Thoughts on Motors
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
And large torques on bevels means large axial thrusts...
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Jol Wilkinson wrote:....I looked at the Gizmodo sire and couldn't make any sense of it. ....
This is the bevel gears page for Gizmoszone
That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Horsetan wrote:Jol Wilkinson wrote:....I looked at the Gizmodo sire and couldn't make any sense of it. ....
This is the bevel gears page for Gizmoszone
Thanks Ivan,
a quick look seems to show that they are supplying (reselling?) parts aimed at the techno gadget market, with 3 volt motors etc. aimed at battery powered aircraft,robots, etc.
The bevel gears listed have 1.5mm shafts, so okay for replacing worms but then need to be incorporated into a more complex gear train. I didn't see anything that really caught my interest as being of use.
Jol
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Jol Wilkinson wrote:Horsetan wrote:Jol Wilkinson wrote:....I looked at the Gizmodo sire and couldn't make any sense of it. ....
This is the bevel gears page for Gizmoszone
Thanks Ivan,
a quick look seems to show that they are supplying (reselling?) parts aimed at the techno gadget market, with 3 volt motors etc. aimed at battery powered aircraft,robots, etc.
The bevel gears listed have 1.5mm shafts, so okay for replacing worms but then need to be incorporated into a more complex gear train. I didn't see anything that really caught my interest as being of use.
Here are the bevels available from Lemo-Solar
....and spurs available from the same source
That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Thanks Ivan,
interesting site. Plenty of 12 volt motors too, but mainly at eye watering prices!
Jol
interesting site. Plenty of 12 volt motors too, but mainly at eye watering prices!
Jol
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Contrate/pinion/spur gearboxes: David Rogers of Ultrascale looks at our Forum from time to time as a guest and thought that the attached picture might be of interest in view of the present discussions, and asked me if I might post it on his behalf. It is of a couple of experimental gearboxes he made up a few years ago using his own gears, which are readily available.
He has asked me to say that there is no intention to produce these gearboxes, the likely cost would be prohibitive, this is merely to illustrate the kind of thing possible with the available gears. If there are any questions I am sure he would be happy to answer.
Philip
He has asked me to say that there is no intention to produce these gearboxes, the likely cost would be prohibitive, this is merely to illustrate the kind of thing possible with the available gears. If there are any questions I am sure he would be happy to answer.
Philip
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Philip Hall wrote:Contrate/pinion/spur gearboxes: David Rogers of Ultrascale looks at our Forum from time to time as a guest and thought that the attached picture might be of interest in view of the present discussions, and asked me if I might post it on his behalf. It is of a couple of experimental gearboxes he made up a few years ago using his own gears, which are readily available.
He has asked me to say that there is no intention to produce these gearboxes, the likely cost would be prohibitive, this is merely to illustrate the kind of thing possible with the available gears. ...
Those are the same ones he showed me on a previous visit to the workshop.
Arguably, Ultrascale have produced something similar in the past, when they used to make motor bogies for certain diesels. They still have a few of them in their display cabinet.
The other possibility might be miniature crossed helicals, as used in Aijin HO and Slaters gearboxes.
billbedford wrote:....The problem with all spur gear arrangements is the volume they occupy. The gear of the smallest 10:1 pair with a fine 0.3 mod teeth would be in the region of 30mm diameter. The alternative would be two stages of 3.2:1 or three of 2.15:1. Probably OK if you wanted a portiscap type gear box, but too big for anything small.
Could we not make use of the small spurs available for 2mmFS engines, to help save space? Ultrascale make some, and of course supply the 2mm Association.
Last edited by Horsetan on Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
As I remember Geoff Brewin had designed and marketed a series of gearboxes that included helical gears - and no these weren't cheap either. Are these still available? Still if you've not a suitable motor the gearbox becomes pretty redundant.
Mike
Mike
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
David Rogers has asked me to post a response to comment on the earlier post as follows...
"Horsetan is correct in that a set of crossed helical gears could be used in a gear box, in place of a worm and wheel set or contrate and pinion. However, these type of gears generate a large amount of axial thrust and to use them effectively would require a good set of bearings in the gear box and on the motor, if used as the primary stage in the design."
...and he has also enclosed some photographs showing these type of gear sets and a small gear box that uses them.
Philip
"Horsetan is correct in that a set of crossed helical gears could be used in a gear box, in place of a worm and wheel set or contrate and pinion. However, these type of gears generate a large amount of axial thrust and to use them effectively would require a good set of bearings in the gear box and on the motor, if used as the primary stage in the design."
...and he has also enclosed some photographs showing these type of gear sets and a small gear box that uses them.
Philip
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
There has been at least one RTR bevel and spur gearbox apart from the RG4, and that is the one made by Märklin for some of its Wurtemberg Pacifics and the Br.45 2-10-2. The spare part number is 280560, and I have seen them for sale on eBay from time to time for just over a tenner.
Here's Marklin's own exploded diagram, showing the gearbox (with Faulhaber motor attached) as item no.21.
There are a couple of photos of the basic setup here (scroll down to the Faulhaber subheading), but they do not show how the bevel and spurs are arranged within the box.
Naturally I bought a sample to have a look at how they did it. Here's a photo I found of the innards:
Still available from Comet's owner Andrew Hartshorne. There was only the one: MGB1, teamed with a Maxon motor. The gears are supplied to Comet by ABC, I was told by Geoff prior to his death, so are practically the same as the ones used in ABC's 7mm gearboxes.
Here's Marklin's own exploded diagram, showing the gearbox (with Faulhaber motor attached) as item no.21.
There are a couple of photos of the basic setup here (scroll down to the Faulhaber subheading), but they do not show how the bevel and spurs are arranged within the box.
Naturally I bought a sample to have a look at how they did it. Here's a photo I found of the innards:
Mike Garwood wrote:As I remember Geoff Brewin had designed and marketed a series of gearboxes that included helical gears - and no these weren't cheap either. Are these still available? ...
Still available from Comet's owner Andrew Hartshorne. There was only the one: MGB1, teamed with a Maxon motor. The gears are supplied to Comet by ABC, I was told by Geoff prior to his death, so are practically the same as the ones used in ABC's 7mm gearboxes.
That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
I have had a further email from David Rogers as follows...
Philip
"I did some digging around over the weekend and found a bit of development work I did around 2012 using the 3D printer I have to produce a bevel gear. The result was OK but not as good as I would have liked. I've attached three photos of this work and thought that it could be of interest to the current thread."
Philip
"I did some digging around over the weekend and found a bit of development work I did around 2012 using the 3D printer I have to produce a bevel gear. The result was OK but not as good as I would have liked. I've attached three photos of this work and thought that it could be of interest to the current thread."
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Philip: that looks a bit like the Gismozone bevel gears.
That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Ivan,
If you mean the pictures in the the last post, they may well look similar, but I don't know, I've never seen them. However, those pictures came from David direct and the drawing and printed samples are his, as he said in the note.
Philip
If you mean the pictures in the the last post, they may well look similar, but I don't know, I've never seen them. However, those pictures came from David direct and the drawing and printed samples are his, as he said in the note.
Philip
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Mike Garwood wrote:As I remember Geoff Brewin had designed and marketed a series of gearboxes that included helical gears - and no these weren't cheap either. Are these still available? Still if you've not a suitable motor the gearbox becomes pretty redundant.
Mike
Andrew has recently released another motor/gearbox combination using a Cannon motor.
Tony Wright extols its virtues here
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... try2754206
including a picture of it installed in a chassis.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Here's another view of the Faulhaber with Marklin's bevel and spur box:
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That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
.... and here's the sample which arrived today:
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That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
I've got a set of bevel gears manufactured (or supplied) by North West Short Line. They have (or at least used to have?) a very extensive range of gears of many types.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Enigma wrote:I've got a set of bevel gears manufactured (or supplied) by North West Short Line. They have (or at least used to have?) a very extensive range of gears of many types.
Didn't know NSWL made bevel gears. I have a couple of sets by Grandt Line.
That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Horsetan wrote:Enigma wrote:I've got a set of bevel gears manufactured (or supplied) by North West Short Line. They have (or at least used to have?) a very extensive range of gears of many types.
Didn't know NSWL made bevel gears. I have a couple of sets by Grandt Line.
Could be Grandt Line! It's a while since I've looked at them. I know they're from the US of A, I'll check later.
EDIT - it is Grandt Line! I also have a set of Ultrascale ones.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
So, to cut to the original "Thoughts on Motors" (although bevel geared boxes is certainly another of my interests), does this group actually have a recommendation for replacements for the Mashima range.
The particular problem I have is the 12xx range, the 1220 & 1224 fit nicely in my models, the 14xx range which seems to be still available will require some redesign around the front and rear of the firebox which will reduce the strength there across the box - not a huge problem I know, except on the nearly completed models where some butchery is needed.
I would be happy to accept lower voltage motors for the Protocab system, but they are likely to need to redesign their control unit to suit (and make it smaller as a result - which may be good for some) but this will take them quite a while.
But is there an immediate replacement?
John
The particular problem I have is the 12xx range, the 1220 & 1224 fit nicely in my models, the 14xx range which seems to be still available will require some redesign around the front and rear of the firebox which will reduce the strength there across the box - not a huge problem I know, except on the nearly completed models where some butchery is needed.
I would be happy to accept lower voltage motors for the Protocab system, but they are likely to need to redesign their control unit to suit (and make it smaller as a result - which may be good for some) but this will take them quite a while.
But is there an immediate replacement?
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Talking to Brian at Branchlines it seems he has good stocks of many Mashima motors. His April 2017 list shows that 1420, 1424 and 1626 are out of stock. Therefore stocking up carefully for future building might be useful. The 10 series are more powerful than the 12s, I think, so that might help you, John.
For the future, I have a couple of the cheap Mitsumi motors which are slow revving but very smooth, I guess about the same size as a 14, so I will be looking at those at some stage.
Philip
For the future, I have a couple of the cheap Mitsumi motors which are slow revving but very smooth, I guess about the same size as a 14, so I will be looking at those at some stage.
Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Philip Hall wrote: For the future, I have a couple of the cheap Mitsubishi motors which are slow revving but very smooth, Philip
Mitsubishi Phillip? Possibly Mitsumi? I know Mitsubishi probably have a range of electric motors for use in their hybrid cars - but they could be a bit big for 4mm models
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Re: Thoughts on Motors
Quite right, Paul, I meant Mitsumi, but didn't notice the iPad had changed it!
Philip
Philip
Re: Thoughts on Motors
Quite an interesting discussion on replacement motors going on on RMWeb at the moment:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt-3564553
DT
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt-3564553
DT
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