GWR Bloater livery

Model and prototype rolling stock, locos, multiple units etc.
bogusman
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:59 pm

GWR Bloater livery

Postby bogusman » Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:45 pm

Hello gents
Does any member know if the buffer beam and buffers were body colour or were they the colour of the solebars.

Pete

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1975
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby Noel » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:48 pm

Post-grouping practice was for all carriage stock, including NPCCS, to have black ends. I only have an early edition of the HMRS Livery Register, but that dates the start of black ends on carriage stock to the Concertinas in 1906; Harris in GW Coaches says 1907. Prior to that the ends were brown. Underframes were black.
Regards
Noel

bogusman
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:59 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby bogusman » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:21 pm

Thanks for the information Noel.

Pete

martin goodall
Posts: 1425
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:20 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby martin goodall » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:52 am

My understanding is that the underframes of GWR Brown Vehicles (including headstocks, buffers, etc.) were always painted black.

As regards body colour, there appears to have been a change of practice around 1928. Prior to that date, the ends of the body (but not the headstocks, buffer housings, etc. - see above) were painted brown and carried the running number centrally painted on the end. Some Brown Vehicles also displayed 'G W' on the ends, plus some other details in some cases (particularly on the Beetles C). However, practice was not consistent in this regard.

After 1928, the ends of Brown Vehicles were painted black, and the running number and other lettering was no longer carried on the ends of the vehicle. (The painting of running numbers was also discontinued on GWR goods wagons after 1928.)

As a general rule, Brown Vehicles do not appear to have been cleaned (in contrast with passenger carrying vehicles), and so generally appeared in various states of weathering.

User avatar
steve howe
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:16 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby steve howe » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:20 pm

Even if the solebars and headstocks were wooden, as on earlier vehicles, they still carried a lot of ironwork and it was customary to paint iron black, being a mixture of black iron oxide, carbon, lead and linseed oil, as a fairly effective coating against corrosion.

Steve

User avatar
Ian@Exton
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:12 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby Ian@Exton » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:22 pm

I don't think that it is quite as simple as Martin Goodall has suggested. Looking at the pictures of Brown vehicles in Jim Russell's Great Western Coaches Appendix Volume 2, there are some clear cases where a brown vehicle has black ends - for example N16 horse box 546, built in 1937, which has steel sheeted ends, and they are clearly a darker colour than the brown sides.

In contrast, diagram Y11 fruit van 2885 of 1941, which has planked ends, seems to have the same colour on the sides and ends.

So I get the impression that some types of brown vehicles - fruit vans, beetles and bloaters, with planked ends, may have retained brown ends as well as sides, at least until the Second World War.

There is another question - how frequently were brown vehicles repainted? My guess is that they were not repainted very often, if at all.

Perhaps it depends on the period that you are modelling, but for a layout set before 1940 I would give my Bloater brown ends.

Ian

bogusman
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:59 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby bogusman » Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:59 am

Thank you gents for all the information. After reading all your comments and studying all the photos available to me ( not many of Bloaters) I have decided to paint the headstocks and buffers black. As already mentioned when brown vehicals start to weather and not cleaned where does the brown finish and the black starts!. Please look at the bloater on workbench section. Comments are welcomed.

Pete

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1975
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby Noel » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:23 pm

IANATEXTON wrote:Looking at the pictures of Brown vehicles in Jim Russell's Great Western Coaches Appendix Volume 2, there are some clear cases where a brown vehicle has black ends - for example N16 horse box 546, built in 1937, which has steel sheeted ends, and they are clearly a darker colour than the brown sides.

In contrast, diagram Y11 fruit van 2885 of 1941, which has planked ends, seems to have the same colour on the sides and ends.


The photo of 546 was take with the vehicles ex-works, and also, incidentally, shows that the drop door framing and the overlap of the end sheeting onto the sides is black as well. In the also ex-works photo of Y11 2885, it can just be seen that there is no difference in shade where the corner angle crosses from body to underframe on the end, but there is where it crosses from the body side to the underframe, as there is with the angles either side of the doors. In different lighting conditions, it is impossible to be certain about such subtle variations in colour in monochrome prints, as the, also ex-works, ex-Bloater parcel van 2694 on the page facing Y11 shows.

I would think that all three photos were taken on panchromatic film, given the dates, but the problem of distinguishing between black and dark brown is even worse with photos taken on the earlier orthochromatic film, which 'sees' reds as black, and so 'sees' dark brown as black as well. In addition, even in GWR days, brown vehicles would not normally have been cleaned, and this effectively makes it impossible to be sure about the difference between black and dark brown in 'in service' photos.

IANATEXTON wrote:There is another question - how frequently were brown vehicles repainted? My guess is that they were not repainted very often, if at all.


I don't know what the GW's painting schedules were, but brown vehicles were just as much subject to deterioration as any other equipment. The colours used varied, and might well have been related to the company 'image' [although not thought of in those terms] but the paint was there solely to protect the companies assets, whatever they were, movable or not. Everything on the railway that was painted got regularly inspected and repainted, at least in theory [sometimes vehicles got lost], after replacement of any parts no longer fit for use. Wooden vehicles especially would have individual planks, or even their whole bodies, replaced when necessary.
Regards
Noel

bogusman
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:59 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby bogusman » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:37 pm

This does seem to be a can of worms that I have opened. Even looking at some of the preserved examples can we be sure these are correct.

Pete

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 3033
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:54 pm

bogusman wrote:This does seem to be a can of worms that I have opened. Even looking at some of the preserved examples can we be sure these are correct.

Pete


Pete,

In what are entirely serious comments:

- local practices/variations with time/paint availability means that over the course of a period, working practices almost certainly differed from "what the manual says".

- there is no one going to turn up with a pre-Grouping colour photo to prove you wrong.

Combined with the facts from the conversation already above, the evidence from B/W photos is variable and indeterminate, then painting on the basis of "reasonable assumptions" is highly unlikely to be proven wrong.

Sometimes the mists of time are just too dense to peer through and establish 100% of the facts.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1975
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby Noel » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:25 pm

You also have to allow for time taken to repaint all stock when the livery changed, which would take a number of years, the exact duration depending on circumstances. I would suggest that the manual is a sensible starting point, though, unless you have reasonable evidence to suggest that something different happened, especially with the post-grouping railways and BR.
Regards
Noel

bogusman
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:59 pm

Re: GWR Bloater livery

Postby bogusman » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:13 pm

I suppose at the end of the day I will have to be a bit more pragmatic but for me it is going against the grain as being an engineer by trade it was either right or wrong. Once again thank you all for this information.

Pete


Return to “Trains: Model and Prototype”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClaudeBot and 0 guests