GER Society list of 4mm models

Model and prototype rolling stock, locos, multiple units etc.
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Paul Willis
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GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:27 am

The Great Eastern Railway Society has just published its updated list of available 4mm models. By available, it also includes via eBay and second-hand stalls for the items long out of production.

This is a publication that is maintained which aims to list all RTR, kits, or other elements that are for a modeller of the Great Eastern Railway, the LNER, or BR(E) Region. It's scope is from the earliest days to the current time, and it ranges from RTR locomotives to buildings.

It is both a major company and small supplier source of information. As you would expect, it is of a fair size, so the download may take a while.

Finally, credit must go to Paul Goldsmith as the author and compiler of such a monumental document. Some members of the GERS are currently considering how it can revive interest in discussion of GER models, and there may be more material to come in the fullness of time. The GERS website is at https://www.gersociety.org.uk

Cheers
Paul

Modelling the railways of East Anglia in 4mm Scale Issue 8 February 2021 final.pdf
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Daddyman
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:44 am

Paul Willis wrote: Modelling the railways of East Anglia in 4mm Scale Issue 8 February 2021 final.pdf


It' a very impressive piece of work that other societies could learn from. Very nicely produced too.

I do think, however, that some distinction should have been made between kits in production and those long out of production (and not coming back), as it might lead to manufacturers such as Connoisseur and D&S being pestered for 4mm stuff. When Dan Pinnock's NER range briefly came back a few years ago, I offered to publicise it in the journal of the NERA but he asked me not to; he was happy for those that knew to know, and didn't want the wider publicity.
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jjnewitt
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby jjnewitt » Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:30 am

Impressive but not complete. Absolutely no mention of the chassis kits for the F4/5/6, J15 and S23 and Z14 tenders that are available from Rumney Models.

Sometimes I wonder if I actually exist...

Justin

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:05 am

As David says a tremendous effort. I agree that some indication of what is no longer readily available who help, much as the LNWR Society does in the Modelling Information section of their website (introduced many years ago!).

Justin may feel justifiably aggrieved but knowing of every product that is available is a rather difficult task. Online searches don't always bring to light everything that might be available, especially if the product is in new hands. How the item is presented on a website sometimes evades the search engines. A search for Z14 tenders brings up a pdf for Justin's kit instructions but no other mention of his website. The D&S kits now in the LRM range are identified as such but a search for D&S LNWR Milk Van doesn't show the LRM site, unless you add "6 wheel" to the description.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Guy Rixon » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:34 am

jjnewitt wrote:Impressive but not complete. Absolutely no mention of the chassis kits for the F4/5/6, J15 and S23 and Z14 tenders that are available from Rumney Models.

Sometimes I wonder if I actually exist...

Justin


Possibly complete up to a date about three years ago? It includes two of my carriage-fittings sets but not the more-recent Set "C". I wonder what would be the protocol for requesting updates?

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dcockling
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby dcockling » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:41 am

jjnewitt wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if I actually exist...

Justin


You definitely exist Justin :D and here is a piece of photographic evidence

DSCF2398.JPG


Here's to when we can all get together again

All the Best
Danny
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Will L
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Will L » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:03 am

jjnewitt wrote:Impressive but not complete. Absolutely no mention of the chassis kits for the F4/5/6, J15 and S23 and Z14 tenders that are available from Rumney Models.

Sometimes I wonder if I actually exist...

I'm sure if you give the guys elbow a gentle jog, you'll probably get listed and an apology too.

Sad to say I too was only very vaguely aware of your GER product , but then I am now a poor supporter of the trade as I brought lot of things I wanted to build years ago and I'm only slowly working my way through the pile. These days I only start looking for suppliers when I need something in particular. I have been working on a Gibson F6 mostly because I wanted to try applying CSBs over radial trucks and for that the existing chassis is a good a starting point as any. So I haven't been supporting your efforts either sorry, which is perhaps a pity as you stuff does have such a good reputation.

However, the point of bringing all this up at all is, as you might expect of me, is my interest in the logic of applying CSB in general and over carrying wheels in particular. On the F series locos, this is hard to avoid. I though long and hard about what weight distribution I should go for across driving and carrying wheels and I was wondering what decision you made on this? I went for 60% on the drivers and 40% on the carrying wheels, but I have yet to get to the stage of testing the performance.

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dcockling
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby dcockling » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:08 am

Justin, you are included, I've found you on page 33

Rumney.jpg


All the Best
Danny
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jjnewitt
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby jjnewitt » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:30 am

Ahh I do exist! That's a relief.

Well found Danny, I didn't get that far. Not sure why I didn't get listed in the F4/5/6 and J15 sections though.

Will L wrote:Sad to say I too was only very vaguely aware of your GER product , but then I am now a poor supporter of the trade as I brought lot of things I wanted to build years ago and I'm only slowly working my way through the pile. These days I only start looking for suppliers when I need something in particular.


Sadly for todays kit manufacturer a familar story and one I hear often. With an aging demographic and more and more people not buying new products because they have got to the point where they've actually realised that they aren't going to build everything they already have, it points to bleak future for our end the hobby.

Will L wrote:However, the point of bringing all this up at all is, as you might expect of me, is my interest in the logic of applying CSB in general and over carrying wheels in particular. On the F series locos, this is hard to avoid. I though long and hard about what weight distribution I should go for across driving and carrying wheels and I was wondering what decision you made on this? I went for 60% on the drivers and 40% on the carrying wheels, but I have yet to get to the stage of testing the performance.


The reasoning I think was exactly as you suggest; the person who commissioned it wanted it to be fitted with CSBS and there's not really room for another arrangement. I couldn't think of a good reason why not either. There's not that much difference between these tanks and an 0-8-0. It's so long ago I can't remember exactly what I did with the plot though I'm sure I probably would have made arrangements for more weight being over the drivers. It would make sense though you'd want to make sure the carrying wheels take their fair share of weight.

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Rod Cameron
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Rod Cameron » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:42 am

Well done the GER Society for producing that. I (the archive) have Laxfield in storage (John Watson's layout in MRJ 0) having received it from Danny a few years ago. The plan is to refurbish it and assume the MSL survived long enough to run my Class 15 and a railbus as well as J15 etc.

Yet another Cameron/Farmer co-production! The GER document will prove very useful.
Rod

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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby bécasse » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:54 pm

" I (the archive) have Laxfield in storage (John Watson's layout in MRJ 0) having received it from Danny a few years ago. The plan is to refurbish it and assume the MSL survived long enough to run my Class 15 and a railbus as well as J15 etc."

That sounds inspirational. I am most unlikely to ever see it, but I did see John Watson's original, but hopefully I shall at least be able to see magazine write-ups.

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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby petermeyer » Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:15 pm

Jol,

It's a while since I did a proper job in this area but if you look at the description of the Milk Van (on the Society's site), you will find it does not contain any reference to LNWR:

"26′ MILK VAN
A number of the 26′ Luggage Vans were rebuilt in the early 1890’s as Milk Vans, as a result of the great increase in the amount of perishable traffic, which required ventilated vehicles. The rebuild involved putting louvres in all the upper side panels (except the doors) and removing the dog boxes at either end.
Like the Luggage Vans, they generally lasted until 1903-06 and some were later modified to have a 4 wheel underframe. Formerly part of the D&S range, the body is etched brass, with a vacuum-formed plasticard roof. White metal castings provide the roof and other details. The kit incorporates a six-wheel underframe with a suspension system. This can be modified to the four-wheel version, as described by Bob Williams in Your Model Railway, March 1986."

As LNWR does not appear in the description then I presume a search engine will struggle to find it easily. Back in the day you could put all of this in meta tags but I'm not sure that's how it works anymore. Suggest then that someone edits this to add LNWR. If it gets to the top of the search engine listings I'll waive my usual fee...

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Paul Willis
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:05 pm

Daddyman wrote:
Paul Willis wrote: Modelling the railways of East Anglia in 4mm Scale Issue 8 February 2021 final.pdf


It' a very impressive piece of work that other societies could learn from. Very nicely produced too.

I do think, however, that some distinction should have been made between kits in production and those long out of production (and not coming back), as it might lead to manufacturers such as Connoisseur and D&S being pestered for 4mm stuff. When Dan Pinnock's NER range briefly came back a few years ago, I offered to publicise it in the journal of the NERA but he asked me not to; he was happy for those that knew to know, and didn't want the wider publicity.


Hi David,

This is something that's been produced for a few years. I'm sure that other line societies would benefit from something similar, as you say. The LNWR Society has an excellent online offering. Choosing at random... http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmlocos.php

I think that the suggestion of differentiating "current" and "lapsed" models would drive the compilers to distraction, if not outright insanity. It's bad enough tracking what is available, let alone determining its "status". And what about a limited edition RTR model that the factory has sold out of the run, but there are one or two out unsold in model shops?

Better not to go there...

I appreciate what you are saying about Jim and Danny. The general perception is that those ranges are "ex-", and I think they are likely to get roughly the same number of random enquiries anyway, given the nature of railway modellers!

Cheers
Paul
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Paul Willis
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:09 pm

jjnewitt wrote:Impressive but not complete. Absolutely no mention of the chassis kits for the F4/5/6, J15 and S23 and Z14 tenders that are available from Rumney Models.

Sometimes I wonder if I actually exist...

Justin


Evening Justin,

Well, I know you exist... I'll pass on the full details of the full range that exists.

Cheers
Paul
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Paul Willis
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:14 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:
jjnewitt wrote:Impressive but not complete. Absolutely no mention of the chassis kits for the F4/5/6, J15 and S23 and Z14 tenders that are available from Rumney Models.

Sometimes I wonder if I actually exist...

Justin


Possibly complete up to a date about three years ago? It includes two of my carriage-fittings sets but not the more-recent Set "C". I wonder what would be the protocol for requesting updates?


Evening Guy,

I'll happily pass the details on.

Cheers
Paul
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby RAO » Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:23 pm

Excellent list.
As others have said it's a bench mark for other Railways, such as the Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway!
I'm certainly interested as to what others will contribute to your very comprehensive schedule.

billbedford

Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby billbedford » Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:44 am

Paul Willis wrote:I think that the suggestion of differentiating "current" and "lapsed" models would drive the compilers to distraction, if not outright insanity. It's bad enough tracking what is available, let alone determining its "status". And what about a limited edition RTR model that the factory has sold out of the run, but there are one or two out unsold in model shops?

Better not to go there...


Sorry, but this goes to the heart of the problem with this list. If someone is planning their collection of models to build then 'this is a 50-year-old kit that comes up occasionally on eBay' is salient information. The listings on the GWR Modelling site manage to mark old kits very simply.

There are some other problems: A pdf that is 3 years out of date before it is published just doesn't cut it anymore when websites can be continuously updated. And, the people who really know about what's going are the manufacturers themselves, so if the compilers were really serious about keeping the list up to date I would expect them to check their entries with the producer at least once a year.

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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Daddyman » Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:46 pm

billbedford wrote: Sorry, but this goes to the heart of the problem with this list. If someone is planning their collection of models to build then 'this is a 50-year-old kit that comes up occasionally on eBay' is salient information. The listings on the GWR Modelling site manage to mark old kits very simply.


Yes, the NBRSG does this too (though admittedly they have fewer listings on their page): one column says "current" or "discontinued" and the next "may be available on ebay":
https://www.nbrstudygroup.co.uk/modelling/scale4mm.php

Having said that, it hasn't been updated since March 2018...

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Will L
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Will L » Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:21 pm

Before we get to existed here I do think people might try looking at what is available.

1. It is copyright as at 3/2/2021 so quite why anybody should assume its 3 years old I don't know.
2. If you read the introduction it has been in production for 20 years and represents an accumulation of knowledge over that time, but that doesn't mean it 20 years old either.
3. It specifically straits that he doesn't attempt to determine what is and is not still in production. Clearly trying to keep up with that would be a major undertaking, and in any event in these days of Ebay, out or production and not available aren't the same things.
4. It is 67 closely packed pages long and is much much more than a list of loco kits. Rumney models stuff is logically listed under loco components. There is a lot of stuff listed under this heading and if you tried to list much of this under the locos to which they applied you would have another mammoth task. Some chassis kits for specific locos listed under loco components have made it to the loco list, but quite a few haven't. I would suggest email to to compiler, (read the introduction) will resolve the issue.
5. If they were starting today. doing the whole thing as a database might make more seance, although the data analysis you'd need to do first could be "fun" for a techy but is always likely to lead to similar blind spots and some difficulty in placing some of the eclectic bits of info that are currently included. Controlling who could update could be fun too.

All in all, gift horses and mouths come to mind.

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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby bécasse » Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:54 pm

It may have been last updated on 3/2/2021, but lists can't be copyrighted. The only exception is if they incorporate significant analysis by the originator which wouldn't be the case here, although it might have been if, say, loco fittings had been cross-referenced to the classes that carried them.

Although lists can't be copyrighted, it is still necessary to acknowledge the originator when publishing any part of them.

billbedford

Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby billbedford » Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:07 pm

Will L wrote:Before we get to existed here I do think people might try looking at what is available.

1. It is copyright as at 3/2/2021 so quite why anybody should assume its 3 years old I don't know.


See Guy Rixon's comment above

2. If you read the introduction it has been in production for 20 years and represents an accumulation of knowledge over that time, but that doesn't mean it 20 years old either.


...and how many times has it been updated?

3. It specifically straits that he doesn't attempt to determine what is and is not still in production. Clearly trying to keep up with that would be a major undertaking, and in any event in these days of Ebay, out or production and not available aren't the same things.


Which obviously makes it less useful for most modellers. Many of the ranges quoted have been out of business for longer than 20 years and surely it doesn't take that much effort to send an email asking for confirmation of current production to all known manufacturers?

4. It is 67 closely packed pages long and is much much more than a list of loco kits. Rumney models stuff is logically listed under loco components. There is a lot of stuff listed under this heading and if you tried to list much of this under the locos to which they applied you would have another mammoth task. Some chassis kits for specific locos listed under loco components have made it to the loco list, but quite a few haven't.


Confusing or what?

5. If they were starting today. doing the whole thing as a database might make more seance, although the data analysis you'd need to do first could be "fun" for a techy but is always likely to lead to similar blind spots and some difficulty in placing some of the eclectic bits of info that are currently included. Controlling who could update could be fun too.


Designing a database is not exactly rocket science.

All in all, gift horses and mouths come to mind.

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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:02 pm

billbedford wrote:<snip lots>

Designing a database is not exactly rocket science.

<snip lots>


Bill, if it's so easy, in all of the ways the you have pointed out in rebuttal of Will, perhaps you'd like to demonstrate.

My suggestion is the Midland Railway/LMS/LMR. You're starting from a comparable sized entity as the GER, and I'm unaware of an equivalent to the GERS list for the MR.

When do you think we should expect to see it from you?

Cheers
Paul
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Edward45
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Edward45 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:35 pm

G K Chesterton - *If a thing is worth doing its worth doing badly". An awful lot of work has gone into this and having a go is important even if it doesn't satisfy everybody.

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Noel
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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Noel » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:03 pm

Paul Willis wrote:Bill, if it's so easy, in all of the ways the you have pointed out in rebuttal of Will, perhaps you'd like to demonstrate.
My suggestion is the Midland Railway/LMS/LMR. You're starting from a comparable sized entity as the GER, and I'm unaware of an equivalent to the GERS list for the MR.
When do you think we should expect to see it from you?
Cheers
Paul


That is unfair, Paul. Bill has made perfectly valid points and is under no obligation to prove anything to you or anyone else.
Regards
Noel

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Re: GER Society list of 4mm models

Postby Carlos » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:13 pm

Will L wrote:Before we get to existed here I do think people might try looking at what is available.

1. It is copyright as at 3/2/2021 so quite why anybody should assume its 3 years old I don't know.
2. If you read the introduction it has been in production for 20 years and represents an accumulation of knowledge over that time, but that doesn't mean it 20 years old either.
3. It specifically straits that he doesn't attempt to determine what is and is not still in production. Clearly trying to keep up with that would be a major undertaking, and in any event in these days of Ebay, out or production and not available aren't the same things.
4. It is 67 closely packed pages long and is much much more than a list of loco kits. Rumney models stuff is logically listed under loco components. There is a lot of stuff listed under this heading and if you tried to list much of this under the locos to which they applied you would have another mammoth task. Some chassis kits for specific locos listed under loco components have made it to the loco list, but quite a few haven't. I would suggest email to to compiler, (read the introduction) will resolve the issue.
5. If they were starting today. doing the whole thing as a database might make more seance, although the data analysis you'd need to do first could be "fun" for a techy but is always likely to lead to similar blind spots and some difficulty in placing some of the eclectic bits of info that are currently included. Controlling who could update could be fun too.

All in all, gift horses and mouths come to mind.



Well said, Will. The person who created the list did it for his own use, and kindly shared it for others to use. Nobody has to use it, and you can ignore it if it is of no use to you. I have found it useful in the past, and I find more frustrating that many manufacturers or products have disappeared, rather than they are listed there.

Carlos


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