Correct wire for CSB and chassis springs

[ben mason]

I have just recently been enjoying the benefits of using continuous springs in my loco's and rolling stock.
Can anyone tell me what is the best gauge of wire to use, presumably steel piano wire, for Bill Bedford
(and others') underframes before I go ahead and order the wrong one!

[John Bateson]

I don't think there is one answer, if you care to experiment with different sizes these guitar strings are very cheap.

Try Ernie Ball at Strings Direct.
http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings-c1/electric-guitar-single-strings-c534/ernie-ball-ernie-ball-1012-plain-steel-single-string-012-p6508/s6550

And of course if you are fortunate to have a local music shop ...


John

[Russ Elliott]

0.010", 0.011", 0.012" and 0.013" diameters are the most common CSB usages in 4mm scale. (Guitar string retailers call these '10 gauge', '11 gauge', '12 gauge' etc.)

Cantilever (non-CSB) springs will usually need to be considerably thicker.

[Alan Turner]

I have just recently been enjoying the benefits of using continuous springs in my loco's and rolling stock.
Can anyone tell me what is the best gauge of wire to use, presumably steel piano wire, for Bill Bedford
(and others') underframes before I go ahead and order the wrong one!

It is what ever size that gives you the required deflection in your chassis with your un-sprung weight of locomotive.

Then I suggest you buy proper guitar strings of the required size.

regards

Alan

[billbedford]

There is no 'wrong' gauge of wire to use. You can alway just the weight of the loco to give the right ride height.

[Le Corbusier]

There is no 'wrong' gauge of wire to use. You can alway just the weight of the loco to give the right ride height.

I am also new to CSBs and trying to get my head around issues of weight. Adjusting the weight might be the answer. My question is to what extent you need to take account of eccentric loadings ... such as pewter loco crews/motor position/battery if radio controlled etc. Is it a case of finding the most suitable plot for your wheel base and then adding additional ballast locally to ensure a proportional distribution? Would this be done by eye by assessing both ride height in relation to wire thickness and horizontality in relation to distribution - or is this over complicating/ over simplifying things?

Regards

Tim

[Russ Elliott]

Is it a case of finding the most suitable plot for your wheel base and then adding additional ballast locally to ensure a proportional distribution?

Yes.

Would this be done by eye by assessing both ride height in relation to wire thickness and horizontality in relation to distribution - or is this over complicating/ over simplifying things?

Essentially, yes. It helps to have a buffer height gauge, preferably double-ended (see Snooze 109, for example) and something to help in assessing balance.

[Le Corbusier]

Is it a case of finding the most suitable plot for your wheel base and then adding additional ballast locally to ensure a proportional distribution?

Yes.

Would this be done by eye by assessing both ride height in relation to wire thickness and horizontality in relation to distribution - or is this over complicating/ over simplifying things?

Essentially, yes. It helps to have a buffer height gauge, preferably double-ended (see Snooze 109, for example) and something to help in assessing balance.

Thanks for the link ... perfect.

Regards

Tim

[Will L]

I have just recently been enjoying the benefits of using continuous springs in my loco's and rolling stock.
Can anyone tell me what is the best gauge of wire to use, presumably steel piano wire, for Bill Bedford
(and others') underframes before I go ahead and order the wrong one!

No need to guess or estimate any of this. Measure where the fulcrum points are, to the nearest 0.5mm, then use Alan or my spread sheet and plug in the wheel base and the fulcrum positions. Either speed sheet will then tell you where the locos centre of gravity (CofG) should be. Ballast the body so the CofG us in the right place and the loco will sit level. These spreadsheets will also allow you to enter the true weight of the loco and you can see what size of wire giets you closest to the correct amount of deflection (0.5mm again)so the buffers will be the right hight. And yes the best source is guitar strings.

To find the spread sheets follow the link under my signature, look in the second post down for the heading The CSB Spreadsheets

[Enigma]

Can I presume that the gauge of wire needed for a Cotswold/Sutherland/Nucast/Branchlines cast white metal 16xx pannier tank will be a lot heavier than that required for a Bachmann 57xx body? I have the 'new' SEFC/Branchlines etched NS chassis for my 16xx and a High Level etched NS chassis (2 in fact!) for my 57xx(s), both feature the facility to be built with CSB. As I've said elsewhere on the forum, I've only ever previously used compensation when building chassis so my venturing into possible CSB is a whole new adventure. Lots of reading will be required I'm sure! Especially of Will's spreadsheets etc.

My mate (a lapsed P4 modeller, now degenerated into OO sadly) plays guitar so obtaining the wire may not be a problem.

[allanferguson]

Save your mate the trouble.

http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings- ... infscr6544

You need plain, not wound, strings.

Other suppliers are available!

Allan F

[Enigma]

Save your mate the trouble.

http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings- ... infscr6544

You need plain, not wound, strings.

Other suppliers are available!

Allan F

Thanks for the link. We do have a couple of guitar selling shops in the locality so I may be OK.

[Will L]

Can I presume that the gauge of wire needed for a Cotswold/Sutherland/Nucast/Branchlines cast white metal 16xx pannier tank will be a lot heavier than that required for a Bachmann 57xx body? ...

If you don't add any additional weight to the Bachman body that is very likely to be true, but as your 57xx will be improved by a bit of added weight it will depend on how much you put in.

[Enigma]

Can I presume that the gauge of wire needed for a Cotswold/Sutherland/Nucast/Branchlines cast white metal 16xx pannier tank will be a lot heavier than that required for a Bachmann 57xx body? ...

If you don't add any additional weight to the Bachman body that is very likely to be true, but as your 57xx will be improved by a bit of added weight it will depend on how much you put in.

A lot of thinking seems to be involved with CSB.

My brain hurts..................

Can't help thinking that compensation will be a lot easier........................ I know I can get that to work 'cos I've done it before. Lots of times.

But I do like the idea of a challenge. Will there be anyone at S4North that will be able to give me an idiot's guide to CSB?

[Paul Willis]

Can't help thinking that compensation will be a lot easier........................ I know I can get that to work 'cos I've done it before. Lots of times.

But I do like the idea of a challenge. Will there be anyone at S4North that will be able to give me an idiot's guide to CSB?

I'd put money on it that Will will be there at some point over the weekend, and he is one of the gurus on CSBs.

However if the planets don't coincide, I'll be on the "Starting in P4" demonstration, and will happily chat about CSBs. I'm a big fan of them, and cab bring along some locomotives to examine and pull apart.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman

[Enigma]

Thanks Paul. Between you and Steve Duckworth I should be able to sort myself out!

[Will L]

.. Will there be anyone at S4North that will be able to give me an idiot's guide to CSB?

I'd put money on it that Will will be there at some point over the weekend, and he is one of the gurus on CSBs....

Probably Sunday. If anybody wants a chat I suggest they let whoever is on the society stand know that they would like a word.

[Highpeak]

I am making the trip from the US to Scalefour North and will be there both days. I would be very interested in any sort of seminar or discussion of CSBs, I am sure I'd learn more from half an hour of that than any amount of reading on here, useful though that is.

[Will L]

I have a related question, I hope that's okay.

For an 0-6-0, what kind of target weight/wire should one aim for?

Good question, by conversion I aim at 100 gram per driving axle, although 50 gm an axle ought to ride well enough on the track. How much you actually need will tend to depend on how long and heavy your trains are and how steep your hills.

[Paul Willis]

I am making the trip from the US to Scalefour North and will be there both days. I would be very interested in any sort of seminar or discussion of CSBs, I am sure I'd learn more from half an hour of that than any amount of reading on here, useful though that is.

Hi Neville,

I don't believe there is anything specifically in the form of a seminar on CSBs.

However you may have read here WillL should be at the show on Sunday, and I'm sure you can pick his brain on whatever is necessary. Alternatively, I'll be on the "Starting in P4" demonstration, and I'll have a couple of CSBed locomotives with me which I'm happy to dissect and show the tricks and workings of. You may be surprised how straightforward it is!

Just don't ask me about any of the maths behind those fearsome spreadsheets! I put the numbers in and look at the numbers which come out, and that's it...

Cheers
Flymo

[billbedford]

I have a related question, I hope that's okay.

For an 0-6-0, what kind of target weight/wire should one aim for?

The weight should be adjusted so your loco will just pull the biggest train that you are likely to run. 120 gms would be fine for a shunting plank where the trains were always less that about 20 wagons or five coaches.

[Highpeak]

>I don't believe there is anything specifically in the form of a seminar on CSBs.

I probably didn't word that especially well. I was thinking more if there were people attending on the same day with the same interest in CSBs whether anything could be coordinated to avoid Will having to go over the same material multiple times.

[essdee]

Hi Neville,

Having been entrusted with the steam loco building demo at Scalefour North, and being a relatively recent convert to CSB, I too will have CSB chassis on display and available for inspection and questions over both days - so please do pop along for a natter when you have talked with the experts (ends of day get quieter for longer discussions...!).

Enjoy your trip and the show!

Best wishes,

Steve

[Enigma]

>I don't believe there is anything specifically in the form of a seminar on CSBs.

I probably didn't word that especially well. I was thinking more if there were people attending on the same day with the same interest in CSBs whether anything could be coordinated to avoid Will having to go over the same material multiple times.

I'll be there both days so if Paul, Steve and Will can get it together I'm interested. I would be happy to meet with you Highpeak. I'm sure Flymo Paul or Essdee Steve will point me out!