & Doors: 7 plank, side & end door
Photo Source: Keith Turton, PO Wagons, 1st Collection, p. 36
Model Kit: Slaters 4060
Transfers: POWsides 592

B&C2.png.jpg

Company: Brentnall & Cleland (3020)
Builder: Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Company
Time Period / Date: 1932
Location / Area: ECML London
Planks & Doors: 7 plank, side & end door
Photo Source: Keith Turton, PO Wagons, 1st Collection, p. 36
Model Kit: Parkside Models PC69
Transfers: POWsides 592

BWC.jpg

Company: Barber Walker & Co (H3576)
Builder: Not known
Time Period / Date: 1930s (built 1918)
Location / Area: ECML, London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 8 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hudson, PO Wagons Vol 1, Plate 25
Model Kit: Parkside Models PC71
Transfers: POWsides 7

Birley.jpg

Company: Birley (662)
Builder: Charles Roberts & Co
Time Period / Date: 1930s
Location / Area: ECML London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 8 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Keith Turton, PO Wagons, 1st Collection, p. 96
Model Kit: Parkside Models PC71
Transfers: POWsides 415

Foster.jpg

Company: E Foster & Co (2194)
Builder: Charles Roberts & Co
Time Period / Date: 1930s
Location / Area: ECML London
Planks & Doors: 8 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hudson Vol 1, pl 80 & HMRS ACK316 close
Model Kit: Parkside PC71
Transfers: POWsides 697

Ricketts.jpg

Company: Ricketts (4028)
Builder: Charles Roberts & Co
Time Period / Date: 1930s
Location / Area: ECML London
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hudson, PO Wagons, Vol 1, plate 86, Possibly 87 too
Model Kit: Slaters 4061
Transfers: POWsides 66

S&C1.jpg

Company: Stephenson Clarke (7836)
Builder: Charles Roberts & Co
Time Period / Date: 1930s
Location / Area: Widespread
Planks & Doors: 8 plank side & end doors
Photo Source: Hudson, PO Wagons Vol 1, plate 91
Model Kit: Parkside PC71
Transfers: POWsides 46

S&C8014.jpg

Company: Stephenson Clarke (8014)
Builder: Charles Roberts & Co
Time Period / Date: 1930s
Location / Area: Widespread
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hayes, 4 mm Coal Wagon p.50
Model Kit: Slaters 4061
Transfers: POWsides 46 in part

Wood1.jpg

Company: J R Wood & Co Ltd (346)
Builder: Not known
Time Period / Date: Mid-1930s
Location / Area: ECML London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hayes, 4 mm Coal Wagon p.8
Model Kit: Slaters 4061
Transfers: POWsides 242

Wood2.jpg

Company: J R Wood & Co Ltd (352)
Builder: Not known
Time Period / Date: Late 1930s
Location / Area: ECML London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hayes, 4 mm Coal Wagon p. 8
Model Kit: Slaters 4061
Transfers: POWsides 242

Wood3.jpg

Company: J R Wood & Co Ltd (1424)
Builder: Derbyshire Carriage & Wagon Co
Time Period / Date: Mid-1930s
Location / Area: ECML London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side door
Photo Source: Turton, 1st Collection, p. 115
Model Kit: Slaters 4060
Transfers: POWsides 266

Wood4.jpg

Company: J R Wood & Co Ltd (1416)
Builder: Not known
Time Period / Date: Mid-1930s
Location / Area: ECML London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side door
Photo Source: Turton, 1st Collection, p. 115
Model Kit: Parkside PC73
Transfers: POWsides 266


As a note to this set of photos, the builder’s plates, repair plates and registration plates were commissioned by me from John Peck of Precision Decals and pictured on his Instagram pages for anyone who wishes to take advantage of these. Best print is white over black. Again, I have no relation with him other than as a satisfied customer.

Plates.jpg

I look forward to seeing additions to this thread. Please add the results of your own research and builds, but can we please keep posts to providing the information below and an accompanying photo.

Company:
Builder:
Time Period / Date:
Location / Area:
Planks & Doors:
Photo Source:
Model Kit:
Transfers:
Build comments, additional parts etc:

[martin goodall]

I wasn’t previously aware of Joe Greaves' index, and am very grateful to Alan Webber for providing a link to it.

I had been aware for some time that a random choice of PO wagons for one’s layout on purely aesthetic grounds was not the right approach, but my own researches quickly demonstrated that this whole subject is a minefield.

I haven’t got time to go into all the ramifications here, but one factor is the various types of coal and their use. For example, Anthracite would be needed by industries involving any sort of food processing (including malting, hop drying and brewing). In addition to coal for domestic and general use, there was a need for specific types of coal for gas making and steam raising.

PO wagons could be operated (often hired rather than owned) by collieries, coal factors/colliery agents or coal merchants as well as some end users that were large enough to justify the cost of having their own wagons. Coal merchants’ wagons were local (although some firms traded over quite a wide area). Many coal factors and colliery agents were regional, but the distribution of colliery wagons depended on local customers’ preferences, the major factor being the distance from the nearest coalfield supplying the required type or types of coal. Thus in Bucks, Berks and Oxon there was a marked (but not exclusive) preference for domestic and general coal from the Warwickshire coalfield.

A particular problem that I identified was the need to check the period during which a particular colliery operated, compared with the chosen period of one’s layout. Another problem is that pre-lettered wagon kits often carry a livery which is anachronistic for that particular design of wagon. For example, there are quite a few kits and models for wagons built to the RCH 1923 specification portrayed carrying a livery which had disappeared before 1923, either because that colliery had closed or had merged with another one or because a different and simpler livery had been adopted by that time.

In the end, I decided that some of these problems are unavoidable, and one has to compromise to a greater or lesser extent. I did, however, identify a need in the inter-war period to have more wagons built to the RCH 1887 or 1907 specification, rather than the 1923 type. Local coal merchants, in particular, seem to have retained a preference for 10-ton wagons of the earlier types.

[andyvincentuk]

Firstly, I should declare an interest in that I produce the 3D printed wagon bodies under my 'Meon Valley Models' label that are sold by Brassmasters.

That said, whilst all the current ones are modeled on Gloucester wagons (13 variations so far!), I am in the process of adding bodies from other wagon builders. There are a couple of obvious ones in Charles Roberts and Stephenson Clarke (admittedly an owner who had wagons built to their own specification rather than a builder per se) but if anyone has any other asks then I am always happy to hear requests!

[jsherratt]

Hello Alan.

Thanks for the interesting article in S4 News and the thread here. I've been interested in PO wagons since the days of running round on Peco 00 track way back, though in no way do I feel like an expert. This photo might be of interest. According to the date painted underneath, I made it in 1996. The lettering for Berryhill Collieries of Stoke on Trent was commissioned from POWSides and was chosen to run on the Macclesfield Area Group's model of "Cheadle" North Stafford Railway which some on here may remember. The layout was retired from the exhibition circuit over 20 years ago and I suspect is now no more, though most of the buildings which were largely built by Keith Hayward plus the Station Master's house built by the late Ron Dickinson survive in my possession. But I digress...

The late Bernard Holland was very helpful with information on the lettering for these wagons. Some Berryhill wagons were lettered as empty to New Haden Colliery which was on the Cheadle branch, as this one is. The model is from a Slaters Charles Robert kit largely unmodified and it runs on a sprung underframe. Bernard was also very helpful with supplying information for two other designs of lettering which were later commissioned from POW Sides these being "Foxfield Colly" and Florence Coal & Iron Co.

Berryhill 521.jpg

[iak]

Smashing thread and smashing article.
I was fortunate to know David Goodwin who delved into the dark depths of PO wagons greatly.
Given time, I can post some images; the models being 30/35 years old.
PO wagons in early BR days is something I personally find fascinating. Some seemed to last an eternity and as for the state of them?

[Terry Bendall]

I am sure that many people will be aware of the Lightmore Press range of publications on private owner wagons. In the last couple of years they have added two books covering PO wagons of the South East, one covering the SECR area, and one covering the LBSC area. These are very useful if you are looking for wagons from a partiuclar area of the country. Some of the pictures include other trains and nearby infrastructure and these are useful for other aspects of our model making.

Terry Bendall

[jsherratt]

Smashing thread and smashing article.
I was fortunate to know David Goodwin who delved into the dark depths of PO wagons greatly.
Given time, I can post some images; the models being 30/35 years old.
PO wagons in early BR days is something I personally find fascinating. Some seemed to last an eternity and as for the state of them?

I remember David Goodwin (a lovely chap) and his PO wagons which appeared on the Plemsworth (?) layout. Some very fine models. I particularly remember there was a blue Sneyd wagon and a tall Silkstone wagon where the lettering was "stretched" to fit up the side. It would be great to see some photos of these at some time.

[John Palmer]

PO wagons in early BR days is something I personally find fascinating. Some seemed to last an eternity and as for the state of them?

Me too. In late 1967/early 1968 on the stub of the Old Road at Hamworthy Junction I came across a RCH 1923-pattern mineral with the majority of its 'Monckton' livery still intact on one side at least. It had received rectangular axleboxes and a 'LOCO 5X' branding, but was now redundant even for that purpose following the demise of steam on the Southern in 1967. I'll hazard a guess that wooden mineral wagons of this antiquity were pretty uncommon in the South of England by this date.

[Hardwicke]

Smashing thread and smashing article.
I was fortunate to know David Goodwin who delved into the dark depths of PO wagons greatly.
Given time, I can post some images; the models being 30/35 years old.
PO wagons in early BR days is something I personally find fascinating. Some seemed to last an eternity and as for the state of them?

I remember David Goodwin (a lovely chap) and his PO wagons which appeared on the Plemsworth (?) layout. Some very fine models. I particularly remember there was a blue Sneyd wagon and a tall Silkstone wagon where the lettering was "stretched" to fit up the side. It would be great to see some photos of these at some time.

Wasn't the Silkstone off Whetstone GCR?

[Hardwicke]

When I was researching local wagons, my mum recalled seeing blue Manton coal wagons at Worksop. No records of blue Manton ones but who's could they have been?

[jsherratt]

Smashing thread and smashing article.
I was fortunate to know David Goodwin who delved into the dark depths of PO wagons greatly.
Given time, I can post some images; the models being 30/35 years old.
PO wagons in early BR days is something I personally find fascinating. Some seemed to last an eternity and as for the state of them?

I remember David Goodwin (a lovely chap) and his PO wagons which appeared on the Plemsworth (?) layout. Some very fine models. I particularly remember there was a blue Sneyd wagon and a tall Silkstone wagon where the lettering was "stretched" to fit up the side. It would be great to see some photos of these at some time.

Wasn't the Silkstone off Whetstone GCR?

It is possible - this is probably going back to the 80's so my memory may well be fallible. Although, I do recall seeing Plemsworth several times whereas Whetstone I think I only saw once.

[iak]

David built stock for Whetstone as well I think.
He certainly helped in creating some of the Locomotives Andy Gibbs had.
Plemsworth and Whetstone had stock buil, including PO's, simultaneously. I have some of Davids project notes at home, written with his famous miniature pencil of course...

[awebber]

I’d like to thank everyone for their contributions. It would be good to see some pictures of people’s builds though.
Please don’t be shy in coming forward with your own examples!

[awebber]

So, here to progress this a bit further are two more of mine

Company: J L Davies & Co. Ltd Coal Merchants 123
Time Period/Date: Mid-1930s
Location/Area: ECML London Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 7 plank 10-ton side door
Model Kit: Slaters 4040
Transfers: Assembled from Woodhead transfers
Photo source: Hudson Vol.4, pl. 4
Build comments: Rubbing plates modified

[awebber]

Company: George Field & Son 15
Time Period/Date: 1930s
Location/Area: South London but not known where coal travelled from, either north or midlands
Planks & Doors: 7 plank 10-ton side door
Model Kit: Slaters 4040
Transfers: POWsides 0751
Photo source: Hudson, Vol 4, pl. 5
Build comments: Modifications to strapping

[Hardwicke]

From what I remember in the Bill Hudson books, the 8 plank wagons were ex WW1 Ministry of Munitions wagons sold off. Lots of rectanks and vans were also sold off and many wagons with Rectank chassis appeared in the 1920. Some LMS tube wagons were box vans rebuilt from LWB vans

[Hardwicke]

I've posted these on one of my own threads but here they care again. The Kenline "Lacey" still needs "Tare" and "Empty to" lettering. These are for a layout based in North Notts./North Derbyshire, /West Riding (South Yorkshire) area.

IMG20230911160134.jpg

IMG20230911160114.jpg

IMG20230911160002.jpg