P4 wheels and suitable 'P4-able' kits - Directory

[Knuckles]

This is going to sound silly but I've spent hours looking for suitable 4mm locomotives that I might have a go at building straight to P4.

I've had a damn hard job trying to find information regarding what kits are suitable, could anyone please advise a set of companies that you know do good kits, that are suitable for an almost beginner?
I've done 1 working loco kit but that was in 00, other than that I've only soldered up a few tender kits.

I'm also struggeling badly finding where to buy P4 wheels from. Exactoscale I'm duobting at the moment as (unless things have rerailed) things seem slow, and other places I haven't a clue, I've spent a good while looking but unsure.

One other thing I find really difficult is many companies (railway modelling in general) don't have a website you can purchase directly from (unlike Caley Coaches, DJH etc), rather you get a PDF catalouge with no pictures and have to do the old mail order style and to a degree guess what your buying, or maybe the list is online but it's just that, a list which to a n00b or relative newcomer to kit building (such as myself), is incredably off putting, some companies don't even have a website so I'll probably never use them, I like to 'see' what I'm buying.

If you could help though that'd be great, maybe other need the info also.

[Tim V]

I'd suggest a visit to Scaleforum (hint hint) would be useful.

Having said that I cannot think of a "kit" that would fulfill your needs. I personally would put a chassis from one maker (say Comet) under a body from another maker (say Bachman/Hornby) as my most "easy" option. Plenty of tips about that at Scaleforum.

Also, it's a bit of a nonsense building a loco coz it's easy to build. Surely, you should look at what locos you will need than look at what is available. The incentive is then to build it - coz you need it

[Brinkly]

Hi Knuckels,

I can't really help on the kit front, although I would, where possible, use Ultrascale wheels for my locomotives and stock. They are much more expensive than Alan Gibson wheels, but I find them a better product. My Gibson wheels, which have steel tyres, have rusted, whereas Ultrascale use Nickel Silver.

Lots of other P4ers will use Gibson, I just don't get on with them. Perhaps I've just been unlucky, but I would pay the extra and go for Ultrascale myself.

Regards,

Nick

http://www.ultrascale.com/

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/

[Knuckles]

Thanks for info, I looked for alan Gibson but couldn't find the P4 wheels, strange.

Ultrascale take 4 blooming months to arrive, which isn't really much use for some things! I had their Hymek wheels and liked them, but I also trialed some of their wagon wheels and didn't like them. Very thick tires, horrid plastic bush thingies and they bend out of alignment easy, mine did anyway. For wagon wheels I like S4 stores and Exactoscale with pin point axles (brought in person).

Surely, you should look at what locos you will need than look at what is available. The incentive is then to build it - coz you need it

That is my motivation, I know what I need, it's just all the other problems listed!

[Tim V]

Thanks for info, I looked for alan Gibson but couldn't find the P4 wheels, strange.

Odd, when I went to the 4mm section of http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/ I found the P4 wheels.

And I get on fine with Gibson wheels, they are much better than they used to be.

[Knuckles]

Yeah I meant before when I was looking for the wheels, before I seen the link. I was looking at what Google would throw me.

Thing is I'm allergic to this method of buying, not comfortable with it at all. I can't see what I'm buying so don't know for sure weather it's suitable or if I like it, and it would require me spending an hour or so writing and modyfying codes. Call me idle but modern internet purchase methods are all I've known. If you can clearly see what it is your buying, click on it and go to the check out then great, if not it's always a nightmare for me.

Are Ultrascale, Exactoscale and Alan the only three companies that do P4 wheels?

EDIT: Just thought of a quicky, do you know where I can get those full depth timbers and sleepers? Spent ages looking for those too (not today though)

There's several loco's I need to build to do what I have in mind, and a couple I'dm just like to do because I like them. Guss we all do that sometimes!

[grovenor-2685]

Yeah I meant before when I was looking for the wheels, before I seen the link. I was looking at what Google would throw me.

A good place to start looking is the links page of this website, the suppliers listed there were chosen because they produce items useful for P4 modellers.

Thing is I'm allergic to this method of buying, not comfortable with it at all. I can't see what I'm buying so don't know for sure weather it's suitable or if I like it, and it would require me spending an hour or so writing and modyfying codes.

When we used to host Alan Gibson's site I made an effort to provide photos and illustrations wherever possible as I couldn't agree with you more. The new owners decided to do the website their way and found illustrations etc took to much time and effort. I still have all the pictures, here is a set of wheels (with Bill Bedford rods).

jinty-1.jpg

Are Ultrascale, Exactoscale and Alan the only three companies that do P4 wheels?

So far as steam loco wheels go, there are these 3 plus Bill Bedford has started a new range, very limited so far and few of us have any experience of them yet. The other possible source is eBay, always worth keeping a lookout for P4 wheels on there, the prices are usually reasonable unlike most other things. Wheels from suppliers now gone can be found that way, Studiolith, Sharman wheels and Maygib turn up from time to time.

Generally Alan Gibson has the largest range of the current suppliers and their prices are reasonable and supply quick, service good, you do need to order by email or phone however. As Tim says the wheels are perfectly useable.

EDIT: Just thought of a quicky, do you know where I can get those full depth timbers and sleepers? Spent ages looking for those too (not today though)

Exactoscale/P4 Track Co. definitely, C&L not sure but both have websites, with lists (but the Exactoscale site does have lots of instructions you can download which are mostly illustrated.

There's several loco's I need to build to do what I have in mind, and a couple I'dm just like to do because I like them. Guss we all do that sometimes!

If you want to start with a small loco, have a look at the High Level site, his kits are definitely P4 suitable. To put a kit chassis under an RTR body then High Level, Comet and Bill Bedford all have suitable chassis designed with this in mind. Comet come for 00 as default but he supplies alternative spacers for P4.
Hope this helps
Keith

[Knuckles]

Hi Keith, that is good, thankyou. Also nice to know I'm not the only one who finds certain methods awkward. I also think it is a great shame because I wander how many potential sales these companies are loosing due to their set up. I know myself when I'm browsing if I can't find/see/order what I need quickely and without fuss I 90% of the time look elsewhere.

Are Exactoscale up and running properly or are they still on a super go slow? I ask because I had trouble geting that point blade a while back and then months later I ordered a few axles and stuff from 51L, they came bar one pack with written in pen, "might take a while" or words to that effect, still none ready apparently. I emailed 51L today.

" I chased them on Monday, and was told the axles were in stock, but they still haven't arrived here. As far as I know, ordinary mail order is back to "normal", whatever normal might be. Andrew Hartshorne"

Note: I'm not angry with anyone, don't want to come across whingy. I do find though that finding and buying what I need when kit building is the hardest thing ever in terms of online perchases. A lack of knowledge and experience plays a part definetly.

[David Thorpe]

Well, no point worrying about your wheels until you've decided on your loco. I'd suggest that you start with something simple, eg an 0-6-0. I'm just finishing an Alan Gibson J15 0-6-0 which has gone together very nicely though I discarded the Gibson hornblocks in faviourt of CSBs (my first effort at those). That kit came with Gibson wheels (which were quite OK) though I had to source motor and gearbox seperately (from High level kits, to be precise).

Or just go straight to High level for one of their 0-6-0T industrial kits, though I'd steer clear of the very smallest ones if I was you. Advantage is that you get an excellent kit and can source gearbox and motor from them as well, leaving you to get only the wheels seperately. As Tim says, Gibson wheels are usually fine, much cheaper than Ultrascale and no waiting list.

There are lots of other manufacturers, most good. If you were able to give an indication of the type of loco you require, I'm sure you'd get some more suggestions.

Once you've got your loco, you can decide on your wheels. The kit instructions should tell you what size wheels you need, and may even make recommendations. First, find out who makes the right ones. It is highly likely that Gibson will, and quite probably Ultrascale. I've never used the latter as I'm not prepared to pay the premium for them and won't tolerate the time you have to wait, so I always use Gibson, though back in the days of yore I liked Sharmans (no longer available). For motor and gearbox, once again High Level should come up trumps.

Finally, I'd echo another of tim's suggestions. If you want to see, and chat, before you buy, there are two excellent opportunities coming up - ExpoEM North on 15th/16th September in Manchester and Scaleforum 2012 on 29th/30th September in Leatherhead. Both will have a truly excellent selection of traders who will be more than happy to show off their wares and discuss your requirements with you before taking your money. If you have a look at both the Scalefour Soc website and the EMGS website you'll see lists of the traders that will be attending these shows.

DT

[Knuckles]

Thanks DaveyTee, I'll be at Leatherhead on Sunday all being well. There's many loco's I'll need. One is LBSCR E2 tank, SE Finecast do one but it's one of their mega oldies with white metal chassis from what I cantell-don't fancy that!

A Furness Railway K2 - Dragon Models are making one but Ive been in contact with them since 2010 and progress is slow.

Some of the others I know I can sort and ultimately (thinking future here) I'd like a selection from the LNWR, L&Y and MR, the latter two seem harder to scource.

[Armchair Modeller]

With loco driving wheels, it is not just the diameter that is important - the crankpin throw is important too. It will either look wrong or the coupling rods may even hit the underside of the footplate if you get the wrong ones.

It is quite possible that only one supplier will have the right wheels for whatever loco kit you choose, even though several have what seems to be the right diameter available. Apart from coach and wagon wheels, there is often really not a lot of choice.

[Knuckles]

Crank throw. Great, somethkng else I need to be somehow sure of now! Ok, thanks for the warning, better safe than sorry.

An engine on my 'weeli weeli wont' lisf is a 4-6-2 Bowen Cooke superheater tank. Looks abig like an A5 but distknctly different, finding one however is like finding for a flea's unmentionables! I heard Milholmn Models or somethinv did a kit but cant find it. A Bowen Cooke is an engine I'd jump at.

Edit: sorry for all these typing errors, Im using a touch screen phone and editing is a pain sometimes

[David Thorpe]

I'd like a selection from the LNWR...........

If you haven't already done so, check out London Road Models.

DT

[Andy W]

I'd be careful about the Bowen Cooke as a first loco for several reasons. Firstly it will need a lot of work to get it looking good - and working well - simply because it's a vintage kit. i.e. whitemetal and has no (if I remember correctly) etched chassis. Also a 4-6-2T will be a challenge. We all know, and respect, your appetite for a challenge - but I would put the 4-6-2T on your future project list.

I'd start with a simpler wheelbase - no bogies or trailing axles - an 0-4-0T or 0-6-0T inside cylinder with straight sided tanks. Also if you get one from a respected contemporary manufacturer like High Level or London Road Models you can be assured that the kit will fit and you won't be spending construction time fettling and working around faults.

The problem when you start is that you don't know what's a builder error (i.e. your cock-up) and what's a bad piece of design. By building a current kit you can discuss problems with the manufacturers or on here. Who do you call when you run into difficulty with a Millholme kit? No one is there.

I'd also avoid a tender loco - mainly because in effect you're building two vehicles, and you want to get a finished, working loco asap.

The other factor you've touched on are the wheels. Make sure wheels for your chosen prototype are on the market before you buy the kit. Things are less certain since he demise of Sharman wheels so sourcing the round things prior to building is a priority.

Loco building is a real challenge - but fun. Give yourself as easy a ride as you can - then move on to the tricky stuff later.

[David Thorpe]

I know that you want to buy and build a kit, but all that's going to take you some considerable time. If you want something virtually straight away that will run on your P4 track with your P4 stock, you could consider a diesel. I bought a Bachmann Class 24 and a Gibson wheel conversion set, downloaded Keith Norgrove's excellent insructions, and in less than an evening had a loco that ran immaculately. Total cost, including postage, was £63. Doing something like that would enable you to get something running at once while you proceed with your kit build.

DT

[Knuckles]

To Ealing; that's an awful lot of good advice, I'm mulling over it. If I do something simple it would still need to be in with the general plan though, otherwise it would be a bit of a money/time waste.

To DaveyTee; I know what your saying, yet I'm not in a rush to get things done or running. I can't really run anything because I don't have a layout yet, just a few bits of flexi and a couple points. The loft is still being restored/sorted.

I do have a working Class 35 that I managed to convert in another thread.

Because of the loft nearly all I'm doing in terms of railway modelling is to pass the time until I can properly run something on a layout, so in essence I'm trying to model towards what will run, and so I kind of mix up what I'm doing. I know building a brass kit isn't a quick rush job as I have done a few, just not many, and only one working loco (that doesn't work brilliantly). With this in mind I don't mind doing something that will take a fair amount of time to do, it's almost half the point!

I'm still unsure on period or company/s though. I seem to like almost everything for different reasons, but what I have in mind would allow me to run more than one type. it's just deciding and getting it all together to know what to build.

[Knuckles]

Does anyone have an opinion on Falcon Brassworks as loco' kits suitable for P4 go?
I read their website and had a look and their list is quite big, only the company isn't fully operational at the moment.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Knuckles,

I though I'd sit back and wait for someone else to start the replies regarding Falcon Brass, but I can wait no longer.

Falcon Brass are the former Jidenco range, presumably rebranded to "relaunch" the product. Jidenco were fairly early players in the etched kit market, with a very wide range, including wagons, vans, etc. It was that wide range that is the give away, as they were put into production without much (if any) product testing. They became regarded as scratch builders aids as, in general, they weren't at all easy to build, contained dimensional errors, etc. It is said that the original owner had the artwork drawn by someone with artistic drawing qualifications, but no modelling knowledge.

When they became Falcon Brass, the new owner had plans to upgrade them, but it appears that he wasn't able to make much progress with this.They have now changed hands again. It's possible that the new owners have similar plans, but unless they are thoroughly looked at and revised, they should still be regarded with caution, especially from a first time kit aspect. I would only consider having a go at one where another kit for a particular model doesn't already exist. Even then I would approach it with caution and certainly not until I had succesfully satisfactorily built at least a couple of other etched loco kits.

I know you like a challenge, but there are limits.

Jol

[David Thorpe]

Knuckles, I think you'll find that a lot of people will echo Jol's opinions on the Falcon/Jidenco range.

A few post ago I mentioned the London Road Models range, which I thought might be appropriate for you because they offer a wide range of LNWR, L&YR, and MR kits, and also because they happen to be generally well thought of as good kits. Is there any reason why they don't appeal? You'll find them at http://www.scalefour.org/londonroad/ . They'll also be at Scaleforum.

DT

[Knuckles]

Fair enough, I'll let the Falcon fly then.

Many of the London Road example appeal, I'm just scouting about to see what's available. MR locomotives seem to be few all over.

[Andy W]

If you're modelling post 1924 then the LRM Jinty might be a good starting point. Plenty of reference; wheels available and several gearbox/motor combinations to fit. Talk to John or Jol at S4rum and ask their advice.

[Terry Bendall]

Are Exactoscale up and running properly or are they still on a super go slow?

I believe that there are still some problems with the supply of Exactoscale products. At the present time we are hoping that they will be at Scaleforum. Andrew Jukes is a member of this forum and may want to comment. Exactoscale track components are available from Wizard Models and they seem to have a good stock of these, but I don't know if Wizard carry the Exactoscale wheel range.

If you want something virtually straight away that will run on your P4 track with your P4 stock, you could consider a diesel.

Don't forget that at Scaleforum the stores will have available the first R-T-R P4 Loco ever sold. These will be Bachmann class 25s with Ultrascale wheels fitted. Stocks will be very limited so it will be first come, first served. Of course this will mean that you don't get the fun of converting thre lcoc yourself!

If you want to see, and chat, before you buy, there are two excellent opportunities coming up - ExpoEM North on 15th/16th September in Manchester and Scaleforum 2012 on 29th/30th September in Leatherhead. Both will have a truly excellent selection of traders who will be more than happy to show off their wares and discuss your requirements with you before taking your money.

The currect trader count for Scaleforum is 49. Most people should be able to get whatever they want in the way of modelling bits and pieces at the show, although there will probably be some things that are missing. The other advantage of going to a show is that you can look at the products, collect price lists and then order at a later date.

Terry Bendall

[Knuckles]

Thanks for the info Terry. I'll be at Scaleforum on a Sunday. Really looking forward to it.

RTR P4 loco? Wow, now that really is a first, a breakthrough I might add. I still doubt it'll become mainstream but you never know.

[doktorstamp]

Don't forget that at Scaleforum the stores will have available the first R-T-R P4 Loco ever sold. These will be Bachmann class 25s with Ultrascale wheels fitted. Stocks will be very limited so it will be first come, first served. Of course this will mean that you don't get the fun of converting the loco yourself!

Having looked at the stores to see if I could pre-order one of these diesels, I find they are not on the list. I will be there on the Saturday, and quite possibly Sunday too.

I also endorse Knuckles view that all too often the lists are a; not illustrated, (a picture is worth a thousand words); and b; description is minimalist, as if they were attempting to save on ink cartridges. I very much suspect that were suppliers to illustrate and properly describe their products, sales would increase as a result of some time and effort with purchasers certain of what they needed.

regards

Nigel

[grovenor-2685]

I also endorse Knuckles view that all too often the lists are a; not illustrated,

i hope you are not applying this criticism to our stores list? Just click on the little camera icons.
Regards
Keith