Thoughts on Motors

Model and prototype rolling stock, locos, multiple units etc.
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Russ Elliott
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Russ Elliott » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:52 pm

And large torques on bevels means large axial thrusts...

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Horsetan
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Horsetan » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:53 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:....I looked at the Gizmodo sire and couldn't make any sense of it. ....


This is the bevel gears page for Gizmoszone
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:27 am

Horsetan wrote:
Jol Wilkinson wrote:....I looked at the Gizmodo sire and couldn't make any sense of it. ....


This is the bevel gears page for Gizmoszone


Thanks Ivan,

a quick look seems to show that they are supplying (reselling?) parts aimed at the techno gadget market, with 3 volt motors etc. aimed at battery powered aircraft,robots, etc.

The bevel gears listed have 1.5mm shafts, so okay for replacing worms but then need to be incorporated into a more complex gear train. I didn't see anything that really caught my interest as being of use.

Jol

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Horsetan
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Horsetan » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:12 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:
Horsetan wrote:
Jol Wilkinson wrote:....I looked at the Gizmodo sire and couldn't make any sense of it. ....


This is the bevel gears page for Gizmoszone


Thanks Ivan,

a quick look seems to show that they are supplying (reselling?) parts aimed at the techno gadget market, with 3 volt motors etc. aimed at battery powered aircraft,robots, etc.

The bevel gears listed have 1.5mm shafts, so okay for replacing worms but then need to be incorporated into a more complex gear train. I didn't see anything that really caught my interest as being of use.


Here are the bevels available from Lemo-Solar

....and spurs available from the same source
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:14 pm

Thanks Ivan,

interesting site. Plenty of 12 volt motors too, but mainly at eye watering prices!

Jol

Philip Hall
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:40 pm

Contrate/pinion/spur gearboxes: David Rogers of Ultrascale looks at our Forum from time to time as a guest and thought that the attached picture might be of interest in view of the present discussions, and asked me if I might post it on his behalf. It is of a couple of experimental gearboxes he made up a few years ago using his own gears, which are readily available.

He has asked me to say that there is no intention to produce these gearboxes, the likely cost would be prohibitive, this is merely to illustrate the kind of thing possible with the available gears. If there are any questions I am sure he would be happy to answer.

Philip
contrate gear boxes.jpg

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Horsetan
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Horsetan » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:21 pm

Philip Hall wrote:Contrate/pinion/spur gearboxes: David Rogers of Ultrascale looks at our Forum from time to time as a guest and thought that the attached picture might be of interest in view of the present discussions, and asked me if I might post it on his behalf. It is of a couple of experimental gearboxes he made up a few years ago using his own gears, which are readily available.

He has asked me to say that there is no intention to produce these gearboxes, the likely cost would be prohibitive, this is merely to illustrate the kind of thing possible with the available gears. ...


Those are the same ones he showed me on a previous visit to the workshop.

Arguably, Ultrascale have produced something similar in the past, when they used to make motor bogies for certain diesels. They still have a few of them in their display cabinet.

The other possibility might be miniature crossed helicals, as used in Aijin HO and Slaters gearboxes.

billbedford wrote:....The problem with all spur gear arrangements is the volume they occupy. The gear of the smallest 10:1 pair with a fine 0.3 mod teeth would be in the region of 30mm diameter. The alternative would be two stages of 3.2:1 or three of 2.15:1. Probably OK if you wanted a portiscap type gear box, but too big for anything small.


Could we not make use of the small spurs available for 2mmFS engines, to help save space? Ultrascale make some, and of course supply the 2mm Association.
Last edited by Horsetan on Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Mike Garwood
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Mike Garwood » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:43 pm

As I remember Geoff Brewin had designed and marketed a series of gearboxes that included helical gears - and no these weren't cheap either. Are these still available? Still if you've not a suitable motor the gearbox becomes pretty redundant.

Mike

Philip Hall
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:13 pm

David Rogers has asked me to post a response to comment on the earlier post as follows...

"Horsetan is correct in that a set of crossed helical gears could be used in a gear box, in place of a worm and wheel set or contrate and pinion. However, these type of gears generate a large amount of axial thrust and to use them effectively would require a good set of bearings in the gear box and on the motor, if used as the primary stage in the design."

...and he has also enclosed some photographs showing these type of gear sets and a small gear box that uses them.

Philip

crossed_helicals.jpg
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ch2_1.jpg
ch2_1.jpg (67.44 KiB) Viewed 5392 times


2_1chgb.jpg
2_1chgb.jpg (65.65 KiB) Viewed 5392 times

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Horsetan
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Horsetan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:10 am

There has been at least one RTR bevel and spur gearbox apart from the RG4, and that is the one made by Märklin for some of its Wurtemberg Pacifics and the Br.45 2-10-2. The spare part number is 280560, and I have seen them for sale on eBay from time to time for just over a tenner.

Here's Marklin's own exploded diagram, showing the gearbox (with Faulhaber motor attached) as item no.21.

There are a couple of photos of the basic setup here (scroll down to the Faulhaber subheading), but they do not show how the bevel and spurs are arranged within the box.

Naturally I bought a sample to have a look at how they did it. Here's a photo I found of the innards:

Image

Mike Garwood wrote:As I remember Geoff Brewin had designed and marketed a series of gearboxes that included helical gears - and no these weren't cheap either. Are these still available? ...


Still available from Comet's owner Andrew Hartshorne. There was only the one: MGB1, teamed with a Maxon motor. The gears are supplied to Comet by ABC, I was told by Geoff prior to his death, so are practically the same as the ones used in ABC's 7mm gearboxes.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Philip Hall
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:51 pm

I have had a further email from David Rogers as follows...

Philip

"I did some digging around over the weekend and found a bit of development work I did around 2012 using the 3D printer I have to produce a bevel gear. The result was OK but not as good as I would have liked. I've attached three photos of this work and thought that it could be of interest to the current thread."
Bevel Gear.jpg

Bevel Gear 01.jpg
Bevel Gear 01.jpg (33.67 KiB) Viewed 5218 times

Bevel Gear 02.jpg
Bevel Gear 02.jpg (27.36 KiB) Viewed 5218 times

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Horsetan
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Horsetan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:44 pm

Philip: that looks a bit like the Gismozone bevel gears.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Philip Hall
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:58 pm

Ivan,

If you mean the pictures in the the last post, they may well look similar, but I don't know, I've never seen them. However, those pictures came from David direct and the drawing and printed samples are his, as he said in the note.

Philip

pete55
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby pete55 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:22 pm

Mike Garwood wrote:As I remember Geoff Brewin had designed and marketed a series of gearboxes that included helical gears - and no these weren't cheap either. Are these still available? Still if you've not a suitable motor the gearbox becomes pretty redundant.

Mike

Andrew has recently released another motor/gearbox combination using a Cannon motor.
Tony Wright extols its virtues here
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... try2754206
including a picture of it installed in a chassis.

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Horsetan
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Horsetan » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:36 am

Here's another view of the Faulhaber with Marklin's bevel and spur box:

marlkin_bevelmotor.jpg
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Horsetan
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Horsetan » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:20 am

.... and here's the sample which arrived today:

IMG_20170706_110256.jpg
Märklin bevel gearbox and Faulhaber motor


IMG_20170706_110330.jpg


IMG_20170706_110412.jpg


IMG_20170707_004304_1499384674687.jpg
Undo two screws to reveal quite a complex little drivetrain....
IMG_20170707_004304_1499384674687.jpg (67.6 KiB) Viewed 4632 times


IMG_20170707_004357_1499384702805.jpg
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Enigma
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Enigma » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:09 pm

I've got a set of bevel gears manufactured (or supplied) by North West Short Line. They have (or at least used to have?) a very extensive range of gears of many types.

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Horsetan
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Horsetan » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:43 pm

Enigma wrote:I've got a set of bevel gears manufactured (or supplied) by North West Short Line. They have (or at least used to have?) a very extensive range of gears of many types.


Didn't know NSWL made bevel gears. I have a couple of sets by Grandt Line.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Enigma
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Enigma » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:35 am

Horsetan wrote:
Enigma wrote:I've got a set of bevel gears manufactured (or supplied) by North West Short Line. They have (or at least used to have?) a very extensive range of gears of many types.


Didn't know NSWL made bevel gears. I have a couple of sets by Grandt Line.


Could be Grandt Line! It's a while since I've looked at them. I know they're from the US of A, I'll check later.

EDIT - it is Grandt Line! I also have a set of Ultrascale ones.

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Horsetan
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Horsetan » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:37 pm

Aha, thought so... :thumb
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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John Bateson
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby John Bateson » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:22 am

So, to cut to the original "Thoughts on Motors" (although bevel geared boxes is certainly another of my interests), does this group actually have a recommendation for replacements for the Mashima range.

The particular problem I have is the 12xx range, the 1220 & 1224 fit nicely in my models, the 14xx range which seems to be still available will require some redesign around the front and rear of the firebox which will reduce the strength there across the box - not a huge problem I know, except on the nearly completed models where some butchery is needed.

I would be happy to accept lower voltage motors for the Protocab system, but they are likely to need to redesign their control unit to suit (and make it smaller as a result - which may be good for some) but this will take them quite a while.

But is there an immediate replacement?

John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
http://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk

Philip Hall
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:24 pm

Talking to Brian at Branchlines it seems he has good stocks of many Mashima motors. His April 2017 list shows that 1420, 1424 and 1626 are out of stock. Therefore stocking up carefully for future building might be useful. The 10 series are more powerful than the 12s, I think, so that might help you, John.

For the future, I have a couple of the cheap Mitsumi motors which are slow revving but very smooth, I guess about the same size as a 14, so I will be looking at those at some stage.

Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Enigma
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Enigma » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:41 am

Philip Hall wrote: For the future, I have a couple of the cheap Mitsubishi motors which are slow revving but very smooth, Philip


Mitsubishi Phillip? Possibly Mitsumi? I know Mitsubishi probably have a range of electric motors for use in their hybrid cars - but they could be a bit big for 4mm models ;)

Philip Hall
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:50 pm

Quite right, Paul, I meant Mitsumi, but didn't notice the iPad had changed it!

Philip

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David Thorpe
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Re: Thoughts on Motors

Postby David Thorpe » Sat May 25, 2019 8:18 am

Quite an interesting discussion on replacement motors going on on RMWeb at the moment:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt-3564553

DT


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