Which glue or solvent?

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David B
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Which glue or solvent?

Postby David B » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:12 am

I am making a vehicle whose parts are made from cast resin. Unfortunately, I am having trouble getting the bits to stick together!!

So far, I have tried: Mek, D-Limonene, butanone, superglue and No More Nails. I have never got on with superglue (I can't get it to work) and would rather not use epoxy which I find messy in the extreme.

I would welcome suggestions. Ideally, I would like to use a solvent which will weld the parts together.

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Tim V
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby Tim V » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:48 am

I'm afraid to say I would use Epoxy!
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billbedford
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby billbedford » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:57 am

It's super glue for resin, but make sure you use a good quality one. Thiis the This is the one I use, but there are others.

Also check that whoever has done the casting has not used a greasy mould release.
Bill Bedford
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DougN
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby DougN » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:40 am

I have not used resin in at all but a local bus modeller swears by giving the castings a good wash first as some resin release agents do what they are supposed too! So it could be a good wash then try a good quality super glue.

I will be looking forward to your experiences as I have some resin to use in the near future :thumb
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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David B
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How does one use superglue?

Postby David B » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:20 pm

Thank you.

I will try some superglue - again. I have never managed to get a decent, reliable joint with the stuff. All mine have been brittle and fallen apart at the slightest touch. I have seen pictures where a repaired piece has been broken, but the repaired joint remained intact.

Superglue is a mystery to me, so how does one manage to get a good, strong and reliable connection with superglue? Is temperature important? How much should one use? Do you have to leave even the 'instant' ones for half an hour to properly harden? Are there different formulations for specific materials?

I note the comments about release agents. Will these go with ordinary detergent or need a solvent such as white spirit, alcohol or surgical spirit?

This is turning in to a thread on how to glue things.

dal-t
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby dal-t » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:01 pm

If you're new to superglue (cyano) you might find you get on better with a 'gel' rather than a liquid - it allows a (small) gap between parts and doesn't dry too instantly, unlike a good liquid. Remember it sets in the absence of air, so the parts need to be close-fitting, and to ensure a good joint keep them pressed together for a few moments until the cyano has gone off. As Bill says, do wash the parts to get rid of any release agent (as you should with polystyrene before applying cement) but a scrub in washing-up water is sufficient. You can use an accelerator/activator to help the cyano set - I use Holdtite, but many fellow plastic modellers (most of whom use resin accessories for conversions/enhancement, as I do) swear that a water mist is just as effective. Heat, even boiling water, will break down most cyanos, so you need to avoid mixing supergluing with soldering (or get all the soldering done first). Finally, make sure you are using 'fresh' glue - apparently, a tube is only 'good' for about 12 months after manufacture (so lots of pots in shops are already life-expired), and won't last more than 4 weeks after being opened. I've now stopped feeling guilty when I only use a small proportion of a tube, and happily start a new one every month (preferably bought from somewhere that has a high turnover, so it had a good chance of being relatively young when I acquired it). HTH.
David L-T

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:12 pm

Try a hot-melt glue gun. There are some small ones with a fine nozzle. Use it as you would solvent -- hold the parts together and run a fillet of glue down the back.

Hot-melt adhesive sticks almost anything to anything, does not dissolve plastics, and when stone cold any excess is easily carved away with a craft knife.

Just don't get it on your fingers -- it burns and can't be wiped off. A bowl of cold water is handy when doing fiddly work.

e.g. - http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/hot-melt- ... s/0104339/

regards,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

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Re6/6
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby Re6/6 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:54 pm

Regarding cleaning David, I did read somewhere (IIRC it was in some instructions from an early resin kit) that a good soak in vinegar works as a cleaner.

BB's advice would be the best and go with cyano. I would suggest that you try De-Luxe materials AD69 Roket Cyano Glue Gel (20g) and an accelerant spray. I use it in tree making for a very strong and instant bond when gluing delicate 'seamoss' stalks to armatures.

It is in fact a jelly which stays put exactly where you put it, even upside down.

I'll give you some on Monday. Bring the bits in and we'll have a go.
John

allanferguson
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby allanferguson » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:12 pm

I've always used 5 minute epoxy. I keep a supply of the plastic tops from Pringles tubes, which are convenient for mixing and keep the glue under control. A mini screwdriver for mixing, and another one for applying it. I never mix very much, because most of it is usually wasted anyway. For joints in resin wagons I use a very thin smear, press together and wipe off the excess. For some tasks, eg fitting brass compensation units, a blob of the stuff will give something for the brass to bed into. I have used it for any combination of resin, brass, whitemetal and plastics, and the only time it has failed me is when I neglected Bill's important advice, to thoroughly degrease the components. I often use Butanone, because it's handy on the workbench; but for plastic stuff I often use IPA. A scrub in detergent should work as well; I'm always frightened about scrubbing my models lest something falls off, and usually use a cotton bud.

Allan F

Philip Hall
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:43 pm

I believe that superglue (cyano) is the thing for resin. My favourite of this brew is Hafixs Professional Glue, which was recommended to me by Ivan Smith many years ago. I buy it online, usually a couple of bottles at a time so it's always there. I keep it on the bench and seems to last a very long time. I have never had a problem with it going off, it just gets quite thick as it gets old, (which turns it into a sort of gel, useful like that). I also use Deluxe Materials Roket Tricky Stick when bonding awkward materials (not just styrene, which it's intended for) and this seems to help the stuff achieve a good bond.

With any cyano, a close fitting joint is important, so if you can't achieve that, a gel type cyano is useful, as has been said. I always used to use Loctite Superglue and Loctite Superglue Gel, (simply because I used to work for the store that sells it and I have a retirement discount card!) but recently the formula has changed and it doesn't seem quite as good. I seem to recall that many, many years ago there was an excellent article in one of the older magazines about the use of cyano, and it spoke of holding joints together and introducing the glue into the joint and allowing it to wick in, as you would with solvent. I have a vague feeling it may have been written by Will Litchfield of this parish, but memory may be playing tricks...

As for epoxy, my favourite remains Plastic Padding Super Steel (the yellow tubes available from Halfords, accept no other) which is truly wonderful stuff. It mixes to a stiff dark grey paste which stays where it is put and goes off quite quickly, and because it's grey you can see where you've put it. With a cocktail stick for mixing it's very easy to use very small amounts, which might help you, David, with assembly of joints without glue going all over the place - although you will still have to hold the joint still for a few minutes until it starts to go off. Once it's started to cure you can cut any surplus away with a sharp blade, or trim it later with a blade or file. A great bonus is that you can squeeze an inch (say) of adhesive and hardener onto a square of glossy card (from old cereal packets, David Dornom's idea) and just mix a little as you need it. The remainder can be used over a period of days by removing the skin that forms on the grey adhesive. On plastics and suchlike it's not quite so good, but I always roughen the surfaces and sometimes even brush some of the aforementioned Tricky Stick, which seems to help even though it probably shouldn't.

Philip

John Fitton

Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby John Fitton » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:50 pm

My own experience with both epoxies and cyano glues is that cleanliness is next to godliness, and surface prep is key (pun?) to success. I have a large can of acetone handy, with cotton buds for doing the actual swabbing. Excellent for removing finger grease, and dries very quickly. I also use acetone for surface activation of plastic parts, where the join is not visible.

John Fitton.

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dcockling
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby dcockling » Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:00 pm

Re6/6 wrote:I did read somewhere that a good soak in vinegar works as a cleaner.


Malt, White Wine, Sherry, Raspberry? ;)

All the Best
Danny

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Will L
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby Will L » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:14 am

Philip Hall wrote:... I seem to recall that many, many years ago there was an excellent article in one of the older magazines about the use of cyano, and it spoke of holding joints together and introducing the glue into the joint and allowing it to wick in, as you would with solvent. I have a vague feeling it may have been written by Will Litchfield of this parish, but memory may be playing tricks...


Can't fault your memory Phil, that was 40 years ago in the Railway Modeller. That was before I had learned to solder properly and I quite happily stuck white metal kits together with the stuff. In those days super glue was always a very thin fluid with a very short shelf life (much improved if the shelf was in the fridge). Getting a good joint did take some skill, and to make it more user friendly the thinker ones were introduced, but as the polymer it produces is brittle, the best joint has the thinnest possible layer of glue, I was never sure if the result was a real improvement.

Summary
  • The joint must be clean once it is clean don't handle it again, I use what ever I'm melting polystyrene with at the moment as I have it in the tool box.
  • You want a good tight fit between the parts, as it goes off in the absence of air and ...
  • You run a thin version of glue into the joint by capillary action. Put a blob of glue on a bit of shiny card (cereal packet) and deliver small amount to the joint on a bit if thin wire/the smallest available jewellers screwdriver
  • Blow on the joint, because the stuff goes off in the absence of air and the presence of water.
Get it right and its already stuck. Getting too much on slows things down so if you can see an excess of glue, wick it of with the edge of a paper towel. As with all things practice makes perfect.

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Re6/6
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby Re6/6 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:03 am

dcockling wrote:
Re6/6 wrote:I did read somewhere that a good soak in vinegar works as a cleaner.


Malt, White Wine, Sherry, Raspberry? ;)

All the Best
Danny


Malt. None of your posh vinegars in our house! 8-)
John

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Paul Willis
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:15 am

Re6/6 wrote:
dcockling wrote:
Re6/6 wrote:I did read somewhere that a good soak in vinegar works as a cleaner.


Malt, White Wine, Sherry, Raspberry? ;)

All the Best
Danny


Malt. None of your posh vinegars in our house! 8-)


You don't need to be posh to need different vinegars...

I cooked a huge batch of homemade pork scratchings last night. Ingredients: pig skin (given for a donation in the charity box by a local butcher), fine salt, white wine vinegar. End result: delicious.

Just think of like keeping different types of flux to hand ;-)

Cheers
Flymo
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David B
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby David B » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:49 am

This is becoming an interesting and diverse thread! I recall Jim Summers referring some time ago to the breadth of material one can read and learn from on this Forum.

Thank you for the suggestions. My resin parts are about to be dunked in vinegar - I think the Management has cider and white wine varieties in the cupboard - and I have been offered help and a variety of superglues at our meeting of DRAG on Monday evening. I might come home that night with either a model or a lump of resin Watch this space!

I use C&L's yellow phosphoric acid flux when soldering brass. I always make sure that I wipe the whole area I want solder to with the flux, especially so if I am tinning an area. I used to find that if I missed a patch the solder rarely spread or adhered to that part, it not being properly cleaned. I wonder if wiping the resin with flux would do the same as cleaning with vinegar, both being acidic? I will experiment on some resin sprue.

billbedford
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby billbedford » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:16 am

David B wrote:I use C&L's yellow phosphoric acid flux when soldering brass. I always make sure that I wipe the whole area I want solder to with the flux, especially so if I am tinning an area. I used to find that if I missed a patch the solder rarely spread or adhered to that part, it not being properly cleaned. I wonder if wiping the resin with flux would do the same as cleaning with vinegar, both being acidic? I will experiment on some resin sprue.


A drop of washing-up liquid or liquid soap in your flux is likely to work much better than vinegar. I would also use the same sort of detergent for cleaning resin. Cheap liquid soap worked over with and old electric toothbrush works well for the 3D prints from Shapeways that are supplied covered with vegetable oils.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

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Andy W
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby Andy W » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:07 pm

Do Shapeways supply them in dripping for northern clients?
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Paul Willis
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Re: Which glue or solvent?

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:19 pm

Andy W wrote:Do Shapeways supply them in dripping for northern clients?


Every so often, I really do wish that the Forum had a <like> button :D

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Flymo
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