wheel Puller

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Knuckles
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wheel Puller

Postby Knuckles » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:56 pm

Hello. Does anyone know where I can buy a Wheel Puller/Pusher from and if there are several then which is best etc?

Looking to use it with Alan Gibson wheels mainly as I've struggled enough bear handelling them.

Cheers in advance.
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Horsetan
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby Horsetan » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:08 pm

G.W. Models is probably your best bet.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Knuckles
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby Knuckles » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:30 pm

Many thanks.

I've had a look online and can't find a website so unsure how to get one.

I have found a number from a model rail directory so will give it a call soon.
Will let ye know if the number is still working when I do.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

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Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
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jon price
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby jon price » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:27 pm

Agree GW is probably best, but unless you use some kind of shim it is likely to just pop the metal tires off the plastic centers. I know by experience...

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Flymo748
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:49 pm

Another vote here for GW Models.

George advertises in each issue of the MRJ, you'll find his details there.

I've modified the jaws of the press slightly by grooving the and to ensure that it grips more positively on the flange of the wheel.

IMG_2198.JPG


It may not be necessary, but I found that it helped me as sometimes it can be a bit of a three-handed job to balance wheel and press and then tighten it all up.

HTH
Flymo
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dal-t
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby dal-t » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:55 pm

Or, if you can bear the external decor ('orrible orange?) it could just be worth perusing your local 'Halfords'. They do pullers in a variety of sizes, and last time I looked (well, it was several years ago*) they did seem to go small enough for our purposes, and very reasonably priced.

*To be fair to George, I did already have one of his for modelling, which I still use, but I was looking to replace a slightly larger version that had somehow walked from my car repair toolbox.
David L-T

David Knight
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby David Knight » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:10 am

Hey Knuckles,

FWIW, you can find the instructions for a DIY version in S4News 145 under the title "A Poor Man's Wheel Puller".

Cheers,

David

Knuckles
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby Knuckles » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:43 am

Many thanks to everyone's responces. :)

I must quote and comment though...

jon price wrote:Agree GW is probably best, but unless you use some kind of shim it is likely to just pop the metal tires off the plastic centers. I know by experience...


This is one reason I want a wheel puller....I pulled a few tires off them a few times using bear strength by accident. :(

They fixed ok with Cyno' but then you have to faff to bend out the buckle damage.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

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Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
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grovenor-2685
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:33 pm

IMHO the North West Shortline puller is better for dismantling wheelsets as it supports the wheelboss not the rim.
http://www.micromark.com/wheel-and-gear-remover,9767.html
But it won't work on an assembled chassis so you need to drop the wheelsets out.
Regards

junctionmad
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby junctionmad » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:20 pm


Knuckles
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby Knuckles » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:15 pm

Does anyone know an alternative way to get a G W Models wheel puller? I say alternative because I've tried several times but can't seem to get an answer. Granted I may be calling at a bad time.

I found the number here

http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/suppliers/40399-Gw_Models

although I'm wandering if it is the same number or out dated.

I'd like to buy this particular wheel puller as you have all recommended it and I haven't a clue what else I could buy that I would be sure fits.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

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grovenor-2685
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:31 pm

although I'm wandering if it is the same number or out dated.

That is identical to the one given in his latest advertisement (MRJ 244) so should be correct, probably just the wrong time.

As noted above the GW puller acts on the tyres so will pull them off if given a chance. one way to avoid this would be to make a plate to fit behind the wheel and transfer the forces to the boss, as with the NWSL puller though this is not going to work with the wheelset in the chassis.
Regards

Knuckles
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby Knuckles » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:47 pm

Ok many thanks, I'll keep trying at different times then.


How would you suggest doing a roll test to see things are free and square before putting the gearbox in if the wheel puller won't do it?

I have got by all these years by sheer brute force using my hands but as you know that often pulls tyres off and buckles wheels! I've managed to straighten them but I'm trying to find a better way.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
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grovenor-2685
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:01 pm

How would you suggest doing a roll test to see things are free and square before putting the gearbox in if the wheel puller won't do it?


1. Design the chassis so the wheelsets drop out.
or
2. Get a set of Romford/Markits wheels just for the testing so you only fit the final wheels once.

regards

Knuckles
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby Knuckles » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:15 pm

Ok, #1 doesn't apply to many kits and #2 I used to do but since using Gibson wheels it is a bit awkward.

Unless I am mistaken Markits don't do P4 wheels or axles so I'm unsure they would be long enough.

Ok no worries. I'll figure a way.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
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grovenor-2685
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:33 pm

#1 doesn't apply to many kits and #2 I used to do but since using Gibson wheels it is a bit awkward.

It applies to all the etched kit chassis I have, and all the recent rtr I have for conversion.

IMHO, I would suggest you design your chassis in two parts, a frame with inverted U shape slots for the bearings and a keeper which will trap the bearings and axles in place, I see this as desirable for 00 and essential for P4.
Regards

Knuckles
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby Knuckles » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:21 pm

I know the concept and have thought on it before. I may indeed venture there at some point.

All the etched kits I have built have always so far without exception been the usual hole surrounded by metal. You got more experience though so no doubt have built a billion more and know which designs are better, I just haven't actually built one with the frame split in this way yet.

My question about your Markits method was in reference to P4 frames though. As far as I know Gibson wheels and axles are only 00 so would you even be able to get the wheels in there to test set up? 00 frames are usually around 12mm's wide and P4 ones 16mm's or less, 00 BtoB is usually 14.5mm's so I'm not sure how this would work. If I am misinterpreting what you say no worries.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
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grovenor-2685
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:42 pm

no doubt have built a billion more and know which designs are better,
I may well not have built as many :) , but I have got plenty waiting here in the "To do" pile. Etched kits such as Comet may come with holes but also have rectangular cut outs marked ready for removal to fit proper hornblocks (unless the kits pre-date the 'improvements').

My Markits suggestion was made thinking of your 00 frames, which I assumed, perhaps wrongly, were the ones you were pulling the wheels off.
You can get EM axles for Markits but they may still be a bit short for a P4 frame depending how wide you make it. Gibson do P4 wheelsets of course but you don't have the screw on feature hence the problem you have.
Regards
PS Liked the videos, well done.

dal-t
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby dal-t » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:48 pm

I'm with Keith on the real solution to this problem, because I do remember (with a shudder of horror) the days when kits didn't allow you to drop the wheels - but then the chassis was either a solid lump of whitemetal (with (often non-) parallel holes drilled for the axles), or a fold-up brass channel that gave no choice of back-to-back and had wheel centres carefully selected to avoid any co-incidence with the spacing of the coupling rods. But for the moment, is the concern with the trueness of the wheelsets, or the squareness of the chassis bearings, or both? It's relatively easy to check these separately. The wheelsets (with or without final gear wheel, depending on the design of the gearbox) can be assembled out of the chassis and simply run across the desk to check concentricity; true one wheel then has to be removed for final mounting, but the wheelpuller (modified if preferred) can be used to take it off, and it can be pressed back on square in a soft-jawed vice (against a suitable b-t-b gauge). The bearings can be tested by inserting extended lengths of 1/8" brass rod in place of the axles - the distance between them can then be measured each side for squareness, and if need be any 'waddling' can be found by running the rods on knife-edges (traditionally razor-blades set in plasticene, but I don't think this quite works with modern multi-edge blades). And I know this - well, by coping with old one-piece chassis, of course!
David L-T

Knuckles
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby Knuckles » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:45 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
no doubt have built a billion more and know which designs are better,
I may well not have built as many :) , but I have got plenty waiting here in the "To do" pile. Etched kits such as Comet may come with holes but also have rectangular cut outs marked ready for removal to fit proper hornblocks (unless the kits pre-date the 'improvements').

My Markits suggestion was made thinking of your 00 frames, which I assumed, perhaps wrongly, were the ones you were pulling the wheels off.
You can get EM axles for Markits but they may still be a bit short for a P4 frame depending how wide you make it. Gibson do P4 wheelsets of course but you don't have the screw on feature hence the problem you have.
Regards
PS Liked the videos, well done.



"To do" pile
The infamous 'Maturing Cabinet!' I got quite a pantry full too.

rectangular cut outs marked ready for removal to fit proper hornblocks


I've designed the 3D printed chassis with these vertical 'half etched' lines and also a 1mm cut out at the top so it can easily drop out. I have not built one of these with sprung chassis yet however, I just added that design in as I know it to be desirable. I indeed found it useful on the SE Finecast E2 chassis I built with Gibson coil spring hornblocks.

My Markits suggestion was made thinking of your 00 frames, which I assumed, perhaps wrongly, were the ones you were pulling the wheels off.


No worries. It in truth is a bit of both. As I'm making video's I don't want to give duff advice because so far I have only ham fisted my way through with Gibson wheels so far (with success!) but sometimes I have to then repair a damage. I'd rather do things in a way that conforms better to the modelling world's collective idea of 'correct' but if not I'll just make it clear what I'm doing isn't the best way and why and they can go from there.

It applies to the 00 and P4 stuff as I'm after a long term solution to a better method. I can put wheels on and pull them off the axles with my hands and with more control using a pair of pliers no problem but I'd like a better way of doing it with the wheels already in the chassis because it is a fiddle and then you often end up pulling tyres off. Powerbond 806 to the rescue!

Many thanks for your support and advice. Glad you like the videos too. These are similar in concept and a rough idea to my suggestion on the DVD thread for Society tutorials.




dal-t wrote:I'm with Keith on the real solution to this problem, because I do remember (with a shudder of horror) the days when kits didn't allow you to drop the wheels - but then the chassis was either a solid lump of whitemetal (with (often non-) parallel holes drilled for the axles), or a fold-up brass channel that gave no choice of back-to-back and had wheel centres carefully selected to avoid any co-incidence with the spacing of the coupling rods. But for the moment, is the concern with the trueness of the wheelsets, or the squareness of the chassis bearings, or both? It's relatively easy to check these separately. The wheelsets (with or without final gear wheel, depending on the design of the gearbox) can be assembled out of the chassis and simply run across the desk to check concentricity; true one wheel then has to be removed for final mounting, but the wheelpuller (modified if preferred) can be used to take it off, and it can be pressed back on square in a soft-jawed vice (against a suitable b-t-b gauge). The bearings can be tested by inserting extended lengths of 1/8" brass rod in place of the axles - the distance between them can then be measured each side for squareness, and if need be any 'waddling' can be found by running the rods on knife-edges (traditionally razor-blades set in plasticene, but I don't think this quite works with modern multi-edge blades). And I know this - well, by coping with old one-piece chassis, of course!



Many thanks for this also.

I haven't much to say yet as it is a lot to digest but rest assured I'm chewing. :thumb


EDIT: Eating...

But for the moment, is the concern with the trueness of the wheelsets, or the squareness of the chassis bearings, or both?

More a mixture but also when setting gearboxes up sometimes I end up removing it or putting it back a few times until I'm happy.

but the wheelpuller (modified if preferred) can be used to take it off, and it can be pressed back on square in a soft-jawed vice (against a suitable b-t-b gauge).


Ahh! Vice press, good ad..er, vice.
I haven't managed to get a hold of G W Models yet but once I do what modification have you in mind? I understand the advice of the backing having a bit of scrap etch or whatever to spread the weight and reduce chances of the tyres coming off but do you mean that or another idea?

The bearings can be tested by inserting extended lengths of 1/8" brass rod in place of the axles - the distance between them can then be measured each side for squareness, and if need be any 'waddling' can be found by running the rods on knife-edges


Makes sense.

I never had the misfortune of working with a cast whitemetal block for a chassis thankfully. Tony Wright in Right Track DVD 1 says "they are good pounded and used for ballast - nothing more." :D
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

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Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
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dal-t
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby dal-t » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:36 pm

Knuckles wrote:I haven't managed to get a hold of G W Models yet but once I do what modification have you in mind? I understand the advice of the backing having a bit of scrap etch or whatever to spread the weight and reduce chances of the tyres coming off but do you mean that ...


Yes. I haven't personally pulled the tyre off a Gibson wheel (though I've mangled the centres of a couple) but I do see the sense of transferring the point of pull and I'll try the mod next time i'm using my puller.
David L-T

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grovenor-2685
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:19 pm

I had in mind a piece of plate rather more robust than scrap etch, something that won't bend under the required pressure.
The NWSL press comes with a 1/16th" steel plate containing a vee notch which you can slide over the axle, this in turn is supported by the aluminium frame of the puller, but would probably be OK held in a GW puller for the forces needed to remove an AG wheel, a piece of 1mm brass sheet may be enough.
Regards

Knuckles
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby Knuckles » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:23 pm

Hmm ok. Would you say an NWSL puller is more likely a better purchase then or rather just better in certain contexts?
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
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grovenor-2685
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:47 pm

Certain contexts, see http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=4643&p=43604#p42927
It works for other things to, like gears, I have used mine quite a lot.
And I have never felt the need for a GW one.
Regards

polybear
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Re: wheel Puller

Postby polybear » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:40 pm

On RMWeb recently Tony Wright mentioned that Markits do sell P4 axles if you ask, though not P4 profile wheels. It seems that there are some modellers happily using Markits 00/EM wheels & P4 axles for 18.83, modifying flangeways etc. to suit. Not that I'm suggesting such a thing, you understand.....

HTH
Brian


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